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| Thread: Survey on tax structure |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
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posted April 05, 2009 05:42 PM |
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Yes, but money works better most of the time. (Usually, though, it's some combination of the two.)
I disagree simply because it is "money vs the others", where the 'others' are probably a dozen or more.
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Sure, people can express themselves for a relatively low cost - but they can't make a living this way. It's easier than ever to popularize music, but it's harder than ever to make a living as an artist. You can't feed yourself just by doing stuff for free. Most of these people have other jobs.
Well I never said otherwise and I somewhat agree here, because of the system we live in -- thankfully it is getting easier to not be a slave to your "job", but that is only because of the system. People with more incomes for various reasons, can usually make it better, because of the craptastic system we live in, and others usually put the "please make a donation" very obvious (I can perfectly understand them though, you know...).
You know what we should really do to make this faster? Filter out (erm...  ) the guys who only want money and/or greed and don't care one bit about the 'end result' as long as it's profitable to them. Without them in the gene pool we might turn into a cooperative society rather than one struggling with itself. (look at your cells and why 'cancer' is struggling against the others and see what happens to you as a whole )
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And I don't think robots will ever think creatively like humans can.
There's not much creativity in research, which is "the job with steady money". Theorists though will likely not be replaced but they probably don't have it as a job. Get what I'm saying?
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mvassilev
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posted April 05, 2009 07:19 PM |
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I disagree simply because it is "money vs the others", where the 'others' are probably a dozen or more.
It's "money vs. emotional benefits".
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People with more incomes for various reasons, can usually make it better, because of the craptastic system we live in, and others usually put the "please make a donation" very obvious
There are a lot more different jobs available now (I don't mean right now, due to the recession, but I mean in the current era of history in general). But if anyone hopes to make enough money from donations, they're going to fail. Just look at Stephen King.
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Without them in the gene pool we might turn into a cooperative society rather than one struggling with itself.
I'm sorry, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How about we filter out the collectivists instead?
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There's not much creativity in research, which is "the job with steady money". Theorists though will likely not be replaced but they probably don't have it as a job. Get what I'm saying?
What do you mean by "don't have it as a job"?
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TheDeath
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posted April 05, 2009 08:39 PM |
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It's "money vs. emotional benefits".
Which are many.
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There are a lot more different jobs available now (I don't mean right now, due to the recession, but I mean in the current era of history in general). But if anyone hopes to make enough money from donations, they're going to fail. Just look at Stephen King.
I didn't say you have to make money out of donations for a living. I said for the respective development of whatever it is -- for example, server costs (although I do know one guy who has this "private" site where I have an account in which... let's just say he uploads stuff for others, AND he pays for server costs (the uploads are put usually on free servers though) without needing much donation at all, it all depends on everyone's situation -- since in capitalism, there are poor and medium and rich citizens...).
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I'm sorry, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How about we filter out the collectivists instead?
Because such a thing/thinking is collective? I mean you can't really claim you're individualistic if you don't allow others to, let's say, make children (they can still adopt ).
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What do you mean by "don't have it as a job"?
Formulating theories about the Universe may grant you a Nobel Prize but it isn't a job. People don't employ others to get general relativity. They employ them to do basic research for development.
Let me put it like this: pure scientists are those theorists which are never "hired" (except maybe the government which you despise). Only those with engineering are. Not sure if it's the correct wording but you get the idea. And that doesn't require much creativity -- I mean research. Yes the robot might then fill a report for the boss/manager which is still a human, but that's it.
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mvassilev
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posted April 05, 2009 08:48 PM |
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I said for the respective development of whatever it is -- for example, server costs
But if they want to do it really well, they should do it for a living. 
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I mean you can't really claim you're individualistic if you don't allow others to, let's say, make children
Call it "Voluntary Collectivist Extinction Project".
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Only those with engineering are. Not sure if it's the correct wording but you get the idea. And that doesn't require much creativity -- I mean research. Yes the robot might then fill a report for the boss/manager which is still a human, but that's it.
The government is still going to hire them. And private companies don't hire many scientists anyway - they are more about engineers.
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TheDeath
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posted April 05, 2009 09:55 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 21:56, 05 Apr 2009.
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But if they want to do it really well, they should do it for a living.
Yeah but not today. Maybe in the future, when capitalism will meet the final frontier and dead end, I have no doubt it will be possible. I'm more worried about those which will see this change as abrupt and not prepare for it though.
EDIT: This depends though, on the individual/organization. Look at Mozilla for full time
Either that, or massive protests will come about and rendering our society null of robots, internet, nanofactories, etc... to make capitalism work at its finest again!
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Call it "Voluntary Collectivist Extinction Project".
lol this sounds familiar
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The government is still going to hire them.
I thought you despised government actions and want to make everything private and for profit?Quote:
And private companies don't hire many scientists anyway - they are more about engineers.
Exactly my point. What do you think those robots were made for?
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mvassilev
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posted April 05, 2009 10:33 PM |
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Maybe in the future, when capitalism will meet the final frontier and dead end
Capitalism will only end when scarcity ends. And that will never happen.
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I thought you despised government actions and want to make everything private and for profit?
I'm not an anarchist. Government has a legitimate role to play in society. Unfortunately, either due to poorly educated citizens or the power of special interest groups, it steps outside of that boundary.
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What do you think those robots were made for?
Those robots aren't going to replace engineers, if that's what you're suggesting.
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TheDeath
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posted April 05, 2009 11:40 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:40, 05 Apr 2009.
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Capitalism will only end when scarcity ends. And that will never happen.
Right, well, I think it'll end when people will work like slaves to get food cause, you know, the big-ass dude with the robot machinery can send them a nice kick instantly, so naturally wages would be like... nanoscale
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Those robots aren't going to replace engineers, if that's what you're suggesting.
