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| Thread: What is the WORST decision in Heroes developing history? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 10, 2010 05:39 PM |
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And you just have to charge against the opponent with at least some creatures and give a chance to the gated units to appear, otherwise he charges against you and wipes you out.
What makes you think the enemy will always wipes you out when he charges? I've withstood enemy charges playing as Inferno before. It doesn't mean catastrophic defeat.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 10, 2010 05:44 PM |
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Actually playing defensively with demons was often a good idea.. Power of endurance, gate like crazy(possibly with gating boosters) and then either keep up with mass dark/mass haste or frenzy. Unless the opponent charges you, you can crush him under the weight of superior forces. Ofc after that initial preparation it's the time to go offensive, depends what faction you are trying it against. Definitely not vs dungeon 
If I remember correctly, Inferno gained access to Power of Speed in TotE. Can't remember about Power of Endurance. And you are more or less confirming Inferno's perfect template - Dark Spells + support abilities to make the creatures at least somewhat durable + all the possible boosts for Gating, with Fast Gating being the most important. And you just have to charge against the opponent with at least some creatures and give a chance to the gated units to appear, otherwise he charges against you and wipes you out.
But in any case, that's not my point or at least not entirely. Not much space to "think outside the box", see. 
Wait wait wait, you were the one saying Inferno was all about offensive, then when we say it's not unusual for Demons to play defense instead, so then now you're saying Demons are supposed to play defense?
You can play Demons both ways, you can play them very aggressively, rush in, try and get as many of the first hits as possible, pepper your opponent with Dark magic to soften their defenses and tangle up their units, getting some warmachine support with flaming arrows and triple shots, even nuke reasonably well with destructive.
Or you play them defensively, stall using summoning and dark/light magic to boost durability whilst blocking off with gated creatures, only moving in to attack after the enemy has blunted himself on your gated stacks.
Both work, and I know this from having done both.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 06:02 PM |
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What makes you think the enemy will always wipes you out when he charges? I've withstood enemy charges playing as Inferno before. It doesn't mean catastrophic defeat.
It means the beginning of defeat. Care to explain how did you withstand them exactly?
Mr. Dragon, once again you are misinterpreting my posts. On purpose, as it seems. What I said is that Inferno can employ skills that make its creatures more durable, not that it can stand an offensive - like, say, Sylvan or Haven, or Necropolis or even Dungeon - the latter at least have tough creatures to hold the line for a while. When you play Inferno, you don't rely on ranged superiority, you don't rely on tough creatures, you don't rely on powerful spells - you rely on numbers and shaking the opponent enough to prevent the massacre of your own army. For this purpose, you have to charge with all that can charge against fast opponents or ones with serious range damage capabilities (Sylvan, Haven, Dungeon with its spells) or Gate with everything and then charge against slow ones (Necropolis). And I am not talking about some marginal or unrealistic scenarios here.
By the way, you are only talking about Inferno and dodging the much more important rest. Will please someone tell me how can you employ diverse tactics when you don't have access to half of the skills in the game and when most of your creatures are designed in accordance with the faction's predominant behavior? Or more specifically, how HoMM V manages to achieve this better than HoMM III?
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 10, 2010 06:46 PM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 18:48, 10 Nov 2010.
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Both are different takes on playing the same faction, you're still handeling the same units, but that goes for HoMMIII as well, you're not going to play "keep away" with Fortress, they have only 1 shooter, and it's not a very good one.
Fortress really has only one option, that is charge in.
Either with magical backup with with massive stat boosts from a might hero, but those two strategies are much closer then HV's Inferno with two different builds that involve you doing widely different things, even if both of those are covering for the same fragility of Inferno units, at least it plays different.
Zeno, I've got a better question for you.
How do HoMMIII's factions play differently, and I mean really differently?
They all at their cores played the same, just got shooters and/or flyers at different tiers and possibly different amounts.
Fortress shone and was loved by many because it was the closest a faction came to really setting itself apart, with a good selection of unique creature abilities.
