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| Thread: British Fritzl (!) jailed |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted November 26, 2008 06:47 PM |
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Oh! C'mon!...
Wait! I just realized I was about to make one of my hated buzzkilling politacal obviusness posts! You know, the kind that people either ignore or read and then think the conversation is boring and stupid! This time, I will shut the **** up and let you discuss your problem that has such an obvius sulotion.
Wow! Close one... I nearly killed this thread!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 26, 2008 07:11 PM |
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As far as I know, God doesn't come down to take his life, so SOMEONE must take his life. So that SOMEONE must be violent, as I don't know any kind if killing without violence.
The problem with violence is that innocent people are killed/maimed by it. But if the violent person has killed somebody, then he forfeited his right to not be killed. He is guilty, and those who punish the guilty are innocent (as long as their punishment isn't worse than what the guy did, of course, and as long as they're authorized to do so.)
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I'm pretty sure people will still consider him an ***hole after that
That's their problem, isn't it? 
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Pay the janitor? What about paying the gas chamber and cleaning after them? Or are you suggesting a method which disintegrates him?
How about he forcing him to work to pay for the cost of the bullet and the burial?
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted November 26, 2008 07:16 PM |
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The problem with violence is that innocent people are killed/maimed by it. But if the violent person has killed somebody, then he forfeited his right to not be killed. He is guilty, and those who punish the guilty are innocent (as long as their punishment isn't worse than what the guy did, of course, and as long as they're authorized to do so.)
I didn't say 'innocent' or 'guilty' I said violence, and now you're just arguing for the sake of it since that has one definition
Anyway I got your point. But yes he might have forfeited his right to life -- that doesn't mean you have to torture him, but just take it easy like a simple shot in the head or chop his head off.
and sometimes they are convicted wrongly you know? you need more reality check. 
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How about he forcing him to work to pay for the cost of the bullet and the burial?
And if he doesn't want? You kill him anyway
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kipshasz
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Elvin's Darkside
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posted November 26, 2008 07:34 PM |
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Forcing inmates to work is a good way to boost economy. Free(minus the food cost) workforce. I totaly agree that they are not worth taxpayers' (in other words our) money. In my country prison food is better then the one they serve in schools and universities(you should visit KTU cafeteria,the food sucks). Do they deserved it? NO! Our goverment feeds our nation's carbage better than our growing minds of(possible) geniuses. For inmates there should be dried bread and water only(and a small portion of meat on sundays) and nothing more. And for the worst criminals an arrow to the forehead.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted November 26, 2008 07:41 PM |
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Just a small thing:
prisoners are given good food and other privileges, if they are a good boy. That's how you prevent prison riots. The only other way is by starving them and having a small army in each prison to shoot each riot down.
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mvassilev
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posted November 26, 2008 07:47 PM |
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I didn't say 'innocent' or 'guilty' I said violence, and now you're just arguing for the sake of it since that has one definition
Okay, fine. Call the death penalty violent. It doesn't make it wrong, though.
If he just killed someone (without torturing them), then he's forfeited his right to life. If he tortured someone and then killed them, then he's forfeited both his right to life and right to not get tortured.
And yes, sometimes they are convicted wrongly. But we're talking about an ideal situation here.
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Eccentric Opinion
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted November 26, 2008 07:55 PM |
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Just a small thing:
prisoners are given good food and other privileges, if they are a good boy.
thats the way in western countries,but not in the province of Europe. Well in my country inmates that are in jail for the rest of their life get a PC with internet(!) connection. And besides,every one can pretend to be good in front of a guard.
Oh,i found another use for inmates! Targets for target practice! Shooting animals to get better-cruel and inhuman. Paper targets? Not serious. So... LIVING HUMAN TARGETS! Ok,maybe its over the top abit...
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted November 26, 2008 08:03 PM |
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western countries,but not in the province of Europe
What?
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TheDeath
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posted November 26, 2008 08:12 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:13, 26 Nov 2008.
