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| Thread: Put and end to racism |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted November 30, 2008 08:12 PM |
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Put and end to racism
After HOMM4 we saw HOMM5. What i saw was a game where i couldn't mix factions as freely as i could in the other games.
Nationalism is getting a strong hold when it's also affecting games
I liked the way that i could just use the troops from the newly invaded city, so i could keep my crusade going and didn't need to go back after more troops from my starting town.
In HOMM5 I couldn't use the newly conquered towns units if it was a "evil" town. Then my troops would lose a massive amount of morale. Of course troops lost morale when fighting alongside other factions and undeads but not as much.
As another new mechanism we saw the racial skill... mostly this skill only worked for the soldiers from the hero's own faction. That meant that it wasn't enough having creatures from the same faction. Your hero also needed to be from that faction.
You also got a special mark above your dwellings and mines which told what faction you started with.
I don't like all of this because it ruins my strategy and i could make some cool armies in HOMM3 and 4. I can't do the same in number 5
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted November 30, 2008 08:13 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 20:14, 30 Nov 2008.
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I don't like strange mixes of armies so I prefer the way Heroes 5 works.
Some mixes may be possible but not, for example, Inferno with Haven... that doesn't make any sense at all (priests along side with devils...)
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted November 30, 2008 08:16 PM |
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Hmm... same as Asheera here...
I would however, like to see more types of neutrals that go well with any faction, and that are easily recruitable throughout the map.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted November 30, 2008 08:25 PM |
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I'm kind of neutral here. On one side, I think Asheera and Adrius are right. Some Factions just do not at all fit, and mainly Inferno and Necropolis jsut need to give other factions' units massive moral loss, especially haven...but on the other hand I see stankelbenets point here. I also disliked the racial skills because they were so fixed...and so unbalanced!!! I for example think that Sylvans skill is completely not worth being skilled...I just do not liek it only to be strong agaisnt some certain creatures, when you can have things like the Haven-ability - in fact, with enough money, you won't have any more low-level creatures but tons of mid-tier creatures!!! Fortunately you cannot upgrade your priests to angels
Yet I think the word racism is a bit too harsh 
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 30, 2008 08:25 PM |
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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted November 30, 2008 08:35 PM |
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For me.. I agree with stankelbenet. I like the racial abilities in Heroes 5 because it does add more strategy and does make factions more unique, but the game does force you to stick with only one type of faction in an army. And the loss of morale is faaar too severe. It makes the Variations of strong armies limited.
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted November 30, 2008 08:52 PM |
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strategy or realism
I've read a lot of discussions about if the game should be realistic or if it should focus on the strategy. I think I have the strategy on my side...
I will agree to what you say about necropolis. They've always been outsiders who cant spell friendship, but inferno shouldn't be as EMO as the dead. Mostly because they can't turn followers into their kind like necropolis does
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zamfir
Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
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posted November 30, 2008 08:58 PM |
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I like most the H5 way (and I played all games in the series; I know what I say).
The fact that each faction has it's very own skill (benefficial only for creatures from that faction), it's very own special building, and even it's very own Combat Theme, Tavern Theme etc., only adds to the diversity of the game.
All factions are pretty unique and, in a bigger or lesser degree, this guarantees a different gaming experience for each faction. If I play Academy, it's not at all like playing Sylvan. Not to mention that differences between hero classes are enormous (and for the aforementioned reasons this is good).
So I say Nival should continue on this line in the followin installements of the game (I just can't wait for H6 .
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5 Times TV
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted November 30, 2008 09:05 PM |
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Zamfir said it: Diversity!
I'd still like more neutrals though, for as long as they don't become so good that all factions must use them... that would hurt the diversity.
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stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
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posted November 30, 2008 09:33 PM |
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different gaming experience
I didn't say that the factions should be the very same but i said they shouldn't deny teamwork with other factions.
I think you would get a lot more different game experiences if the towns around you also affected your gameplay instead of just one experience for each faction.
In HOMM3 i once started with a fortress. I invaded a tower. Not a very good combination. Fortress is defense and tower magic. But i found a way to make the two factions co-op and that really gave me a new game experience. I could do the same with all factions except necropolis. => a lot of game experiences
When I tried that out in HOMM5 it didn't work. All my creatures refused to move and i was doomed to play the sylvan way EVERY time i chose to play with sylvan
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 30, 2008 09:34 PM |
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Sorry, but I don't think the H3 nostalgic crowd can convince me of anything.