Man why do you make it so difficult? Of course they're not going to replace engineers (maybe the next robot might  ), but researchers.
And you see, in capitalism, people are AFRAID of being replaced by robots. Doesn't that seem like... you know, FLAWED thinking? Or something that should be scrapped to the past?
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mvassilev
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posted April 05, 2009 11:42 PM |
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Right, well, I think it'll end when people will work like slaves to get food cause, you know, the big-ass dude with the robot machinery can send them a nice kick instantly, so naturally wages would be like... nanoscale
By the time we have robots doing that on a massive scale, we'll have so many new jobs that it won't matter. We don't have telephone operators any more. Is anyone complaining about that?
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And you see, in capitalism, people are AFRAID of being replaced by robots. Doesn't that seem like... you know, FLAWED thinking? Or something that should be scrapped to the past?
It's flawed thinking, but it doesn't have anything to do with capitalism.
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TheDeath
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posted April 05, 2009 11:49 PM |
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Is anyone complaining about that?
Yeah, telephone operators!
And mvass, I assume you never heard of the Singularity have you?
It's not like humans have endless potential.
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It's flawed thinking, but it doesn't have anything to do with capitalism.
Yes it does because they would have no wage, or their wages would lower considerably under capitalism ONLY.
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mvassilev
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posted April 05, 2009 11:57 PM |
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Yeah, telephone operators!
How many unemployed telephone operators do you see on the streets today?
And I don't think the singularity will ever happen.
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Yes it does because they would have no wage, or their wages would lower considerably under capitalism ONLY.
Except the decreased costs of production would result in lower product prices, which means consumers would have an increased surplus, and so they'd have more money to spend elsewhere, which would create jobs - which would eventually reach the displaced people.
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TheDeath
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posted April 06, 2009 12:02 AM |
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How many unemployed telephone operators do you see on the streets today?
Not today, as always you miss the point. Ask those back then which lost their jobs. Who knows, maybe they died or something, why would I see them today if they're dead?
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And I don't think the singularity will ever happen.
Do you? Or rather pray and not want it?
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Except the decreased costs of production would result in lower product prices, which means consumers would have an increased surplus, and so they'd have more money to spend elsewhere, which would create jobs - which would eventually reach the displaced people.
But they will have no income... at all. How can they buy anything?
Obviously they're gonna starve or start begging, or get on some other job (which probably will get replaced soon too). The point is, they will probably die. Yeah sure, the rest of society doesn't care, I mean who cares?
But it will happen like a chain reaction. First to them, then to others. Only the dudes with the robots will remain in a non-slavery position. Whadda make of that?
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Lexxan
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posted April 06, 2009 12:02 AM |
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What if taxes were abolished altogether? What would happen then?
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DagothGares
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posted April 06, 2009 12:03 AM |
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social security and public services would cease to exist, along with police ad military forces, unless under private companies, which would end in total anarchy: the end of people like me.
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Lexxan
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posted April 06, 2009 12:05 AM |
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Or it would make sure that everyone gain more money, and spends more of it, increasing the country's economy and creating more jobs, which would end up in more money and etc...
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Mamgaeater
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posted April 06, 2009 12:07 AM |
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but where is the country? without taxes nobody is paying the politicians. And i doubt people would go into such a field without a salary.
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mvassilev
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posted April 06, 2009 12:09 AM |
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TheDeath:
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Ask those back then which lost their jobs.
Yeah, it results in some displacement in the short run, but it benefits everybody else in the short run, and then everybody in the long run.
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Do you?
Yes. No matter how much code one writes, it's never going to do anything it's not programmed to do.
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But they will have no income... at all. How can they buy anything?
They have savings. Plus they can find different jobs. Plus there's unemployment insurance. So, no, they don't die. History proves you wrong.
Lexxan:
I'm not an anarcho-capitalist, but I have much more sympathy for it than I have for TheDeath's perspective. I've heard some very good arguments for anarcho-capitalism. If you wish to discuss it, I would gladly do so. It would be a nice change.
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DagothGares
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posted April 06, 2009 12:09 AM |
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Or it would make sure that everyone gain more money, and spends more of it, increasing the country's economy and creating more jobs, which would end up in more money and etc...
Have you heard what I stated? Total flippin' anarchy! There are idiots, murderers and socially stressed out, maladjusted deskjob workers out there! The system would simply collapse without anyone to enforce law or educate them into better ways of thinking.
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mvassilev
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posted April 06, 2009 12:11 AM |
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Lexxan
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posted April 06, 2009 12:14 AM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 00:16, 06 Apr 2009.
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but where is the country? without taxes nobody is paying the politicians.
Politicians? Those incompetent, arrogant, power-consuing douchebags who cling to power as if their life depended on it (charicaturization of the Belgian Politicians). If you lived in the same country as I do and has much Political insight, you would be as cynical as I would be. (but that's another matter).
Besides Politicians weren't payed in those early days. They did it, because the could afford it, liked it and (NOT or) considered it their National duty. There will always be politician, even without the wages (and maybe even better so, which takes away another factor for post-clinging)
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Lexxan:
I'm not an anarcho-capitalist, but I have much more sympathy for it than I have for TheDeath's perspective. I've heard some very good arguments for anarcho-capitalism. If you wish to discuss it, I would gladly do so. It would be a nice change
I'm not an economist and have no real interest for it whatsoever. I just wanted to know whether it would be possible
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Anarchy =/= Chaos
According to my definition of Chaos, it sort of is, meaning that Chaos is Positive Anarchy.
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mvassilev
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posted April 06, 2009 12:15 AM |
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but where is the country? without taxes nobody is paying the politicians. And i doubt people would go into such a field without a salary.
Yeah... that's the least of my concerns.
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