|
| Thread: Immortality and the definition of life |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
posted September 14, 2009 05:24 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You're welcome to debate this part, but you asked for the point, and as you're the challenger I merely wrote the point was my claim that you challenged.
Again you must have misunderstood what I meant.
You told me that my point is emotionally biased.
I tried to explain that it is the opposite: I asked you what is the point you're making -- because, if I understood your point (before asking) and concluded that it's yours who is emotionally biased. For example: fear of death, feeling that your life is worth living, etc... 
Quote:
That'd be awesome.
Well I'm no biologist so someone else should take the discussion.
Quote:
We can devide it up in emotions are lusts and our decisions are wants.
What is fear if not an emotion? 
Quote:
Again I should emphazise that when I write we're alive, I mean we're consciouss, or to say, we've the ability to do what we want, if you read it that way I believe you'll see there's no emotional bias in what I wrote.
I'm not saying staying alive is an emotion, it is an instinct. However, why staying alive is a good thing, is an emotion -- or rather, why not staying alive is BAD (i.e fear of death). THAT is the emotion, not being alive. 
Quote:
That's faulty logic, simply because logic cannot work without a premise, there's no absolute logic that is the premise for all things, otherwise we could derive the entire universe through mathmatics that'd forever hold true, no need for uncertainity, etc.
Who said probabilities and statistics based on chances can't be explained mathematically? In fact, it's pretty easy. (i.e "uncertainty")
Quote:
So you're probably thinking now, how do you then get the premise, the definition? You choose it, in the real world by a measure and for your goals in life, you choose.
Thereby you cannot create anything rational, without something irrational (something that has no logic reason to be) to start with. The irrational part is what other may say is what we thing of as the "meaning of life" or maybe our "purpose in life", or what they want. It's something you derive for yourself, and it may always be irrational, but to avoid confusion here, it does not have to be derived through emotions.
Actually you're pretty much right there, because rational can't exist without irrational, since it wouldn't be rational -- it would have nothing to make it rational, without irrational. However, I didn't say that emotions are irrational, not all of them are. The ones that are, though, are in this topic. Fear, for example.
Quote:
I've watched the matrix.
What's your point about the matrix?
It answers your question. This:
Finally let's note this about emotions, if we're in such a high control of ourself that we actually can decide exactly how long we exist, what makes us not able to likewise decide actually how we want to feel at any given time? After all emotions are merely chemicals getting transported in your brain.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 05:27 PM |
|
|
Boredom? You must be kidding. Aren't you CURIOUS about how things will be in 50, in 100, in 200, in 500, in thousand years?
What marvels the universe holds, whether we will manage space travel and reach other stars and planets? Whether there are other species and whether we can communicate?
And there's so much to read, to listen to, to LEARN, for frag's sake.
Bordeom. Christ.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 05:29 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Boredom? You must be kidding. Aren't you CURIOUS about how things will be in 50, in 100, in 200, in 500, in thousand years?
Are you surprised if the answer is not what you expect? (not that I'd be necessarily)
What is this, the curiosity religion?
Quote:
And there's so much to read, to listen to, to LEARN, for frag's sake.
Limited RAM. You might run out of memory.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 05:31 PM |
|
|
JJ: Hard to say. There are people genuinely bored of their lives at any age. I guess it's more of a hormonal/mental issue rather than simple "there is nothing more to do so I'm bored". And who knows how would brain work after 100, 200 or 500 years. Perhaps we would gradually become numb.
And brain stores memories physically. Yes, it must run out of space at some point.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 05:48 PM |
|
|
I think that the boredom advocats are pretty superficially repeating the sign of the times and equal boredom with an absence of new (or fresh) sensually thrilling experiences.
Reducing life to that is, well, ignorant - I don't know any btter word for it.
For memory, we obviously forget a lot, when it's not needed for some time, which is pretty cool. Otherwise you'd have to actively clean up memory regularly to make room for new stuff.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 05:52 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 17:53, 14 Sep 2009.
|
The PROBLEM here is obvious: the brain is meant to forget, because we are meant to die. If you get around this I have no problem with immortality -- as I have no problem with AIs/cyborgs, which are by definition immortal (in the "aging" sense anyway). I'm just more practical
(for instance, if I could get a cyborg "brain" which never forgets, immortality all the way -- and without kids of course, but I debated that before).
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 06:10 PM |
|
|
We would have to get our brains tweaked heavily, but our bodies too. A small example would be the natural lubricant in our knees... it simply runs out slowly as we age. Our bodies would have to resemble ordinary humans no more to be immortal.
JJ: memory is something pretty complex. Do we really "forget" stuff, however? Or is it just moved to the "long term" memory and we can't access it immediately? You would probably recall things from your childhood you're not aware of anymore if you, idk, saw toys from your youth.
The thing is, IMMORTAL beings would run out of capacity of THAT memory too. We would utterly and completely forget those things, I guess.. With no means to remember. Pretty horrible if you ask me.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 06:27 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You would probably recall things from your childhood you're not aware of anymore if you, idk, saw toys from your youth.
Or hypnosis.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 08:29 PM |
|
|
Cool, I thought people had lost interest in the thread, nice to see it still goes strong, though it'd be rather nice if we could come to a common ground, because for the last 4-5 pages it has been the same arguments and counterarguments over and over again.
If you read this, don't worry I'm not going to write it all again.
@Mytical
I see you've 3 points, those are:
#1Fear of future emotions (boredom which leads to regret)
I'm sorry if you don't think fear is the right word, again I can't see any other word that describes it better.