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Oh,i found another use for inmates! Targets for target practice! Shooting animals to get better-cruel and inhuman. Paper targets? Not serious. So... LIVING HUMAN TARGETS! Ok,maybe its over the top abit...
Fate isn't without sense of irony, who knows when you'll get framed for something or maybe regret it. 
I don't know what's more sick: what he did or this.
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DagothGares
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posted November 26, 2008 08:17 PM |
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No, I think it's a perfect system. Kipshasz can be the first one to test this glorious thing  
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kipshasz
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Elvin's Darkside
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posted November 26, 2008 08:37 PM |
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No, I think it's a perfect system. Kipshasz can be the first one to test this glorious thing
ok  i just need a few boxes of vodka(to numb my senses) hey look! Someone is pointing a laser at my forehead. I wonder why...
btw,the province of Europe is Lithuania,soon to become United States of Maxima.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 26, 2008 08:40 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 20:41, 26 Nov 2008.
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Castration doesn't work against rapists, btw.
Technically it should. No more hormones = no sexual moods, ever. No more arousement = no more rapes.
Btw, on the argument that torture or death = inhumane, I personally don't think if anyone commits inhumane acts, he or she doesn't deserve to be treated in humane ways either. Eye for an eye...
If you should you have no respect for basic human rights, you shouldn't be allowed to call on them either.
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TheDeath
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posted November 26, 2008 08:40 PM |
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I heard some people don't rape for sexual moods 
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 26, 2008 08:43 PM |
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Lemme put it more crudely No stiffy = no tool to rape...
Granted I heard some people do it for feeling powerfull, which is a testimoney to how pathetic human beings are
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kipshasz
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Elvin's Darkside
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posted November 26, 2008 08:56 PM |
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Lemme put it more crudely No stiffy = no tool to rape...
Granted I heard some people do it for feeling powerfull, which is a testimoney to how pathetic human beings are
yeah, we are pathetic. Not some,but most people rape to feel powerfull. Pitifull,and disgracefull. Yeah no stiffy=no rape tool. And no peeing tool either but thats their problem.
I wonder why no one mentioned drunk drivers. These sometimes are the worst murderers(and kamikazes too sometimes)
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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JollyJoker
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posted November 26, 2008 09:37 PM |
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Let me tell you that a more sinister rape - not the drunken rape that happens behind some festival tent, but the manic rape of the sex killer - does NOT need a penis. It cn be done with an object, so castration doesn't help.
What some people here have to realize, the Rothbard followers as well, is the said fact that while recompensation in case of a monetary loss is well and good, but that the "loss of right" has nothing to do with it.
In case of stealing of properts the idea is NOT that the perpetrator will be stolen from as well. The idea is that he/she makes up for it.
There is nothing wrong with that idea for heavier crimes. But suddenly it's all about "doing to the perpetrator what he did" (and the only reason for that is: THAT WILL TEACH HIM A LESSON!) However, it won't, and is no deterrent either (you can see that with each statistic about the death penalty), and killing the perp won't pay his debt.
Or can you tell me why the killing of this guy would cancel the debt he ows his children and grandchilden (and wife an family and society)?
Can you?
Basically EVERY unjust deed creates a debt and the aim of a society must be to help everyone repay that debt/getting it payed back.
Just to give you an example: Don't you think that a heavy criminal might pay his or her debt by simply donating as much blood as possible (if healthy)? 1 year; 5 years; 10 years? Don't you think they might repay by donating a kidney - one seems to be enough and people in the 3rd world so it all the time. By being forced to donate their complete body in case of their death?
Even if you have no feelings whatsoever for a criminal, don't you think it would be better if they dies for some good? Donating a heart? A liver? As I said, testing drugs? Or maybe going on suicide missions to rescue hapless victims of one or another catastrophe?.
