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| Thread: mod for heroes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 08:39 AM |
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Edited by samiekl at 09:02, 08 Sep 2008.
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Before you said "Magic factions starting with advanced sorcery/logistics are too powerful." and now you are agree?
Where do you see i agree with that? Giving options for skill development is one thing, starting with an advanced must-skill is another. Please note the ADVANCED word in that. Zenithale, look, this mod is in the toh forum for a reason. You might be a good online player but you just have to prove it, since people who talk just to get busy are a lot around these forums. I saw you registered in toh, good, this is the first step. About the academy thingy. 99% from players will choose this build with them: 2 magic schools, logistics, enlightenment, sorcery. Many will choose a 3rd school if logistics isn't offered. I'm looking forward to play vs your Razzak and show you how far from good are 2 might skills for a wizard.
On the other hand, Jezebeth starting with advanced sorcery might be a good idea. Lethos and Havez are top heroes, why make them stronger?
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 08, 2008 09:11 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Before you said "Magic factions starting with advanced sorcery/logistics are too powerful." and now you are agree?
Where do you see i agree with that? Giving options for skill development is one thing, starting with an advanced must-skill is another. Please note the ADVANCED word in that. Zenithale, look, this mod is in the toh forum for a reason. You might be a good online player but you just have to prove it, since people who talk just to get busy are a lot around these forums. I saw you registered in toh, good, this is the first step. About the academy thingy. 99% from players will choose this build with them: 2 magic schools, logistics, enlightenment, sorcery. Many will choose a 3rd school if logistics isn't offered. I'm looking forward to play vs your Razzak and show you how far from good are 2 might skills for a wizard.
On the other hand, Jezebeth starting with advanced sorcery might be a good idea. Lethos and Havez are top heroes, why make them stronger?
Your vision is quite narrow samiekl in this argument... I see Razzak as the "Knight hero of academy", and defense is perfect for him imho. Zeni is right, that makes him special and very nice to play !
Also who says Wizards should be built with two magic schools ?! Sometimes it is a good idea to do that, but if you find the right spells in one magic school, there is no need for another one ! Keep in mind that might skills are passive, and spells are not, and you probably won't get to cast more than 6 spells in a battle, if fighting a fast town like sylvan.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 09:34 AM |
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Your vision is quite narrow samiekl in this argument... I see Razzak as the "Knight hero of academy", and defense is perfect for him imho. Zeni is right, that makes him special and very nice to play !
Also who says Wizards should be built with two magic schools ?! Sometimes it is a good idea to do that, but if you find the right spells in one magic school, there is no need for another one ! Keep in mind that might skills are passive, and spells are not, and you probably won't get to cast more than 6 spells in a battle, if fighting a fast town like sylvan.
I'm not saying defense is bad for academy, i'm saying that defense + leadership is. I also want to see battles where razzak is main hero, because i haven't seen a single one and i don't know anyone who'd choose him over other academy hero. I like playing academy with 3 magic schools, not 2, but this is just personal preference, and i believe that every player should play in his way. But 2 might skills for wizard, come on, your stats don't help you with that. I always cast more than 6 spells with academy, no matter the opponent. Against sylvan, if i survive 4 turns then the game is 90% mine, but not on 4 turns. I will cast many spells in this matchup.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 08, 2008 10:41 AM |
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Leadership makes perfect sense for Razzak, the reason behind this being artificial glory/divine guidance ... making those Razzak golems really godly creatures.
and, 6 spells, may be cast in less than 4 turns if you go for Mass Spells  , that's why I chose that number.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 10:45 AM |
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Edited by samiekl at 10:47, 08 Sep 2008.
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So... should Razzak be modified or not? And if yes, how and what ways for development this gives you?
Imo, leadership in the academy's case is good for empathy, not divine guidance or artificial glory.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 08, 2008 11:08 AM |
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I think he shouldn't be modified, but if I were to make a change I would give him advanced defense instead of Vitality.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 11:31 AM |
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Leadership makes perfect sense for Razzak.
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I think he shouldn't be modified, but if I were to make a change I would give him advanced defense instead of Vitality.
Make up your mind 
I want to see 2 players who won't rush to tavern and recruit the first hero if they get razzak by going random.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 08, 2008 11:39 AM |
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Well, his starting skills do make sense and after all he depends on golems being tough. But usually I prefer a hero that starts with sorcery or a magic skill, him and Faiz are my least favourite heroes in academy.
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 08, 2008 12:00 PM |
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Since I play only Arena lately, I would go for Razzak in 30% of the Academy games.
But for normal games, he is a great late-game hero, but people find him quite hard to creep with, and that is why he is a little overlooked... and Elvin is right a starting magic skill would be nice .
So without further delay, I give you the perfect Razzak :
Basic Artificier
Basic Defense
Basic Light Magic
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 12:09 PM |
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Quote:
Since I play only Arena lately, I would go for Razzak in 30% of the Academy games.
But for normal games, he is a great late-game hero, but people find him quite hard to creep with, and that is why he is a little overlooked... and Elvin is right a starting magic skill would be nice .
So without further delay, I give you the perfect Razzak :
Basic Artificier
Basic Defense
Basic Light Magic
The reason i proposed light in the first place is because i know people prefer to start with a magic school. I have no problem creeping with any hero and i'm sure all legionnaire-ranked players and up don't either. In my opinion starting with 2 skills is hard to manage. i gave him master of abjuration in order for him to get mass endurance to make up for defense. So in my opinion (again) i shot 2 rabbits in the same time. Also, a might skill will come up sooner or later (better later) even if it has 2% chances to pop up, and this gives you some options (well it depends on luck also, but...): attack or defense. Now, since it's almost sure you'll get + init miniarties, wouldn't you prefer attack instead? i surely would.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 01:48 PM |
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I have no problem creeping with any hero and i'm sure all legionnaire-ranked players and up don't either
Problem now is there is no legionaire and up players 
Top player is vangelis21 and wilgefors now
So that's big problem for all of us ?