#2Consequences of overpopulation.
And finally
#3 Limited ressources means problems in the future.
Both #1 and #2 are problems that have been raised earlier by TheDeath and Doomforge, I do understand if you do not like to read 70+ threads to find out my (and others) counterargument against these, however at least I can say there's a lot of repitition in it, so it's basicly not as long a read as it seems as soon as you get the point, because after that it'll be all repitition, so I encourage you to read the previous parts. Beside I think it'd be a lack of respect to those who've read it all, if I repeat myself again here.
About #3 then I don't recall it's been presented before, however no matter if it's the individuals of society that exists forever or society in general, the same lack of ressources problems happens.
Though many have a false view of the whole idea of lack of ressources, because ressources are basicly energy and energy is conserved, so why are there lack of ressources? Because the usefulness of energy or to say the opposite of entropy is reduces (as entropy rises).
So the problem is the increase of entropy, and that I've also answered earlier in this thread. (The teleportation blabla)
@Doomforge
I'm not surprised you "kinda agree with Mytical" as his points seem identical to yours to a large degree.
[I'm out of time, I'll edit this answer tomorrow. Have a pleasent evening]
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 08:37 PM |
|
|
No, the increase in entropy has nothing to do with it. It is because LIFE itself needs energy supply. Of course the Universe will be there forever and nothing will be "consumed", but since we're talking about the "precious" thing here called life, the laws of conservation do NOT apply -- life is SUCKING energy/matter, so to speak, from this viewpoint, not merely "transforming" it.
And the overpopulation counterargument isn't valid -- because when I say immortal I mean humans, as we currently are, not in a "meta-mind" state or whatever.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 14, 2009 08:55 PM |
|
|
OhforfSake - not really. I'm not sure about the boredom part. I think it's more of a problem with limited memory and our brain POSSIBLY having a really hard time to cope - also overpopulation and other problems. But boredom... not really sure. Thus I kinda agree, but not fully.
In the end if we keep forgetting stuff, we can replay, say, the same game again, and get the thrill of doing so again... because we totally forgot about it. Well, that can be good, actually. Think of it, first time tastes best and you can have infinite "first times", wow.
Still, I don't think I'd want to live forever... not in this state. But again, as a Christian, I don't really care.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 15, 2009 06:48 AM |
|
|
Obviously no one HAS to live forever, if they don't want to - since that isn't a naturally born ability, there would have to be some kind of "treatment" for living on, and no one would be forced to undergo that.
So where's the problem?
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 15, 2009 06:51 AM |
|
|
If one supports medical advances that extend life expectancy, then I don't see how one can oppose this. "Discovery A lengthens live expectancy by a year! Yay!" "Discovery B lengthens life expectancy by 2 years! Yay!" "Discovery C lengthens live expectancy by x years, where x is whatever the user wants it to be! Boo!" Rather inconsistent, no?
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
|
posted September 15, 2009 07:09 AM |
|
|
Bicentennial Man.
If you were to watch it backwards, you'd end up with an immortal robot with no feelings.
Seriously though, life is all about the purpose we give it. It has no inherent purpose. We are born, we grow up, we die. What gives life meaning is what we do, and the struggles we have along the way. It's an interesting philosophical question to wonder about things such as the value of love and happiness. The Bicentennial Man gave up his mechanical immortality to become another human, all because of love.
What value does immortality truly have in the grand scale of things? If you were the only immortal on the planet, wouldn't the pain of loss be worse than death?
I like the discussion guys, just thought I should add something.
Also, ITT: tl;dr (mostly).
____________
If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 15, 2009 07:21 AM |
|
|
Quote:
If you were the only immortal on the planet, wouldn't the pain of loss be worse than death?
I don't see why that's so. We certainly don't think so now, so why would we think differently with infinite lifespans?
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
|
|
posted September 15, 2009 07:27 AM |
|
|
Well, at least in my case, I'm extremely emotional, so that could be part of the issue.
However, imagine getting married every X amount of time and then losing that person X+Y time later, and still being alive after a seemingly infinite amount of time. I just get the feeling that it's gonna affect that person somehow (whether he/she becomes cold and can shake it off or not is something else entirely).
But, you're right Mvass, t'is a cold world we live in. 
____________
If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 15, 2009 07:29 AM |
|
|
If you're that emotional, you could choose to not be immortal. No one's going to be forced into it, right? So what's the problem?
Quote:
However, imagine getting married every X amount of time and then losing that person X+Y time later, and still being alive after a seemingly infinite amount of time.
They could become immortal too. Just a thought.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
|
|
posted September 15, 2009 07:35 AM |
|
|
Quote:
They could become immortal too. Just a thought.
This scenario was operating under the assumption that you were the only immortal. Otherwise, of course they could become immortal too.
Quote:
If you're that emotional, you could choose to not be immortal. No one's going to be forced into it, right? So what's the problem?
Well if everyone could become immortal, no problem at all.
Otherwise we get into the nasty gray area of what has more value, and that we could debate for days. (Don't try it! )
____________
If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 15, 2009 09:29 AM |
|
|
Sounds like Highlander.
JJ: There is no problem, as immortality is abstract. We're just debating whether it's useful or not, good or not, etc.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted September 15, 2009 09:43 AM |
|
Edited by Lexxan at 09:46, 15 Sep 2009.
|
Quote Wars ahead!!!
<*runs*>
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
| |
|
|