Let's say you drive drunk, kill a child and flee - hit and run. You are just a normal guy and don't want any trouble. The child is dead, so what. However, you get caught. Does it make sense to go to jail? Nah. You KNOW, you botched it. You know you did something wrong. You need a chance to MAKE UP FOR IT. The child is dead, its family unhappy - but maybe you can make up for it. Adopt a hopeless child, save other lives.
THAT is the idea of recompensation in this case. Not blind punishment.
Monsters are STILL humans. We just were lucky not to grow up under circumstances that might have made us so as well.
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mvassilev
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posted November 26, 2008 10:04 PM |
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Or can you tell me why the killing of this guy would cancel the debt he ows his children and grandchilden (and wife an family and society)?
There is nothing that can be done to truly cancel that debt. However, it is desirable to get as close to repaying it as possible (if that's what the victim and/or his family wants). The closest thing he can do is to be killed. He took a life. Therefore a life is taken from him.
While your viewpoint has great merit, it has one significant flaw: society has very little to do with it. If I steal $10 and then donate $10 to charity, I have not repaid my debt - I still owe $10 (plus some extra) to the guy I stole it from.
While society is affected by the murder, it affected only slightly by the murder per se. It would, of course, be much more strongly affected if it did not punish the murderer and allowed people to murder with impunity. The person most affected by the crime (and, therefore, the person that the criminal owes a debt to) is the victim. If the victim is dead, then the debt is transferred to his family (or is carried out as is directed in the victim's will).
If the criminal somehow took society's kidney, then he would owe a kidney to society. But he didn't. He took the life of a private individual. Therefore, he owes that individual 1 life. Seeing as how the individual is not capable of receiving that debt, then his relatives are the ones who receive it (in a manner of speaking). Thus, the criminal should perform reparations (the top limit of which would be the harm performed + enforcement costs) to the victim or the person who inherits the victim's debts and assets. (Of course, the victim or his family can chose to forgive the criminal. While there is a maximum, there is no minimum.)
If you kill a child, then adopt one, you have not recompensed anybody.
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TheDeath
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posted November 26, 2008 10:08 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 22:09, 26 Nov 2008.
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The closest thing he can do is to be killed. He took a life. Therefore a life is taken from him.
If that's the closest then I challenge your rationality.
I am a guy. My daughter's been killed by some wacko. Tell me something, logically or rationally, how EXACTLY does murdering him makes this debt of my daughter any closer to me? I mean, I lost her, that's it. Killing him won't bring her back. But that's not even the point. It's not going to give me ANYTHING at ALL that even makes at least 0.000001% of the debt being paid. I get absolutely no benefit from killing him -- apart from (of course) making sure he won't murder again, which is like I said "stopping" him (with which I agree if he is especially dangerous!). But that's it, just simple stopping/killing him -- if he tortured my daughter what the hell does torturing him bring me to pay that debt?
Yeah it brings me the "get closer to him" mentality
a negative gift I must say...
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mvassilev
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posted November 26, 2008 10:13 PM |
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Tell me something, logically or rationally, how EXACTLY does murdering him makes this debt of my daughter any closer to me?
Obviously, if you feel that way, then you can forgive him (partially or fully). Indeed, since the payment of a life is the greatest payment of all, you can exact some other payment, if you prefer. But I know that if I had a daughter and she was killed, I'd want the guy dead. It's an emotional benefit (although a very different one than the one that made him murder! [assuming that an emotional benefit is what made him murder]).
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Gnoll_Mage
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posted November 26, 2008 10:18 PM |
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Although I'm not sure about the death penalty in a `perfect` world, I'm pretty against it in real life - unfortunately, we have no way of knowing for sure that somebody is guilty, and I have no desire to kill innocent people. (Although of course, this is a personal thing in a way, because if I ever go to prison, I probably won't be guilty. That's kind of a problem when discussing justice actually - I find it impossible to imagine how anybody could do e.g. what's mentioned in the first post.)
And, to those of you who approve of the death penalty - would you be able to stand in front of the criminal and pull the trigger, etc.?
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