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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 21, 2011 11:49 PM |
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@Elodin
Quote:
That would be murder. It would be no different than kidnapping someone to harvest his organs because you could transplant a heart in one person, a kidney in another, ect, killing one life but saving more by "redistributing" his organs to others who "need" them.
Is 7.0 murder as well?
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted April 21, 2011 11:54 PM |
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So, is this before or after I made the man godfather of my children?
Seriously though, yeah with that knowledge I don't think even I would hesitate much about pushing him.
I would push him.
To explain more about 7.1
The reason why I don't think I would do it is that in the heat of the hour I wouldn't be able to make such a tough decision where I personally kills a person. (even if the killing saves 5 other...)
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 22, 2011 12:45 AM |
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Quote:
Dilemma #7
For our next dilemma, we will revert to a classic:
A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are five people who have been tied to the track by a villain. Fortunately, you could flip a switch, which will lead the trolley down a different track to safety. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch or do nothing?
Thoughts?
In this case you must chose a path. You chose the path that causes the least harm.
Quote:
Dilemma 7.2
The man who you could push in front of the train to stop it is actually the villain who tied the people down.
Push him. Kill the villain to save the victims.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 22, 2011 12:47 AM |
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For our next dilemma,
A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are five people who have been tied to the track by a villain. You are standing next to the track. If you jump in front of the trolly it will likely kill you but derail the trolly, thus saving the other five people. What do you do?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 22, 2011 02:02 AM |
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I do nothing, unless the five people are my family/kids. Now show me the one who says he will sacrifice for unknown people, so I can laugh in his face. Not everyone is Clark Kent.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted April 22, 2011 02:12 AM |
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Why would you jump to save your family?
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Warlord
Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
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posted April 22, 2011 02:23 AM |
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Quote:
Why would you jump to save your family?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 22, 2011 03:36 AM |
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Quote:
A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are five people who have been tied to the track by a villain. You are standing next to the track. If you jump in front of the trolly it will likely kill you but derail the trolly, thus saving the other five people. What do you do?
I don't jump. I'm not sacrificing my life for anyone or anything, because if I die, it's all over and nothing matters anyway.
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Eccentric Opinion
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violentflowers
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 22, 2011 03:41 AM |
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Five strangers, each one with his/hers own sins, own off kilter moral compass at some point in their lives; no better than I no worse. The question is do you value your life more than the life of a stranger or five strangers? Does the very number cause one to lean more one way than the other? Either you feel that low of yourself where your only chance of redemption is to throw your own life down for others or you feel that selfless and you do the "right" thing.
____________
A wise and frugal government,
which shall leave men free to
regulate their own pursuits of
industry and improvement, and
shall not take from the mouth
of labor the bread it has
earned - th... too long to display...
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 22, 2011 03:51 AM |
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Hiya VF - nice to see you back!
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 22, 2011 04:40 AM |
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Quote:
Five strangers, each one with his/hers own sins, own off kilter moral compass at some point in their lives; no better than I no worse. The question is do you value your life more than the life of a stranger or five strangers? Does the very number cause one to lean more one way than the other? Either you feel that low of yourself where your only chance of redemption is to throw your own life down for others or you feel that selfless and you do the "right" thing.
I like this man. 
7.2: I didn't have a problem throwing the faceless fatman. Why would my answer change for this murderer? 
Elodin's: I do value myself higher than those five, sorry. I have no need for redemption pushing at my heart right now, and, well, I like life.
Question all, if just one person can derail this trolly, then wouldn't it be derailed after it hit the first victim?
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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violentflowers
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 22, 2011 04:56 AM |
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Quote:
Hiya VF - nice to see you back!
Hi you, just need val to reinstate my stuff on my old account for me. Glad to be back!
____________
A wise and frugal government,
which shall leave men free to
regulate their own pursuits of
industry and improvement, and
shall not take from the mouth
of labor the bread it has
earned - th... too long to display...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 22, 2011 10:12 AM |
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VF, is that you? heya, always liked your posts
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 22, 2011 11:05 AM |
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Ok, seriously:
These are all pseudo dilemmata only.
The reason is that in these dilemmata there is no direct connection between the killing and the saving. Here, in my opinion the problem is this: Even IF you kill one person, it's not a certainty that this will result in saving the others - you can't GUARANTEE it.