Or how do you diversify your hero with so few viable skill combinations?
All you had was two different classes, which was better then HoMMV's one class per faction, yeah, by miles, but build diversity was not very diverse at all.
I've also got a better weapon, non-standardized Hero specializations.
HoMMIII's hero specs were horribly dull and beyond specific creature boosts, every faction had the same ones.
I play Nymmus for full gating, really build towards ANY perks that effect gating, Grawl I'll creep early, creep fast and take maximum care of my hounds because by mid game I'll have a massive lead with them spearheading, then of course there's that ballista woman (she needs some balancing tweaks BAD) but that suddenly makes Inferno ranged quite viable indeed.
Oooh, the logisitics guy with teleport, really opens up some interesting plays.
HoMMV was limited yes, very much so, but when compared to HoMMIII, the number of viable builds that actually play different are staggering.
So far HoMMVI seems to be aiming for taking the stuff that was great about HoMMIII and HoMMV and throwing in some of their own stuff as well.
Edit: Once more I would like to remind people I was pretty much on the fence when it came HoMMV vs HoMMIII untill I installed and played III again, I've taken off my rose tinted specs and am now very much on the HoMMV side of the field when it comes to overall gameplay.
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Alustor
Famous Hero
ooo da :)
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posted November 10, 2010 07:22 PM |
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What is the WORST decision in Heroes developing history?
heroes 5 necromancy system
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 10, 2010 08:15 PM |
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Ok, so I would like to ask you, what do you think is the single worst decision ever made by a Heroes developing team during the course of the game history?
I've tried to select some worthy candidates, if there's something else that comes to mind, feel free to elaborate.
When there are no options from Heroes 3 or prior, it's not because I think Heroes 3 was a perfect game, but because until then, it seems to be steadily improving, which (imo) has not been the case for later versions.
It's hard to pick one. Reducing factions is probably the worst. I dislike having to buy "expansions" to have more play variety. Follow-ups should be for other reasons than the "breadth of the world". Releasing the Editor more like an 'afterthought in H5' vs.H3 was a horrible decision. But if the game is not good; who wants to make a map?
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"Do your own research"
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 08:55 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:56, 10 Nov 2010.
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Both are different takes on playing the same faction, you're still handeling the same units, but that goes for HoMMIII as well, you're not going to play "keep away" with Fortress, they have only 1 shooter, and it's not a very good one.
Fortress really has only one option, that is charge in.
No, it has much more, provided by the mechanics of the game. Fortress has the toughest army overall, if you take into account that most of the heroes have Armourer and one of them even specializes in the ability. Its level 5 and level 7 creatures are tough on their own, the rest are averagely or above averagely durable. This means that it can stand tons of conventional damage. With a good spell caster, you can play as defensively as you want, often it's even preferable to wait for the opponent to attack you. And here's the difference - in HoMM III you can turn virtually every Magic hero into a good spell caster. The necessary spells can be learned through scrolls, tomes, Scholars, in neutral towns with access to level 4/5 Mage Guild and so on. It's really easy most of the time and the game does not restrict you deliberately. In HoMM V you simply can not do that - Inferno can handle two magic schools and of them only Dark magic actually helps if the game is longer than a month or so. And its creatures can't take a lot of punishment. So - offensive or R.I.P.
If you want another example, let it be Inferno from HoMM III. It can charge because most of its creatures are melee fighters, or it can stay where it is and rely on spells and the flexibility of the Devils - one very powerful creature if you can use it correctly. Just about a week ago I used exactly this approach against a Necropolis player - and Necropolis has much better range department, among other things - and when he was lured into offensive, his creatures got killed one by one due to their lesser flexibility.
I can go on and on with examples, but it should be clear enough already.
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How do HoMMIII's factions play differently, and I mean really differently?
