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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: New item class - idea
Thread: New item class - idea
Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted December 09, 2001 06:17 PM bonus applied.

New item class - idea

New item class – idea

So far we have the artifacts/relics, spell scrolls and potions which act as one-use spells. While the arties and relics can be worn only byt the Heroes, the potions can be used by the creatures as well (according to Jeff Blattners’ gamespot video interview), to let them cast spells if they are without hero in the battle. But why there are no items that can be used by creatures permanently, not temporary.

I was thinking in this direction. New item type – Banner. How will it be used by the creatures, and what does it do? Since there are creature specialties, some of them overlap (i.e. first strike), and some creatures have more than one specialtie, there can be also another specialty  - banner carrier. Certain  humanoid creatures would have this special ability. And this special ability gives them one slot, in which this banners can be placed. For example, this banners ca be used by: champions, pikemen, crusaders, orcs, ogres, berserkers, bandits, dwarves, elves, minotaurs. Of course, a little bit of extra art will be needed, since these banners should be visible on the battlefield. But that’s not hard to be implemented. Every creature will carry the banner on the back (much like the Japanese warriors did in medieval Japan). This will also give cooler look to the creature.

There can be several banner types, and all of them will have different effect. For example, the bannered stack:
- deal maximum damage
- receive minimum damage
- receive morale boost +1 or +2
- receive luck boost +1 or +2
- receive haste boost +1 or +2
- receive mobility boost +3 or +5
- receive total defence boost +10%
- receive defence from arrows boost +15%
- receive defence from melee boost +15%
- receive attack boost +15%
- receive anti magic ability for the whole battle duration
- receive magic mirror ability for the whole battle duration
- receive fire shield ability for the whole battle duration
- receive extra strike ability
- receive dispel beneficial spells ability
- receive no retaliation ability
- receive teleport ability
- receive regeneration ability
- receive mana draining ability
- receive unlimited retaliation ability
- receive giant slayer ability
and so on, and so on …

Maybe some of this specialties are too powerful, but I used them to picture the use of this banners. I think that this creature feature will add spice to the game. This will be balanced trough the fact that there’s only one banner slot per creature with this ability (or there may be one unit with two banner slots). And additional balance will be made trough the item portion on the map. This banners should be really rare in the maps.

Few ways to acquire these banners:

1. Banner location – Temple
Here you fight the guards, 33%chance for Angels, 33%chance for Devils, 33%chance for Black Dragons, 33%chance for Faerie Dragons... If you defeat them, you get one banner. If you fought against Angels you get - Banner of Bless (maximum damage), Banner of Leadership (leadership boost) etc. If you fought against Devils you get – Banner of Hellfire (fire shield), Banner of Teleportation (teleport), Banner of Untouchability (no retaliation) etc. If you fought aagainst Black Dragons you get – Banner of Reflex (extra strike), Banner of Anti Magic (anti magic) etc. If you fought Faerie Dragons you get – Banner of Luck (luck boost), Banner of Spell Reflection (magic mirror), Banner of Spell Negation (dispel magic) etc. Powerful defenders will mean that you can’t get those Banners easy.

2. Banner location – Black Market/Artifact Merchants
There should be small percentage chance for banner item to appear at the Black Market/ Artifact Merchants location. And the Banner should be really, really expensive.

3. Banner location – Dragon utopia
Small percentage chance to appear in the Dragon Utopia.

Note: These banner items should be treated as Relic class items, because they can have significant influence over big battles. This Relic class tretatment is needed for the map editor of course.

Banner battlefield representation: All the banners should be same in appearance – long stick that arises from the carriers back, and on the top square flag. But they should be different in terms of colour (similar to the spell schools), and every banner should have different symbol. Hellfire Banner can have some sort of fire-like symbol, while Leadership banner can have Angels Wings sybol, etc.

Hmm, what do you think?