Conversely, even IF you kill one person, and the other 5 are saved, you can't know what would have happened if you did NOT kill the other person.
So the real question is this: in these cases, are you in some way OBLIGED TO ACT? The answer is no - you can opt to do nothing, since there is no law of saving greater numbers. I would act only if I had a personal interest in one side: if the one person was my wife and on the other rail there were five strangers I would very probably try to save my wife.
If I do nothing, it's the perp who is responsible for what happens. If I act, it's my decision to change the "course of events", and consequently it's my responsibility. If I succeed I'm responsible for saving 5 lives, but I'm also responsbile for sacrificing one. If I do nothing I simply don't take responsibility.
So from this point as well, I would act only if I had a personal stake in it.
That is doubly true for killing someone directly (who is not responsible), that is, having no connection to the thing. This would be
Everyday Moral Dilemma 7.666
You get a call. The voice tells you, that you have to kill a random person any way you want. You will be watched. If you don't do it, the caller will kill 10 random persons.
What do you do?
Answer: Nothing (at least you won't kill anyone).
Does this change if the threat gets more specific? If you are supposed to kill a certain person? If the caller threatens to kill people you know and maybe are dear to you?
Answer: No.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 22, 2011 11:15 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 11:22, 22 Apr 2011.
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you are sure you can make a trolley derail that way?
imagine, you kill yourself, and that doesn't stop the trolley from killing the 5 other dudes 
Quote:
If I do nothing, it's the perp who is responsible for what happens. If I act, it's my decision to change the "course of events", and consequently it's my responsibility. If I succeed I'm responsible for saving 5 lives, but I'm also responsbile for sacrificing one. If I do nothing I simply don't take responsibility.
if you don't do anything, it your decision and your responsability too?
do they talk about the survivor complex in english? (complexe du survivant)? feeling bad for being alive while you saw a lots of people dying? and thinking you should have sacrificed yourself?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 22, 2011 11:33 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
. If I do nothing I simply don't take responsibility.
if you don't do anything, it your decision and your responsability too?
No, that's why these pseudo-dilemmata. It's not your responsibility, it's the perp's one, and it stays that way. Your "chance" to do something is just an illusion, because you are presented "loaded dice" so-to-speak. Your chance is reduced to what an ill-willing, sadistic entity is allowing you, and if you have any responsibility at all, than it's to thwart him and not accept the conditions. See Dilemma 7.666.
See it the other way. Suppose there is an accident and you are on location. Will you start to think about whom you will save and why? I think not. You will try and save whom you can, deserved or not, lucky or not, simply because opportunity presents itself. Even though saving a specific person means not saving another one, you just do what you can to SAVE someone, so it's a WINNING situation.
The ACTUAL problem, however, is a losing one. THE EVILDOER could save them all, but his purpose is to force you into a losing situation.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 22, 2011 12:47 PM |
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dilemma 7.666 kinda makes me think of the movie "the box"
how exactly will the guy be sure that you really killed someone? he would have to follow you all the time.
though in the movie, it's even more weird, pushing the button is supposed to kill someone, but the button is seemingly fake, how can they know you pushed it?
you will never know if he killed those 10 people and if he ever really intended to do it. the chances are high that he doesn't plan to kill anyone himself but he is just playing with you, since you actually have no way to be sure.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 22, 2011 01:11 PM |
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These little everyday dilemmas kick ass.
PS
Quote:
Now show me the one who says he will sacrifice for unknown people, so I can laugh in his face.
What's important to understand here, children, is that this man does not download music off the internet because that would be immoral.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 22, 2011 01:36 PM |
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Indeed  Not only immoral but an act of thievery. But I have an excuse, would be like stealing from my colleagues.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 22, 2011 02:57 PM |
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Dilemma number 42.
You are given the choice to either download Mozart's new CD off the internet (let us pretend, for the sake of the dilemma, that Mozart came back to life and hates piracy), which he would find out, and sue you and be forever disappointed in you, and not allow you to play any of his music again, and your wife would divorce you and take the children and never answer your phone calls, and your family would renounce you OR to distract a ravaging tyrannosaurus chasing some people you don't know and selflessly get eaten and possibly raped by the dinosaur so that they could live, and then be celebrated as a hero and make Mozart write a new piece just for you.
What do you do?
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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This thread is pages long: 
