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| Thread: Survey on tax structure |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted April 04, 2009 06:31 PM |
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That's a "kill 'em all" kind of point. You need neither rules nor society for that, so it's NO pint at all.
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 07:16 PM |
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It's not "kill-em-all" at all. It's "let people make their own mistakes". You know, the only kind of viewpoint possible with free people.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 04, 2009 08:16 PM |
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You need no school then. No society. No laws. No police, no rules. NO nothing. Complete freedom for all, and let life teach people and natural selection does the rest.
So let them all starve to death - they can't pay up for their food - natural selection. If they were clever they would immigrate illegally into Europe. Illness? If they can't pay, let them die, they should have been clever enough to foresee the situation - it's natural selection. And why care for children? If they are clever enough they'll look afzer themslves - natural selection.
Fine point you have there, really great.
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Corribus
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posted April 04, 2009 08:25 PM |
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I'm not really sure what your point is, JJ. Sorry.
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 08:39 PM |
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JJ:
Yes, except it may be in some people's interest to make sure that others get an education, etc. 
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TheDeath
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posted April 04, 2009 08:42 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:47, 04 Apr 2009.
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Monetary incentive is the only incentive of a labourer. It isn't the only incentive of someone who has a cultural profession, but I don't think everyone's a writer, painter, sculpter or MAD SCIENTIST!
Actually it's not only about cultural profession, it's more like non-physical-labor (whatever it's called in english). But even then, there are few people who love their job as hard as it may seem (it does seem strange to me at least), I mean to like physical labor. There are even "business" dudes who sometimes give away stuff for free, depending on situation (like if they have "sufficient" money, not millions, but just sufficient).
The internet strengthens this viewpoint. I wonder whether it actually signified the start of a new era or something, economically speaking. There are lots of free stuff, and cracks (which are also "free", maybe illegal to the producer, but the crack itself is free).
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Yes, except it may be in some people's interest to make sure that others get an education, etc.
"some people"?
it's in my best interest if the system is socialistic too. Why doesn't it get socialistic then?
And those who still say we're subject to natural selection, including themselves, should probably go to a period when there was no medicine available. Depending on the part of the world you want to be, this may take you more than 2000 years in the past.
Also they should probably replace their brains with something that thinks more... you know, step-2 evolution style instead of step-3. (don't worry about step-2 and such, those are the stuff I wrote about in some other thread which I can't remember, the different steps of evolution etc... natural selection only applies to 2 of course, and that's the classical term of evolution)
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DagothGares
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posted April 04, 2009 08:51 PM |
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Well, the managers and CEO's of their companies can also be proud (of their companies or the things they manage), but all mass labourers (even people with desk jobs) can't be proud of their individual labour, since it's usually exactly the same as one of their co-workers. The people have no clear vision of the product of their labour as well.
Noone will be proud saying: "I filled in that report!"
or: "I totally made those calculations and noted down what my boss dictated/ cited!"
Man is no longer a craftsmen, but a labourer. It's a mass-producing society, where people lose their own identity. (hey, the conditions where romanticism has started )
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TheDeath
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posted April 04, 2009 08:54 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:54, 04 Apr 2009.
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I disagree. It was a mass-producing society in the 19th and 20th centuries. Now it's getting more and more automated, and more important to be a "craftsman" than just do the boring job of a robot.
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Corribus
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posted April 04, 2009 09:00 PM |
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Sorry, Deathboy, but most people have the boring job of a robot. Most people sitting in cubicles aren't craftsmen.
Nobody would work at McDonalds for free.
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 09:01 PM |
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TheDeath... you can't make everything the way you make open-source software. It wouldn't work at all.
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it's in my best interest if the system is socialistic too. Why doesn't it get socialistic then?
Oh? How much have you done to make it socialist? Donated any of your time or money? No? Well, then...
And by natural selection, I meant "survival of the fittest" for whatever the situation is - natural or unnatural.
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TheDeath
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posted April 04, 2009 09:06 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 21:12, 04 Apr 2009.
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Sorry, Deathboy, but most people have the boring job of a robot.
Look at the differences between these days and the previous century. Think of future terms. This difference will increase. Already those that make the most money (not MCDonalds  ) are usually automated these days. And since those have the most impact we could start already.
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Oh? How much have you done to make it socialist? Donated any of your time or money? No? Well, then...
