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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: About Politics: Greens
Thread: About Politics: Greens This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 10, 2009 09:21 PM

TheDeath:
Quote:
Carbon tax is ridiculous, it's like saying "it's better to make a mess then clean up rather than not make any mess at all" lol.
No, it's like saying "I'd rather make a mess and pay for the consequences than not make it in the first place."
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 10, 2009 09:29 PM
Edited by del_diablo at 21:31, 10 Apr 2009.

Quote:
That's a bad idea. Taxing gas makes it more expensive, so consumers will gravitate towards more fuel-efficient cars anyway.


But we are not taxing the public, we are taxing the people and making these fuel eating machines. Read my post dammit!

Comsumers would not get those fuel efficient cars unless somebody makes, the people who are creating the ineffective cars would not be allowed to make them and thus forcing on a quicker pace in the race for global warming. Its alot cheaper for the producers to make fuel eating cars, so we need regulations to stop nonsens from happening.

Quote:
TheDeath:
Quote:
Carbon tax is ridiculous, it's like saying "it's better to make a mess then clean up rather than not make any mess at all" lol.
No, it's like saying "I'd rather make a mess and pay for the consequences than not make it in the first place."


Carbon tax IS completely ridiculess. What do you think of cashing people out of jail for criminal actions by the way? Its really the same case.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 10, 2009 09:31 PM

Quote:
I'm not doing anything to affect the enviroment in a bad manner. Since when are Liberals (or Libertarians for that matter) anti-enviroment (please post your answer in the Liberal club thread, we don't want too much off-topicness here)
Why do you have a problem with forbidding something which you don't do, then?
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 10, 2009 10:01 PM

I don't like green ideology.

I enjoy nature, yes, but I think there is too much focus on carbon dioxide and too little on saving the endangered species.

One volcano eruption is worse than all our combined industry. Why can't we focus on something more important, the vanishing variety of our planet?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 10, 2009 10:28 PM

del_diablo:
Quote:
But we are not taxing the public, we are taxing the people
Wait, what?

Quote:
Comsumers would not get those fuel efficient cars unless somebody makes, the people who are creating the ineffective cars would not be allowed to make them
Making it more expensive to drive fuel-inefficient cars would have much of the same effect.

Quote:
What do you think of cashing people out of jail for criminal actions by the way? Its really the same case.
*sigh*
What you eco-socialists don't understand is the concept of trade-offs. If we were to completely ban pollution, the cost would not be worth it.

Doomforge:
Quote:
I enjoy nature, yes, but I think there is too much focus on carbon dioxide and too little on saving the endangered species.
Funny - I think the exact opposite. Global warming is a big deal. But who cares about some obscure species of beetle?
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 10, 2009 10:49 PM
Edited by Lexxan at 22:50, 10 Apr 2009.

The reason that I wouldn't ever vote Green (other than the fact that I'm Central-right), is because they have a very Extreme Points of View. They really wish to completely re-shape society, a process that takes years and lots of money (they ARE in Favour of raising Taxes, which are already HIGH in Belgium).

However, I do agree that we should think more enviromentally and use the so-called "Green" (from Windturbines, Dams, etc) Energies istead of the present ones (through Nuclear power or Fossile Fuels). That's where my agreement ends though.

I also do not like their tone; for a party that barely get's 5% of all (Flemish!) votes, they are extremely arrogant. In the manifesto I posted, they actually compare their tiny Political movement to the BIG BANG (= start of all life!). They are exteme atheist (and many of them are actually Stalinists as well), yet they constantly compare themselves to Divine beings or Universal things. It's very arrogant. Not to mention that their programme is very Extreme (unlike their Walloon counterpart, EcoLo, which is quite temperate), which doesn't help their cause either.


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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 10, 2009 11:31 PM
Edited by del_diablo at 23:33, 10 Apr 2009.

Quote:
Wait, what?


I did a damn type <.<

But we are not taxing the public, we are taxing the people and that making these fuel eating machines. Read my post dammit!

Corrected

Quote:
Making it more expensive to drive fuel-inefficient cars would have much of the same effect.


We have tried that, we increased on the cost of gasoline(25% increase).
Guess what? It did not work at all. About the same amount of fuel was purchased, people did not use more public transportation, etc....
That is why i want someting more extreme.

Quote:
What you eco-socialists don't understand is the concept of trade-offs. If we were to completely ban pollution, the cost would not be worth it.


I reffere to me statement a little upp in this post. For the note, a complete ban would create to much of a mess since we don't have most of the tecnology yet. And we could never completely ban it either since its only a bit natural(the amount we spew out it unatural).
What i don't understand with you right-wingers is how you think carbon taxes actually would have any impact.

Quote:
Funny - I think the exact opposite. Global warming is a big deal. But who cares about some obscure species of beetle?


Quite a bunch, you would be surprised. But generally its not aimed at that, but to stop the overkill done in places(direct extermination via forest chopping is a example).