____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 09, 2001 09:12 PM
Edited By: Djive on 9 Dec 2001

Quote:
But why there are no items that can be used by creatures permanently, not temporary.


It could be difficult for a player to get an overview on which creatures stacks carry beneficial items, so some form of visual indication is needed (the mini-icon of the creature would have to show that the stack carries a banner). As long as we limit the number of items to one the idea shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

The idea about banner is good, but I would like the items that affect the creatures to be tailored to specifically suit a certain type of creatures and not just any creature. I'd also prefer that the 'banner' bearer is not visible to the enemy.

As an alternative or complementary proposal:
My artifact idea for the banner would be that the Banner could be carried by a Hero, and that the bonuses from the banner affects all creatures within the command-radius of that particular hero. Banners could then be artifacts or relics as appropriate. The abilities that the Banner gives could be similar to the ones you mention.

On how to acquire Banners. I'm not in favour of the Temples idea. You don't want to fight devils or angels to visit a temple. That would ruin that map location.

In my mind many of the items you detail don't really qualify as being relics, they'd be normal artifacts, thought the most powerful would be relics. So I don't see why "Banners" couldn't be handled as normal artifacts.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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vladpopescu79
vladpopescu79


Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
posted December 09, 2001 10:27 PM

Good idea, banners...
They remind me of the charms from the diablo 2 expansion...
The locations are good too, maybe some changes.
But they shouldn't be worn on long sticks if you ask me...they should be worn around the shoulders.
____________
MANE, TEKEL, FARES

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 09, 2001 10:34 PM
Edited By: Djive on 9 Dec 2001

Another new artifact type idea

Another new idea - artifacts that works in a radius around the hero.

This idea is simple, and is similar to the alternative I suggested for the banner. This artifact either works in a set radius around the hero or could in some cases be decided by the command radius of the hero, whatever is more appropriate. Most of the effects Svetac suggested for the banner could be applicable for these artifacts.

A few more examples on artifacts:

Cross - At end of each round all undead creature on the battlefield receive damage depending on their distance to the hero with the Cross. The damage is dependent on the square of the distance. Adjacent creatures receive 100% damage, if two tiles away receive 25% damage, three tiles away receive 9% damage, and so on. (Undead heroes cannot carry this item. There could also be the correspond item which kills living creatures.)

Edited to add: 100% damage was not meant to mean destroy the full stack, instead it was in relation to the damage rating of the cross which could be perhaps somewhere between 100 and 1000 damage. Of course, if a really cruel relic is desired it could be in relation to the hitpoints of the stack.

Amulet - Bestows 25% damage resistance to all forms of damage (physical and magical). The bonus is 20% for adjacent creatures, and is then reduced by 5% for every tile the distance increases. The bad things is that the effect will also apply to enemy creatures within the radius of effect.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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vladpopescu79
vladpopescu79


Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
posted December 09, 2001 10:51 PM

An apendix to the cross...ehich is a great idea (though my vampires wouldn't like it):
The cross could be an artifact manufactured in the town's blacksmith.And you could buy it like a ballista, lets say.But it would be a lot more expensive.It should also be an antidote for this.The necros could also develop an item to counter-balance this, though I didn't imagine one yet...I'll think about it...
____________
MANE, TEKEL, FARES

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Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted December 09, 2001 11:51 PM

Quote:


In my mind many of the items you detail don't really qualify as being relics, they'd be normal artifacts, thought the most powerful would be relics. So I don't see why "Banners" couldn't be handled as normal artifacts.



In my opinion, if you have Crusader who is high level creature with "double attack" special power, and give him banner that will grant him "no retaliation" is something really powerful that can turn the tide of a big battle. And that's why this banner should be hard to find.

As for the Temple, I think that it can be called some other way. It's not neceserally to be called Temple.

About the idea of Heroes carrying banners. I think that the Banner item should be carateristic only for the creatures. And the banners you suggest for the heroes should be called other way. They should be new artifact class or something like that. I really love the Cross example. That would be cool. But Cross is not banner (flag). So they should be called other way. Or should be normal artifacts, but there should be an extra slot on the heroes to carry them.

