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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2008 09:49 AM |
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Probably not, there's still that -50% defense reduction. If you compare the damage each does right now -1 dmg will not solve much.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted September 26, 2008 10:58 AM |
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Quote:
Probably not, there's still that -50% defense reduction. If you compare the damage each does right now -1 dmg will not solve much.
then i have to make an test map, and test this and other changes. After that i will post replays.
Any other sugestion how to change stats or abilities AA or maybe MH to make them more equal
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2008 11:05 AM |
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Yes, remove force arrow and -1 init  Master hunters were already strong, it's the arcanes that are out of control.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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baklajan
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 26, 2008 12:27 PM |
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I guess AAs should have their initiative lowered by 1 and HPs by 4. Their defense-negating ability is way to strong, so they must be made less long-lasting.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2008 12:36 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 12:36, 26 Sep 2008.
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my own changes :
Arcane Archer Master Hunter
Atk: 6 5
Def: 3 4
Dmg: 8-9 5-8
Inn: 10 10
Spd: 5 5
Hlt: 14 14
Sht: 16 16
Abilit: Shooter Shooter
Force Arrow Double-Shot
No Range Pen. Warding Arrows
the arcane archer ignores 33% of the defense
range retaliations happen between the 2 shots of the master hunter, not after them (it's not a suggestion, it really works)
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted September 26, 2008 03:16 PM |
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What for to weaken Master Hunters? Besides double shot would affect nothing but attacking Succubi.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 26, 2008 03:27 PM |
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Arcane Archers should have the same damage as Master Hunters. The defense reduction is comparable to the "Warding Arrows" + "Double damage in range for MH" (since they have range penalty otherwise).
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 26, 2008 03:36 PM |
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Even without the defense reduction, Arcane Archers would still do a lot more damage from far range (30% more) because of their higher damage and no-range-penalty. Now, how many times would the Master Hunters have a chance to shoot in close range anyway, until they are killed (being so fragile)?
I still think that the defense reduction should be LOWERED to 20% and the damage as well (a little), not to mention the initiative.
Something like this:
Arcane Archer Master Hunter
Atk: 6 5
Def: 3 4
Dmg: 7-8 5-8
Ini: 10 10
Hlt: 14 14
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2008 05:51 PM |
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Quote:
What for to weaken Master Hunters? Besides double shot would affect nothing but attacking Succubi.
is it a problem?
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted September 26, 2008 06:03 PM |
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I just see no reason to change that.
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted September 27, 2008 02:55 AM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 14:43, 27 Sep 2008.
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I had this idea, when Ubi/Nival won't made a new patch for ToTE then up to ourselfs to make the game better when it is possible.
Then why not mod overpowered Arcane Archers 
The problem is how and what changes implement, that's why i took some of the ideas and battle tested them.
Done Battle testing the 4 presented possibilities to balance AA. The problem in balance is on the damage side, so it will be compared.
The 5 replays is battle Wyngaal(21 lvl) vs Laszlo (21lvl)(One of the save before the battle)same stats, troops quantity and quality, without luck on both sides, only the AA stats abilities change.
First Battle is normal, without any changes.(to compare the results of changes)
Results are: AA(Dmg) MH(Dmg)
Battle Griffin 621 235
Zealot 582 204
Crossbowmen 720 295
balanced aren't they
Second Battle is without Force Arrow ability.
Results are: AA(Dmg) MH(Dmg)
Battle Griffin 295 202
Zealot 285 220
Crossbowmen 421 281
Squire 118 82
Consript 460 338
Third Battle is with these changes:
AA ignores 10% Def
Arcane Archer Master Hunter
Atk: 6 5
Def: 5 4
Dmg: 7-8 5-8
Inn: 10 10
Spd: 5 5
Hlt: 14 14
Sht: 12 16
Results are: AA(Dmg) MH(Dmg)
Battle Griffin 312 287
Zealot 295 220
Crossbowmen 421 279
Forth Battle is based on Fauch change proposal, so
Arcane Archer Master Hunter
Atk: 6 5
Def: 3 4
Dmg: 8-9 5-8
Inn: 10 10
Spd: 5 5
Hlt: 14 14
Sht: 16 16
the arcane archer ignores 33% of the defense
Results are: AA(Dmg) MH(Dmg)
Battle Griffin 477 229
Zealot 471 237
Consript 631 330
Fifth Battle is based on Asheera change proposal, so
Arcane Archer Master Hunter
Atk: 6 5
Def: 3 4
Dmg: 7-8 5-8
Ini: 10 10
Hlt: 14 14
the arcane archer ignores 20% of the defense
Results are: AA(Dmg) MH(Dmg)
Battle Griffin 358 256
Zealot 326 213
Crossbowmen 468 322
Squire 139 98
Consript 515 346
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So IMO the second and the third solution is close to balance AA, they drasticly cut down super damage making AA a sniper(one shot one kill) and MH soldier equipt with AK41 The AA is for fighting against defnsive factions/players, because the range isn't the problem and the MH is for fighting against agressive factions/players that tend to come close so MH can fire without Range Penalty full revailing it's power.
What is your opinion
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 27, 2008 02:51 PM |
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Nice review there. What I find sad is that there isn't a single scenario in which the Master Hunter out damages the AA... kinda makes the whole "alternative upgrade" obsolete. Not that it's the only case .
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted September 27, 2008 02:55 PM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 14:57, 27 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
Nice review there. What I find sad is that there isn't a single scenario in which the Master Hunter out damages the AA... kinda makes the whole "alternative upgrade" obsolete. Not that it's the only case.
In proper change there is: When enemy will come to close and MH will fire without the penalty(think about Unicorn Bow), then they inflict 2x times more damage + possiblity of Warding Arrow and thats their power.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 27, 2008 03:17 PM |
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How many times will enemy get close to MHs before they are wiped out?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 27, 2008 05:02 PM |
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Quote:
How many times will enemy get close to MHs before they are wiped out?
During creeping Master Hunters would have their uses. They would be better than Arcane Archers to take down walkers for instance.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 27, 2008 06:01 PM |
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I think the third and fifth are best. As you can see AA still deals more damage but not insane like before! (AA should deal more damage to compensate for double damage at close range and Warding Arrows)
The second one is also pretty good, but they still have 11 Initiative
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted September 27, 2008 07:27 PM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 22:29, 05 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
The second one is also pretty good, but they still have 11 Initiative
And they should have such initiative because IMO the problem with AA is Damage output and only this should be reduced.
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dainbramaged
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 29, 2008 07:57 AM |
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What about defence negation only occurs when the knockback procs? AA's have pretty low hp/week, so the base chance is unlikely to be too high (as well as reducing their initiative and damage, and possibly attack/defence). This ends up being similar to the third change as above in terms of average damage, but more random.
As I see it, AA's should do more damage at long range, and be somewhat worse than MH's against high-defence targets at short range, while MH's do significantly more damage against low-defence targets at short range (as well as having their warding arrows).
Stats like:
Atk: 5
Def: 4
Dmg: 7-8
Int: 10
Spd: 5
Hp: 14
Shots: 16
No range penalty, modified force arrow (-50% defence takes effect only when knockback procs, chance factor of ~1-1.5), shooter, living.
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted September 29, 2008 08:08 AM |
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Changing Force Arrow like you propose is hard or maybe impossible at this moment to modify. But overall it is a good idea
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 29, 2008 01:27 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 13:27, 29 Sep 2008.
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It would make them weaker indeed, but I don't like the idea. Too much random IMO.
I mean, if it triggers the enemy is massacred, while if it doesn't the AA's will be weaker (in general) than MHs... I don't like so "critical" random things
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