Huh?
Are you actually talking about buying the presidency or bribing or something like that? 
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TheDeath... you can't make everything the way you make open-source software. It wouldn't work at all.
Yeah, that's what big people think when they get frustrated their products get cracked no matter how much security. And what then? We see customers who actually bought the damn thing get even more frustrated at the security thing than the crackers and those who use the cracks who get rid of it, going through a lengthy procedure to find out it doesn't work, calling for technical support... in games cases, even crashing... or waiting for the CD to scan 30 minutes before you can play. Or annoying stuff for those that buy it (not who crack it).
You're saying that this wouldn't happen if people didn't crack right? But people DO crack, it's what they damn want! Advanced security that's annoying to normal users it's what is "off the road".
Software is, of course, one example of automation, since after all, the "factory" is your own computer. Just think about it.
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DagothGares
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posted April 04, 2009 09:13 PM |
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if CD's and such are cracked, then the industry depending on it will shut down eventually...
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 09:24 PM |
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Are you actually talking about buying the presidency or bribing or something like that?
No, I mean donating your money to a socialist/green political party or organization, or starting your own and hiring employees, etc. Or volunteering to work for one, or running for public office...
And it's one thing to crack stuff, and entirely another to actually make it. Cracking is obviously much easier.
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TheDeath
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posted April 04, 2009 09:41 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 21:41, 04 Apr 2009.
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if CD's and such are cracked, then the industry depending on it will shut down eventually...
Oh noes this age-old debate comes to HC too now? 
I had enough of this on other forums more specific on this kind of thing, but I'll summarize:
1) People who use cracks usually wouldn't buy it anyway.
2) File sharing? (in the case of music) Well tough luck, artists used to have problems getting people to hear their music. Now they can get thousands to hear it within minutes, and they complain about sharing.
Ask him. Im sure you enjoy listening to free music. (this is not software btw but music)
3) Why do people who crack SHARE THIS STUFF with others? Or why do people share music? It is an effort after all. It's because it's what they want, or that they are good? Or because EVERYONE ENJOYS music to be shared, don't lie, we all like don't we? Capitalism is off track, it's like changing human nature in this case!
4) Some people, believe me or not, do "buy" the damn thing even if they had the crack for years, just to give something to the developers (or make a donation) cause we still don't live yet in a socialist world, sadly... (so yes, they need some money to survive in this old-fashioned jungle)
5) Why should an album give you endless money because you can easily copy it countless times without much effort/money (i.e you don't need to work more and more), but you RESTRICT others to do the same? (i.e copy...). Capitalism is like completely off track.
Capitalism... used to work in history, we'll say in 100 years!
@mvass: answered above, see point 3
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 09:45 PM |
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3) Why do people who crack SHARE THIS STUFF with others? Or why do people share music? It is an effort after all. It's because it's what they want, or that they are good? Or because EVERYONE ENJOYS music to be shared, don't lie, we all like don't we? Capitalism is off track, it's like changing human nature in this case!
Because they gain emotional enjoyment from doing so. But the economy can't run on internal emotional enjoyment alone. Plus, the people who make the music don't enjoy when their stuff is shared.
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5) Why should an album give you endless money because you can easily copy it countless times without much effort/money (i.e you don't need to work more and more), but you RESTRICT others to do the same? (i.e copy...). Capitalism is like completely off track.
Because you took the effort to make the stuff on the album?
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TheDeath
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posted April 04, 2009 09:53 PM |
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Because they gain emotional enjoyment from doing so. But the economy can't run on internal emotional enjoyment alone. Plus, the people who make the music don't enjoy when their stuff is shared.
Who cares what is the motivation? Call it whatever you want, but it's not money. Not capitalism.
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Because you took the effort to make the stuff on the album?
No you don't get it. This is not THEFT, because that stuff you made is still YOURS, you still have your CD with which you started.
This could be closer to an analogy like this: you have a factory (computer) which makes a developed product (the music CD). Then you give this product to others with factories. It's in human nature to use them, it is more efficient overall, etc... putting "licenses" or "you are not allowed to copy/use it!" is like, you know, against human nature. And you criticized me cause of it.
In other words, when you buy the music, you don't OWN the CD, since you can't do whatever you want with it -- it's not theft, since the artist still HAS HIS piece. You can even give it back to the store if you want after. It's using your "factory". I suspect we'll have nano-factories in some years. Have fun trying to stop people from copying everything then!
