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baklava
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posted January 06, 2009 08:59 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 21:13, 06 Jan 2009.
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What free world?
The message to the free world apparently depends on the situation.
Countries with separatist movements could be divided in four classes:
Class 1
Example: Serbia and Kosovo
The West decides to support the separatists and "the right of self-determination of every people". It helps Kosovo.
Class 2
Example: Israel and Palestine
The West decides to support the "international law and the territorial sovereignty of every nation". It helps Israel.
Class 3
Example: China and Tibet
The West would like an independent Tibet, calling for the "right of self-determination and freedom" argument, however China proves to be quite a complicated thing to bypass. The West lodges a few protests, but does nothing.
Class 4
Example: Russia and Georgia
Again, the West protests, underlining things such as "territorial sovereignty and integrity", but however does not react as it would if a smaller country was in question.
Separatists in both Kosovo and Palestine did some... bad things, as did the mother countries of those regions (Serbia and Israel). Discussions about self defense or lack of choice are obsolete since the West simply chooses who's the good and who's the bad guy, and serves info to the world accordingly.
Whether a region separates from the mainland isn't up to justice or a message to the "free world", it's about interest of the bigger players. And maybe it's just me, but to me it seems awfully naive to think that things like "justice" really exist in international politics.
EDIT
@Vokial
Bulgarian Jews were spared but, beside protests by the Orthodox Church and a few others, Bulgarian troops still rounded up Jews from Macedonia and Greece and sent them to Auschwitz. Not to mention how Bulgaria made things easier for the Third Reich's deeds by joining it.
See, you're defending your country which was allied with Hitler. Note that I'm not insulting your country in any way, but I am proving my point that every country killed innocents in one war or another (Nations such as San Marino excluded  ), but inhabitants of that country will always try to explain that to others and their own conscience ("we weren't that bad", "we tried to help the civilians", "we had no choice", "we had to defend ourselves"). Few are those that would say, "yes, that was a mistake, we shouldn't have done that".
Now do you understand why Israelis are defending Israel in this discussion? It's only natural. They're fighting dangerous, ruthless terrorists and separatists (we can all agree that HAMAS are like that) and they see it as something they have to do. They also say how they are trying the best they can to save as many innocents as possible, but there are innocents deemed "impossible to save" and "collateral damage". That's all I'm saying.
No one's hands are clean here.
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OmegaDestroyer
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Fox or Chicken?
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posted January 06, 2009 09:06 PM |
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Who would have thought that the superpowers put their interests in international dealings ahead of international welfare?
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 06, 2009 09:24 PM |
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@Baklava
Come on, man. Don't dismiss my whole argument just because of a bad choice of words, I'm not a politician. The "free world" was just the first thing that sprang to my mind, change it to "all those who want peace and resolve of issues in a diplomatic way". Better now?
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baklava
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posted January 06, 2009 10:29 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 22:30, 06 Jan 2009.
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That's not the point. The point was that "all those who want peace and resolve of issues in a diplomatic way" have their favourites, and while giving in to separatists is considered necessary for peace in some cases, in some other cases a nation's sovereignty goes before human lives.
I was just pointing out the two-facedness of all that... those international peace efforts. Some nations are, it seems, worth more than others... and some lives more than others.
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Geny
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posted January 06, 2009 10:35 PM |
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Well how about this conflict? And how about your opinion? After all that is what we're really talking about here.
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TheDeath
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posted January 06, 2009 10:47 PM |
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How would Israel feel if some of its territory was 'captured' by Hamas? It would start to attack and repeal them back, right? And call it "defense".
I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying to understand why they're so pissed. And I think, everyone thinks they do it for 'defense', maybe even Hamas.
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Geny
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posted January 06, 2009 10:50 PM |
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Quote:
How would Israel feel if some of its territory was 'captured' by Hamas? It would start to attack and repeal them back, right?
Yes. It would gather its army and "ride out" to meet the enemy, or if the enemy was stronger, hide in unpopulated areas and use guerrilla tactics. Not fire at its enemies from buildings filled with civilians, not shield itself with innocent little children, not act like a terrorist group that cares nothing about its own people.
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TheDeath
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posted January 06, 2009 11:00 PM |
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Wait a sec, what makes you so sure that they actually fired at the school because they were attacked from there (with mortars)? That may be just the "official" story... 
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baklava
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posted January 07, 2009 12:07 AM |
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Quote:
Well how about this conflict? And how about your opinion? After all that is what we're really talking about here.
I've already expressed my neutrality.
This conflict is about population, religion and history. And that's the worst kind - as hard as it can get. And both Jews and Muslims from over there are incredibly stubborn people, because they wouldn't have fought each other for 60 years now if they weren't.
Unless international superpowers react by pulling you away one from another, I can sign on a piece of paper that it's not going to end until one side is utterly exterminated and the other one proclaims themselves heroes. Which is the worst thing that can happen.