Edit: Lexxan, the group you describe sounds like a complete disaster of a political party <.<
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 10, 2009 11:57 PM

Lexxan:
Quote:
we should think more enviromentally and use the so-called "Green" (from Windturbines, Dams, etc) Energies istead of the present ones (through Nuclear power or Fossile Fuels).
I'll agree with you about dams and fossil fuels. But wind turbines are inefficient (plus threaten some endangered species), and nuclear power is a good idea.

del_diablo:
But why tax the people making the machines? They're not the ones producing the fossil fuel pollution - the drivers are.

Quote:
We have tried that, we increased on the cost of gasoline(25% increase).
Guess what? It did not work at all.
When it's already as high as it is in Norway, of course not. But it'd work in the US.

Quote:
What i don't understand with you right-wingers is how you think carbon taxes actually would have any impact.
Um... you don't know many right-wingers, do you? Most right-wingers completely oppose a carbon tax. It's the left-wingers that support it.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 11, 2009 12:08 AM

Quote:
Lexxan:
Quote:
we should think more enviromentally and use the so-called "Green" (from Windturbines, Dams, etc) Energies istead of the present ones (through Nuclear power or Fossile Fuels).
I'll agree with you about dams and fossil fuels. But wind turbines are inefficient (plus threaten some endangered species), and nuclear power is a good idea.

Wind Turbines are pretty effective here though. (lots of wind in the near North Sea) Im' quite on the fence about Nuclear Power.


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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 11, 2009 12:16 AM

Quote:
But why tax the people making the machines? They're not the ones producing the fossil fuel pollution - the drivers are.


Ever heard the expression: "Your not helping".
[sarcasme]But your right, why tax the people who can earn money on making fuel burning machines that pollutes like heck? I mean its best to leave them alone. I just don't se what harm they do.[/sarcasme]


Quote:
When it's already as high as it is in Norway, of course not. But it'd work in the US.


You better have sources to back that one up. Because i want to se someting to back up that claim.

Quote:
Um... you don't know many right-wingers, do you? Most right-wingers completely oppose a carbon tax. It's the left-wingers that support it.
Quote:


Left and left. A centrist is not a leftwing, but using the "holy" middleground.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 11, 2009 12:28 AM
Edited by mvassilev at 00:28, 11 Apr 2009.

Quote:
But your right, why tax the people who can earn money on making fuel burning machines that pollutes like heck? I mean its best to leave them alone. I just don't se what harm they do.
They're not the ones polluting! It's just like we punish murderers, not gun manufacturers.

Quote:
You better have sources to back that one up. Because i want to se someting to back up that claim.
Here.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 11, 2009 12:42 AM
Edited by del_diablo at 01:18, 11 Apr 2009.

Quote:
They're not the ones polluting! It's just like we punish murderers, not gun manufacturers.


Wrong comparision.
Cars purpose is to get from A to B quickly, the thing is that they are polluting alot more than they can do. Heck we could enforce that all cars must be electric.
It almost looks like one of Deaths worse comparisions.

Now to wait for openoffice to get downloaded so i can skim trough the .xlm z.z

Edit: Done! phew, long chart. For me it looks like the numbers are made out of thin are since the public may not react the exact way predicted. They do however have some solid ground under them, but their not hard enogh.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 11, 2009 01:18 AM

Quote:
Cars purpose is to get from A to B quickly, the thing is that they are polluting alot more than they can do. Heck we could enforce that all cars must be electric.
I agree that electric cars will probably be the ultimate result, but pollution doesn't have an infinite cost. Sometimes the cost of buying or designing a less polluting car is greater than the cost of pollution.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 11, 2009 01:21 AM

Quote:
I agree that electric cars will probably be the ultimate result, but pollution doesn't have an infinite cost. Sometimes the cost of buying or designing a less polluting car is greater than the cost of pollution.


But you know, its alot easyer to kill people dening you free tobakko in stores.
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Mamgaeater
Mamgaeater


Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
posted April 11, 2009 01:25 AM

What about solar power? it has great potential but right now its inefficient...
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 11, 2009 01:28 AM

Quote:
What about solar power? it has great potential but right now its inefficient...


Its ineffective at the moment, but again we have places like Sahara that are waist big with really nothing in at and lots of sun. So its quite useable at the moment with places like that(however you build quite a few).
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted April 11, 2009 01:32 AM

How about using oceanic territory to place solar plates around the equator? Or is that just crazytalk? I mean, they can install oil platforms, so...
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 11, 2009 01:43 AM

Meh, I don't have much hope in solar power. I think the immediate future is in nuclear fission, and the more distant - in nuclear fusion.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted April 11, 2009 01:46 AM

Or like - flattening all of australia and cover it with one big solar plate! We'd have the power to serve the world and then some!

Now, all we need is a nod from the queen of the british empire and BAM! we're in! What say you?
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Mamgaeater
Mamgaeater


Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
posted April 11, 2009 01:47 AM
Edited by Mamgaeater at 01:48, 11 Apr 2009.

But solar panels are selective and expensive. i can easily see solar power becoming one of the cheapest energy sources but solar panels are inefficient and won't get very far.


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