Excessive realism can be annoying, I'm not going to argue that, but allowing factions to all merge like pen pals without morale penalties is bad for the strategy of the game as well. Once you have multiple towns in large games, instead of just taking the largest of each stack from each faction and riding around with a gigantic army with a gigantic hero, you're forced to take on secondary armies and secondary heroes that do more than just follow the hero around and pick up resources and other mundane stuff.
As an added thought to this that goes along with the problem of gigantic armies, I've thought since the day I bought the original H5 that the Necropolis special building should be changed. When I first read the ability my mouth dropped. Being able to convert units to undead free of charge is so unbelievably unfair. That overpopular faction is strong as it is. Luckily it usually doesn't matter in the typical 1v1 multiplayer match, which is good since out of the 8 different factions, probably 1/3rd of the people I fight are necropolis.
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MattII 
Legendary Hero
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posted November 30, 2008 09:39 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:44, 30 Nov 2008.
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I can see both sides of this, and strangely enough I can agree with both sides as well, because stankelbenet isn't complaining about the diversity per-se (at least, I don't think so), he's complaining about diversity being too 'fixed' in regards to the races (eg, only Academy troops can take advantage of Artificier, only Haven troops can benefit from Training, etc.).
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted December 01, 2008 09:25 AM |
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Quote:
Zamfir said it: Diversity!
Diversity? Yes. Diversity is good. But If diversity goes along with almost the same amount of restrictment it turns counterproductive. And though the racial skills are a good idea HoMM5 is more restricted than HoMM3. In HoMM3 you were at least able to choose between two hero types per town and suffered less morale penalty. So I definately see stankelbenets point here.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted December 01, 2008 09:58 AM |
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Rascism?
What the HELL does Heroes V (or any other Fantasy game) have anything to do with Rascism?
Okay, just make a non-rascist town
lvl 1: Dwarf
lvl 2: Skeleton
lvl 3: Elf
lvl 4: Human Priest
lvl 5: Demon
lvl 6: Angel
lvl 7: Dragon
Let's see how much you'll enjoy that
(and you'll probably find that rascist too, as I put the poor Dwarves, Undead and Elves as weaker than Humans, *yawn*)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
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posted December 01, 2008 11:05 AM |
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Quote:
I can see both sides of this, and strangely enough I can agree with both sides as well, because stankelbenet isn't complaining about the diversity per-se (at least, I don't think so), he's complaining about diversity being too 'fixed' in regards to the races (eg, only Academy troops can take advantage of Artificier, only Haven troops can benefit from Training, etc.).
I think being able to use racial skills on other faction's creatures is a good idea. Skills like Articficer, Avenger, and Runelore, if they can be used on Stronghold creatures it will surely lead to a new way to battle. Other racial skills cannot (or doesn't make sense) be "universalized", however. Like Gating and Necromancy, they don't really work on other factions...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 01, 2008 11:17 AM |
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Quote:
Other racial skills cannot (or doesn't make sense) be "universalized", however. Like Gating and Necromancy, they don't really work on other factions...
Necromancy certainly couldn't work with any other faction, and Gating would be of limited utility (only usable on 'beasts', if that).
Training, could be more useful though, I mean, Sylvan, Dungeon and Fortress have more than two 'racial' units.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 01, 2008 12:02 PM |
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Quote:
Sorry, but I don't think the H3 nostalgic crowd can convince me of anything.
Excessive realism can be annoying, I'm not going to argue that, but allowing factions to all merge like pen pals without morale penalties is bad for the strategy of the game as well. Once you have multiple towns in large games, instead of just taking the largest of each stack from each faction and riding around with a gigantic army with a gigantic hero, you're forced to take on secondary armies and secondary heroes that do more than just follow the hero around and pick up resources and other mundane stuff.
Btw. - to the original poster: In case you forgot, Heroes 3 and Heroes 4 had morale penalties for mixing armies just like Heroes 5 has. Heroes 3 might have been slightly less strict on the subject, but then, the morale system back then was completely different (you couldn't go above +3 for one), so it doesn't really compare.
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What will happen now?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 01, 2008 01:17 PM |
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I do not agree with the main post.
H3 didnt make any sense at all. H5 does.
I dont count towns such as Necropolis etc since I consider all Undead and Demon the same speices/race.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 01, 2008 01:21 PM |
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The problem with H5 mixing isn't the morale penalty troops get from mixing. It's that the bloody heroes give morale penalties too! 
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted December 01, 2008 01:30 PM |
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Racism is everywhere.
The game would not be realistic without racism.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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