|
| Thread: Native Americans |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
posted October 05, 2009 10:12 PM |
|
|
Native Americans
This is especially to Elodin.
How do you endure the fact that your beloved country was formed by force-taking the land by European settlers from the right owners?
What do you think of Indian reservations? Even though they got better in time, don't you think that it was pretty inhuman to gather people in such ghettos - with all the problems it brought, especially in the past: starvation, poverty?
Should people be "removed" of their lands and put into reservations because the European settlers wanted the best land for themselves? How does it differ from Third Reich's method of eliminating Slavs to get the "living space" for "real people"?
How do you view the fact that the 20 medals of honor were never taken away from the "heroes" of Wounded Knee? ("heroes" that did a "heroic deed" of, ummm, slaughtering unarmed fleeing women and children).
Are you aware that your country's constitution was inspired by Iroquois' "Gayanashagowa"? Isn't it shameful that the "wild people", mostly exterminated by the settlers, actually were far more civilized then their opressors?
Those questions were mainly for Elodin, but if any of you US guys wants to add something, go ahead
Oh, and it would be good if you could inform us about the current situation of Native Americans.
I'm just curious.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 05, 2009 11:18 PM |
|
|
How do you endure the fact that your beloved country was formed by force-taking the land by European settlers from the right owners?
It doesn't bother me in the least. I don't even think about it. First, it wasn't me who did it. Second, it wasn't even my ancestors who did it. Third, it's the same thing that's happened literally thousands of times throughout history around the world and probably every modern country was formed the same way at some point in history. Forth, it's also much the same way of nature. Fifth, the Native Americans themselves did the same thing, just less often and on a smaller scale because the population density was so small.
What do you think of Indian reservations? Even though they got better in time, don't you think that it was pretty inhuman to gather people in such ghettos - with all the problems it brought, especially in the past: starvation, poverty?
Much of the what I said above applies. The concept of reservations is pretty weird, but I don't feel bad or guilty about it in any way. As a side note, just last night I was looking at pictures and Youtube videos of what I consider to be two of the most beautiful places on earth, both of which happen to be on indian reservations, and I envy them for it.
Should people be "removed" of their lands and put into reservations because the European settlers wanted the best land for themselves? How does it differ from Third Reich's method of eliminating Slavs to get the "living space" for "real people"?
The past is the past, there's nothing that can realistically be done about it now. And it wasn't really the same thing as the Third Reich, it was more of a population expansion which crowded out the earlier inhabitants than an actual conquering.
How do you view the fact that the 20 medals of honor were never taken away from the "heroes" of Wounded Knee? ("heroes" that did a "heroic deed" of, ummm, slaughtering unarmed fleeing women and children).
I don't know anything about this and don't really care about minor details from that long ago.
Are you aware that your country's constitution was inspired by Iroquois' "Gayanashagowa"? Isn't it shameful that the "wild people", mostly exterminated by the settlers, actually were far more civilized then their opressors?
I've never heard of such a thing and it sounds like BS. The US constitution, as are all legal documents, are based on the knowledge and experiences of the people who wrote it. It's heavily modeled after British law and other European systems from the past, going back to antiquity. If there was some aspect or idea that came from the Iroquois, so what? It would just blend in with other 99% that came from other knowledge and experience.
I realize everyone loves their American bashing, but while you're at it you can ask the same questions of Canadians, Mexicans, Cubans, Nicaraguans, Brazilians, Peruvians, Panamanians...well, you get the point. And if the theory is correct that the "native" Americans crossed into N America after being pushed out of Asia, ask whoever it was in Asia or Europe why they pushed them into N America in the first place.
Yea, what happened to the native population is sad, but again, that's the history of the world and it's happened thousands of times before. I won't carry around guilt about the history of mankind.
Why are you asking Americans anyway? Why don't you ask the guilty party, the Europeans? After all, American history IS European history.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted October 05, 2009 11:58 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The past is the past, there's nothing that can realistically be done about it now.