Oh noes, probably we'll not allow them to get their hands on them, even if they're affordable! Talking about government control! (this would be like we wouldn't allow people to get their hands on computers, CD burners, or internet!)
Scientists are also on the verge of losing their jobs in a few decades... Poor Corribus, especially if we'll still have capitalism by then 
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del_diablo
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posted April 04, 2009 11:00 PM |
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if CD's and such are cracked, then the industry depending on it will shut down eventually...
Wrong. For a simple reason: The interernet is NOT propriatary.
No one owns it, anybody can get up a server or get a site.
Then we got tecnology these days like torrents, which makes it fare worse to stop. Before you had to take down an entire FTP server(warez) and that would stop those downloads and the "law" would support this.
However, why is thepiratebay.org still running then? Simply because they are breaking no laws, actually they only provide a torrent tracker and free abuse.
The internet itself is quite left-wing. FLOSS is also quite left-wing.
The only propriatary things that really work are games, and they can be opensource too. You sell the actuall game, under a copyleft license that does not allow it to be ripped around(however using a bit of code if legal). You directly opensource everything else under GPL or compitable license, tada! If the models is a part of a giantic opensource model libary then you only have to worry about the scripts and storyline along with the game mecanics, the part of the game people really want.
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 11:27 PM |
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TheDeath:
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Who cares what is the motivation? Call it whatever you want, but it's not money. Not capitalism.
The thing is, in most cases, you can't always rely on this kind of motivation.
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It's in human nature to use them, it is more efficient overall
Nope. Think of it this way. An artist has spent years of effort creating an album. Then he sells it to some company, hoping to make money - but then the company doesn't buy it, saying, "Sorry, we'd love to, but as soon as we publish it, people will distribute it all over the Internet, and we won't be able to make any money." So the artist doesn't get anything. And then he wouldn't do it at all except as a hobby - which would result in much less stuff.
As for that story you posted, it might be useful to read it: "Lipson does not think robots will make scientists obsolete any day soon, but believes they could take over much of the routine work in research laboratories."
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TheDeath
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posted April 05, 2009 05:23 PM |
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The thing is, in most cases, you can't always rely on this kind of motivation.
I could say the same for money motivation.
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Nope. Think of it this way. An artist has spent years of effort creating an album. Then he sells it to some company, hoping to make money - but then the company doesn't buy it, saying, "Sorry, we'd love to, but as soon as we publish it, people will distribute it all over the Internet, and we won't be able to make any money." So the artist doesn't get anything. And then he wouldn't do it at all except as a hobby - which would result in much less stuff.
What has that got to do with human nature?
And by the way, we have the internet. That kinds of "artists" who seem to only care about money (or don't want to use the net) are not the future, they are the past. Just think about it. Your viewpoint was more than 90% (except for socialists) in the 19th and 20th centuries, now we've got all this internet "era" and easy flow of information, and ability to truly EXPRESS OUR NATURE (i.e almost everyone has his own software factory so to speak). And this is going to be more in depth as time goes on, because it is the future. We are not there yet, but we don't have to wait until the final, the 'change' must be done gradually, we could start now. Abrupt changes suck.
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As for that story you posted, it might be useful to read it: "Lipson does not think robots will make scientists obsolete any day soon, but believes they could take over much of the routine work in research laboratories."
Patience mvass. You remind me of people in the 60s who said laptop-sized supercomputers (by those standards) will never exist "any day soon". I said in a few decades, mvass. 20-30 years or so.
In this respect, do you really want to cling onto this until it finally has its last breath, and then have a hard time adapting all-of-a-sudden?
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mvassilev
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posted April 05, 2009 05:29 PM |
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I could say the same for money motivation.
Yes, but money works better most of the time. (Usually, though, it's some combination of the two.)
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now we've got all this internet "era" and easy flow of information, and ability to truly EXPRESS OUR NATURE (i.e almost everyone has his own software factory so to speak).
Sure, people can express themselves for a relatively low cost - but they can't make a living this way. It's easier than ever to popularize music, but it's harder than ever to make a living as an artist. You can't feed yourself just by doing stuff for free. Most of these people have other jobs.
And I don't think robots will ever think creatively like humans can.
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