But such artifacts with the powers of the banners that I mention in my original post would be too powerful. Having that cross is one thing. But if you have artifact that grants "no retaliation" to all the creatures within certain radius - now that's unbalancing. As for the bnouses of certain % to the attack or the defence of the creatures in the hero radius - I think that such artifacts will be included in the game.
____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 10, 2001 12:05 AM

Yes, Svetac a handfull of your suggested Banners were very powerful relics. No retaliation, anti-magic, magic mirror, fire-shield, and regeneration are all very powerful to name some of them. The majority of your suggestions was however less powerful and would perhaps be minor or major artifacts only.

Relics on the other hand, should always be customized by the map makers. It's likely going to be a very bad practise to generate a relic at random.

Quote:
As for the bonuses of certain % to the attack or the defence of the creatures in the hero radius - I think that such artifacts will be included in the game.


There will probably be something like that, though if this power will extend to creatures within the radius or just to the hero carrying it is another question. There could possible be both types, but you never know.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted December 10, 2001 03:46 PM

Why I think there will be such artifacts? The artifacts that make the hero fight better on the battlefield will be connected with the combat skill. But as far as the skills go, there will be artifacts that can be connected with every skill. So artifacts that are boosting the leadership, army attack, army defence will be connected with the tactics skill, and I'm sure there will be such artifacts in the game.
____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 11, 2001 11:32 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Djive on 15 Dec 2001

Place related artifacts

Another new artifact idea - place related artifacts.

So far the only place related artifacts we have is related to towns like the Grail. Wouldn't it be cool if we could have artifacts related also to other map locations?

Note: These items don't need to be equipped to work. It's assumed that the armies will use it if it's in the backpack when they visit the relevant places. Since artifacts may have multiple properties, the detailed properties could be one of several.

Like the following:
Pendant of Faith: Doubles the bonuses obtained in Temples.

Talisman: Doubles all Luck bonuses obtained from adventure map locations.

Badge of Courage: Doubles all Morale bonuses obtained from adventure map locations.

Grimoire: Every time a hero encounters a spell which s(he) may not cast yet, the spell will appear in the Grimoire. Once a spell is transcribed to a proper Spellbook the spell is removed from the Grimoire. (This action could be executed by moving the Grimoir over the spellbook.) Note: this item could be traded between heroes.

Book of Learning: Reduces the cost and time it takes to study skills on adventure locations.


Edited to add a few ideas on my previous artifact class idea:

Sword of Terror:
Any hostile creature adjacient to hero has a 50% chance to freeze and lose their next turn. Two tiles away, the chance is 25%, and at three tiles 10%.

Greater Eye of Stoning:
Any adjacent creaturs have a 20% chance to be turned into stone for three turns.

Wand of Zapping:
Target creature stack has a chance (depending on distance to hero) to be turned into a stack of big slimy Toads for three turns. Toads can't cast spell, or use special abilities or artifacts, in ermine they are quite big and their long slimy tongues are a killer...
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted December 20, 2001 08:09 AM

Offtopic: Bonuses Applied

First, Svetac's idea of an artifact only usable by a creature stack with no hero is intriguing. The subsequent discussion helps flesh the idea out.

Second, Djive's post managed to brighten up a very miserable day. Not only are there some good ideas there (which is kind of what I'm accustomed to seeing from the Zapper of Toads), but I almost swallowed my pipe laughing at the final entry.

Keep up the great work, you two.
____________
Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"

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Xenophanes
Xenophanes


Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
posted December 21, 2001 07:58 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 21:00, 27 Nov 2008.

This whole banner thing sounds like an artifact; Almost like the Jewish Arc of the Covenant. That's actually what the grail in Homm3 is, the Arc, but it's called the Grail. The Arc would actually be used in battle, though.



Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
____________
<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>

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