I think we both know that something can be done, why won't you admit that you don't WANT it instead? (which is a WHOLE different matter altogether)
I find your "it was a long time ago" arguments unsound -- where is the line drawn? And more precisely, WHY is the line drawn there? Anything to back it up?
Death doesn't excuse it, because you INHERITED the land in the first place. If your daddy bought a mansion but then got in huge debt and died, you don't seriously expect the people who lend him money in the first place (or their children -- they INHERITED the "interest" (for the money) in this case, just like YOU inherited the "mansion") to just "deal with it" right?
Don't complain if they get your mansion from you, it wasn't yours to begin with, it was indebted that never got paid.
You might say that you have nothing to do with what your daddy did (although you wouldn't have the mansion in the first place otherwise), but why would THEY suffer because of your daddy? Why THEY and not YOU, since after all, he was YOUR daddy?
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted October 05, 2009 11:59 PM |
|
|
I don't think this is about making you feel bad for being American, I think this thread's about showing certain Americans that their country isn't founded on liberty and God-given endless goodness any more than any other.
I have a deep mourning for northern Native Americans, as I find their culture to be the closest to my soul. Then again, as Binabik said, that's not the only case of planned extermination of that sort throughout history. The idea is just that some countries' skeletons in the closet are presented more than some others' (Roman crimes were mentioned quite rarely when the Romans ruled the world, for example; and there is always some superpower of that sort).
Still, two centuries ago is not as far away in history as Americans like to think.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 12:26 AM |
|
|
One question for you guys, just how many Americans do you think are actually descended from the people who settled what is now the US? It's not very many. Most American families haven't been here more than a few generations.
To refine a question I already asked and you guys didn't answer, why are you asking Americans instead of the English and French?
@Bak, are you asking why we don't hold grudges and hatred for hundreds of years like the ethic groups in the Balkans? That concept is so totally foreign to us that we can't even grasp the idea, it's completely beyond our comprehension. I see stuff like that and shake my head in wonder, it amazes me that it can even exist.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 12:31 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I find your "it was a long time ago" arguments unsound -- where is the line drawn?
At the point of the death of the original owner or thief, whichever is first. Why? Because none of the others have anything to do with the property.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 12:35 AM |
|
|
But they do... through possesion you are connected to the origin of the possesion, and also agreeing to the origin... so by owning a stolen object, you agree to stealing in the way that you accept the thief.
____________
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 12:38 AM |
|
|
Quote:
through possesion you are connected to the origin of the possesion, and also agreeing to the origin
No.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 12:41 AM |
|
Edited by Shares at 00:41, 06 Oct 2009.
|
As stunning arguement as usual... Let's stop. Before we start.
____________
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 12:42 AM |
|
Edited by baklava at 00:45, 06 Oct 2009.
|
Quote:
@Bak, are you asking why we don't hold grudges and hatred for hundreds of years like the ethic groups in the Balkans? That concept is so totally foreign to us that we can't even grasp the idea, it's completely beyond our comprehension. I see stuff like that and shake my head in wonder, it amazes me that it can even exist.
Yeah.
(Please note I didn't really mention anyone's grudges or hatred but now that the question's been raised...)
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 12:45 AM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 00:46, 06 Oct 2009.
|
Quote:
One question for you guys, just how many Americans do you think are actually descended from the people who settled what is now the US? It's not very many. Most American families haven't been here more than a few generations.
I'm not talking about the people themselves, obviously, because in my example, people can't get "indebted"...
That mansion is still in debt, even if it's bought by a foreigner from your daddy before he passed away. (although the foreigner must not be blamed for it, of course -- unless daddy told him and he still agreed)
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:09 AM |
|
|
Lol yeah I dont understand the american Thanksgiving. From what I have heard its something about saying thanks to the native americans because you got their country. Okay so you say thanks to people you practially exterminated?