In my opinion, the forming of Israel as such was a mistake from the start. It burst from the Western world's feeling of guilt toward the Jewish people, and led to half a century of chaos and violence in the region. It is an error which no one can afford to admit. Arabs are pissed and want their homes back, while Jews want their country in their historical home. Perhaps if the ambitions were lower in the beginning and a confederation of Jews, Muslims and Europeans was maintained in the region, all this wouldn't have happened. But we can't know that.
The important thing is that things are the way they are. And now that you're there, there really is no return. Fanatical Muslims usually can't be negotiated with, I'm fully aware of that. And I'm also aware that it seems just wrong to have to give in to terrorists, and that you would need to lose large parts of your territory to appease them. I've looked at the case from both sides, and just don't know the definite solution.
Administration by a third party? Turning Israel into less of a nation and more of a confederation? Granting Palestinians independence? Just nuking the place and moving on? I don't know. Maybe independence for Palestine would be the best option here, but I know that no Jew would accept it. Autonomy, perhaps? But I have a feeling that they already have autonomy, and that's never a permanent solution.
Only long and careful negotiations could bring this to any sort of a halt. That may seem distant because of their stubbornness, but I'm pretty certain that they aren't going to be persuaded by bombs and bullets either. Such things only raise a people's level of resistance.
Anyhow, the situation needs to be solved on an international level, because apparently Israelis and Palestinians aren't able to solve the dispute themselves. And by that, I don't mean "send guns to one side", or "give this side everything, I like them better", or "their lobby is stronger so we're with them". I mean doing something actually responsible, something that has at least the tiniest perspective of ever bringing peace to that godforsaken desert ironically called the Holy Land. Alas, no one really gives a crap, except the USA which did the worst thing it could do for that entire conflict - it picked a side.
That's my opinion on the matter.
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mvassilev
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posted January 07, 2009 12:13 AM |
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Here's my opinion on what needs to happen. First, Israel has to remove Hamas from power. That is absolutely essential. Then Israel has to acknowledge the wrongs that it has done, and apologize for them. Third, it has to leave a small force in Gaza to keep the peace for a while. In the meantime, it should encourage more investment, especially in those areas. When people have job opportunities, they don't blow themselves up.
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TheDeath
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posted January 07, 2009 12:18 AM |
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Quote:
Then Israel has to acknowledge the wrongs that it has done, and apologize for them.
Haha lol that's funny 
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mvassilev
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posted January 07, 2009 12:52 AM |
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lol
It's pretty unrealistic, I admit. But countries do occasionally apologize.
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TheDeath
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posted January 07, 2009 01:05 AM |
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Even if they did, do you honestly think anyone gives a **** about it? Maybe you should tell that to the innocent victims
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mvassilev
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posted January 07, 2009 01:11 AM |
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It could help. Who knows? It wouldn't do anything for the victims, of course, but it could prevent future occurrences.
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TheDeath
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posted January 07, 2009 01:27 AM |
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No it's just naive to think that way. Who wouldn't say that if it means profit?
(not necessarily "money" here)
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mvassilev
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posted January 07, 2009 02:50 AM |
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted January 07, 2009 04:05 AM |
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Quote:
Here's my opinion on what needs to happen. First, Israel has to remove Hamas from power. That is absolutely essential. Then Israel has to acknowledge the wrongs that it has done, and apologize for them. Third, it has to leave a small force in Gaza to keep the peace for a while. In the meantime, it should encourage more investment, especially in those areas. When people have job opportunities, they don't blow themselves up.
Unfortunately, there will still be a hard core of fanatics suiciding bombing and creating conflict.
Israel's never going to apologize, I get the impression that the vast majority of the Israeli population would be angry at the very notion. And to be frank, it's a bit much to expect either side to apologize when the majority of them have done nothing wrong.
I also get the feeling that the Palestinians won't be satisfied with an apology; what does that do for them? 
The whole situation's a mess, really.
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Moonlith
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posted January 07, 2009 01:24 PM |
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I find it kind of funny. Palestinians voted for Hamas to lead them. We're basicly going against the whole princicples of democracy by stating we need to get rid of Hamas "You are free to elect as your leader whoever you wish, but not the ones who's ideaology collides with ours." Sounds like dictatorship from the world to me...
granted it's a difficult situation, but one needs to keep in mind in the eyes of palestinians, Hamas would be like a resistance movement.
Do you know what Nazi germany called french resistance fighters? Terrorists.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted January 07, 2009 01:33 PM |
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Quote:
You are free to elect as your leader whoever you wish, but not the ones who's ideaology collides with ours.
Meh, the idea of the hamas is to remove israel(, so I've been told on several occassions ). And if your ideas are aggression, then you can expect aggression in return...
The entire world is 'an eye for an eye' at least the western idea of karma (the idea that the entire world balances out) (originally it was like fate, but i digress) and chess and a whole lot of other stuff is based on that. The countries who still own nuclear weapons also think this. "They might be able to kill us, but we'll destroy at least 60% of their lands if they do so..."
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Moonlith
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posted January 07, 2009 02:08 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 14:09, 07 Jan 2009.
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True, that fact was the little 'difficulty' I referred to
In any case, I am about 80% convinced this is going to escalate into something much, MUCH bigger. Something is going to happen with Iran, I just know it. Mark my words.
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