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 02:03 PM |
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Noob
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted September 08, 2008 05:55 PM |
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Where do you see i agree with that? Giving options for skill development is one thing, starting with an advanced must-skill is another. Please note the ADVANCED word in that.
It was a question, see the '?'.
Btw I don't understand what advanced or basic change here.
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Lethos and Havez are top heroes, why make them stronger?
I never propose to make them stronger, but you seem don't like remove 1 skill point to the best heroes (Wyngaal for exemple).
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I'm looking forward to play vs your Razzak and show you how far from good are 2 might skills for a wizard.
If you want. What map? I don't know a lot of ToH maps (I play often on the ubi maps).
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I want to see 2 players who won't rush to tavern and recruit the first hero if they get razzak by going random.
There is me! Razzak is my favorite hero.
About his skills, maybe no change (Defense + toughness), or Defense + Leadership or Defense + Light. I think Razzak must keep Defense anyway.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 06:40 PM |
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Edited by okrane at 18:44, 08 Sep 2008.
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I was sure this would happen.
People start ranting about a change of their favorite hero just because they think him to be good as it is etc etc
And the snowtiest part is that Nival did a crappy job balancing and creating the game, but the diversity on this planet does not allow us to reach consensus about this.
One likes this, another likes that and slowly we accept and buy crap with heavy bucks. (this makes me think about all the crappy music we listen to these days and the way we glorify these so called stars) (Alizée, Zenithale?)
And the result it, even if we want to make a change we cannot do it, and we're damn stuck playing this poorly balanced game. I sure hope more players would get involved in this, but, as there is no coordinating and deciding factor here, it will all end up in chaos, and each player will go on playing the version he damn likes, which ultimately will lead to everyone playing Nival's version just for consensus. Man, people are such sheep...
So my advice is, let's give it a rest shall we. I'm sure that in a couple of months we'll all move to better games or activities...
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted September 08, 2008 07:13 PM |
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People start ranting about a change of their favorite hero just because they think him to be good as it is etc etc
Do you speak about me and Razzak? I don't think he will be better with Leadership. Just there are none wizard who can learn Artificial Glory. IMO Razzak don't need a change but it's just nice to have change sometimes.
Quote:
(Alizée, Zenithale?)
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted September 08, 2008 07:34 PM |
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Edited by okrane at 19:51, 08 Sep 2008.
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It was more of a general observation about how things go around here.
You don't like something in samiekl's mod, he doesn't like something in yours, etc etc, hence, none is being used generally. How about compromising?
About Razzak: Artificial Glory is maybe fun. Couple it with March of the Golems and you got yourself a good combination. Add defense and golems become strong. However, as Wizards dont have the necessary stats, and must rely on spells to do the trick, these uber-golems don't stand much chance against a charging Sylvan or Haven, neither can u rush them with such a might build.
This is just my 2c and it's based on playing ToH games. Maybe on normal maps he could work out better seing that armies don't get that big, nor heroes gain so much levels.
So, even if I think samiekl has a better poing here - light is a nice skill which u can build upon taking attack or defense as you please How about a compromise: Light and Defense for Razzak?
And by the way: More PRO players (as in 200+ games ) should say something here. What would you like on razzak, and all other sub-par heroes in order to use them.
If you don't care about diversity, then go ahead and mindlessly play your Wyngaal... no problem with me
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted September 09, 2008 01:58 PM |
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How about a compromise: Light and Defense for Razzak?
Why not, as I write before.
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If you don't care about diversity, then go ahead and mindlessly play your Wyngaal... no problem with me
 I like diversity, otherwise I wouldn't play with Razzak or full random.
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TWITCH|YouTube | NewArenas2023 MOD
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted September 09, 2008 02:18 PM |
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Dude, 2 skills are hard to manage. Point. Plus, academy needs summoning to creep good. it won;t make him preferred over other heroes because the perks will be flooded with defense and light perks which are far from good in the beginning. Playing ubi maps won't give you the picture, since toh maps are full of fights and tough creeps. It's something regular to have 4 fights per day with a hero. Without fast and good summoning and sorcery, academy can't kill lots of level 7 in week 2-3. It shouldn't be a matter of hero preference either, but a matter of playability. I'm fed up with playing max 4 heroes per faction because the other ones are clearly inferior in skills. And as much as i like diversity, i also like to win, and tell me who on earth will choose an inferior hero if he had to choose? And if you had to choose between attack or defense with academy, who in his right mind won;t choose attack (you have 3 archers and initiative!!!) over defense any time of the day? I exclude going vs sylvan here.
Zenithale, we can play any toh map with 2 towns with your mod. You'll pick Razzak and me any faction/hero you want from those not modified.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2008 04:55 PM |
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Unfortunately, the utopical idea of this mod far surpasses the notorious TOH MOD. Moreover, it's quite peculiar to observe how the relative strength of some heroes is evaluated. Conviction about Razzak's weakness is almost amusing hehe
As with any "unofficial" mods it's pointless to get agreement from the whole or even major part of community. But ANY TWO persons can always do so! Anyway, Sam, now you are stepping in the tested footprints of a fool trying to improve smth... Perhaps, it would be smarter to drop the idea or just play it with your buddies or you might be dissappointed by resistance.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2008 05:03 PM |
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Razzak is rox. Defence is very good skill for academy. Razzak with golems and master gremlens can creep very well too.
Stop blame poor Razzak
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