Or maybe I just got the event wrong O.o
I think I got this opinion from the Simpsons but im not sure.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:15 AM |
|
|
Current condition? Well I was raised in Washington State and was inundated with reservations. Nasty! They are very unclean as a whole and take pride in the fact that they live off the government. Just think about a bunch of welfare users walking through the walmart line proud they just bought lobster but replace that with a few Natives and a booze line.
____________
Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:17 AM |
|
|
Might be that way but the government itself is responsible for them being in that stage. 
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:18 AM |
|
|
Well I was born in the US, but am the son of Puerto Rican parents, and seeing as how I live in Puerto Rico now, I'm gonna use the classic example that applies to us as a people:
Spain came in the 1500's (well a bit earlier, go read the Christopher Colombus stuff. ) and took over the island, with brutal force. The Arawak/Taíno tribes were nearly exterminated by warfare and sickness. Afterwards, the remaining natives were enslaved and forced to work constructing cities, mining, etc. The process of interracial mixing was already starting, because what's a good conquest without well...you get the idea.
Anyways, considering that most Puerto Ricans have at least a little native blood in them, I could be petty and hold a grudge against Spaniards. But, what purpose would that serve? For all of the pain they caused many peoples (Africans became slaves after the Puerto Rican natives), if they hadn't done this, we wouldn't be here today.
Life is just one big cause and effect. Forgive and forget is what I always say. I don't condone their actions, but I think a Puerto Rican poet had the right idea. He wrote about praising the blood of the Africans and natives that slaved to make the island the way it is today without free will (in other words, do or die, and they did it anyways).
I don't understand grudges at all. Why live with hatred? It'll just consume your heart, you know? 
____________
If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
|
|
violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:20 AM |
|
|
Ok, however the whites are responsible for repressing African Americans as well. When uncle Danny plays with your wee wee as a child he his responsible for screwing your head up. Do we use these as an excuse for ever and just allow ourselves to live in the slums and live off everyone else? At some point you can't use this as an excuse. It is easier for them to get jobs then an average white person, there are no more excuses, not anymore.
____________
Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:22 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I don't understand grudges at all. Why live with hatred? It'll just consume your heart, you know?
Nah, talking about reasonable grudges here, I can't believe how people can "forgive" without a good reason. To me this is one big weakness, not just it says that you don't have enough of a will to do it (because, as you say, it would "consume your heart" if you are too weak), but you also openly LET them win (if they still live) or their ideologies live.
It's like letting someone rape you and then forgive him, without fighting back (not necessarily physically). Total cowardly in my opinion.
If you don't have "enemies", your life is worth nothing, because you don't have anything to stand up for.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:23 AM |
|
|
LOL Bak, I knew you were going to do that. But if you look at the timeline you really can't compare. Some of the ethic hatred in other parts of the world goes back literally hundreds or even thousands of years....that's what I find totally beyond comprehension.
No, you didn't raise the question directly, but I was really addressing what you said about 200 years wasn't very long. Neither of us can put ourselves in the other's shoes and grow up again in a different place, but I really think we just have a different concept of time in this country than you guys in Europe do. You see your distant history all over the place. I think it becomes built into your consciousness because you are surrounded by it and constantly reminded of it. All of us in the "new world" don't have that constant reminder of our past. When we look around it's non-existent. The only history we have is from books, and that's far less real than walking through cities that are hundreds of years old.
Other than books, it would be hard for me to find any visual reminder of anything over about 100 years old. As a matter of fact, I think probably more than half of this country has been build in my own lifetime. So as a nation, I think we just have a different concept of time.
|
|
violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:25 AM |
|
|
You don't need enemies just beliefs..You can have that without enemies.
____________
Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 06, 2009 01:28 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Lol yeah I dont understand the american Thanksgiving. From what I have heard its something about saying thanks to the native americans because you got their country. Okay so you say thanks to people you practially exterminated?
Or maybe I just got the event wrong O.o
It has very little to do with the native Americans. It's basically just a harvest festival like has been celebrated in most countries throughout history. And it still is in a lot of countries using various names. When this country was setteled they just carried on the same tradition they had in England before migrating here.
|
| |
|
|