They do not play drastically differently themselves, although there are quite serious differences between them. The total number of combinations in HoMM III however is much, and I mean MUCH larger than what you have in HoMM V. I play HoMM III for more than 10 years now and I still find new ways to handle one and the same situation. You can combine armies from different towns, you can use all the spells available in the game, you have access to all the skills and your army can be under any hero, no matter his/her faction alignment. None of this is valid in HoMM V - the creatures are balanced only for their own factions and racial abilities, when combining different armies the moral penalty could ba ridiculously high, you don't have access to more than a limited amount of skills and they usually circle around the mentioned perfect template, you employ only one magic school most of the time and 2 at most and the heroes of each faction are just not designed to lead the creatures of another, with minor exceptions.
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HoMMIII's hero specs were horribly dull and beyond specific creature boosts, every faction had the same ones.
Except maybe the quite many heroes specializing in some ability or spell. Solmyr, Ayden, Sandro, Loynis... And note that I don't deny that the specialization in HoMM V were more diversified, but that this was far from enough to make the game itself checkered. Like many other things which were far from enough.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted November 10, 2010 09:04 PM |
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I actually am very for the cutscenes, I never read the dialogue boxes in Heroes 3 unless they weren't that long or funny, and I just didn't think the story was that entertaining until I could actually see what was happening in Heroes 5.
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Vini Vidi Vici
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 10, 2010 09:09 PM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 21:43, 10 Nov 2010.
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Well, what's clear is that we're not going to agree.
I'll leave it at that.
Edit: I was about to add, Veco told me it was pointless to argue, and then he comes back and does it anyway.
Veco, I think it's time we both listened to your advice.
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 10, 2010 09:20 PM |
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Edited by veco at 21:25, 10 Nov 2010.
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I didn't want to post here again but this is bugging me too much
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in HoMM III you can turn virtually every Magic hero into a good spell caster. The necessary spells can be learned through scrolls, tomes, Scholars, in neutral towns with access to level 4/5 Mage Guild and so on.
How does this not apply to H5? Simple - it does.
Sure, if you pick Might heroes it won't work that well but Light/Dark work well even with low spellpower.
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You can combine armies from different towns, you can use all the spells available in the game, you have access to all the skills and your army can be under any hero, no matter his/her faction alignment. None of this is valid in HoMM V - the creatures are balanced only for their own factions and racial abilities,
This is half true. Orcs and dwarves are hard to mix but other than them you can make it work easily. You just need to try.
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when combining different armies the moral penalty could ba ridiculously high,
yeah, -1/-2
You see, if any H3 hero can learn any skill/magic easily and lead any army doesn't that make them all play very similiar? Some magic heroes are unlikely to learn Fire magic or might skills just as H5 Dwarves are unlikely to learn Dark. H5 doesn't forbid you from learning those it just makes them unlikely (and you can increase your chances by levelling up correctly), the same way H3 does.
you know what, forget it
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none of my business.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 09:46 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:47, 10 Nov 2010.
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veco, I have the impression that you are both trying to prove some point and to play the wise man who refuses to speak with biased ignorants, but in the end you achieved nothing. Delete the "argumentation" part of your post and say something like "Don't bother, you'll never listen anyway". It sounds weighty and is a good way to come out of any debate.  See Mr. Dragon's post for reference.
By the way I am fully aware that we won't agree on anything - this is clear since the very beginning. The point was to sort out a few things, that's all. Besides you guys decided to prove me wrong, not the other way around.
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 10, 2010 10:08 PM |
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Edited by veco at 22:09, 10 Nov 2010.
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Yes, it is as you say but the reason why I got involved (I rarely do) is because some of the things you posted are simply false so here I am, standing with my Fork of Truth pointing those out. I fully understand that you might consider H3 more diverse and that I am biased towards H5 but if you say that a faction in H5 is limited to only 1/2 magic schools and then say that in H3 it isn't because of magic scrolls and scholars I feel rubbed the wrong way. I didn't want you to accept my point of view, just acknowledge some facts you might've missed. And now I don't, I vented enough.
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none of my business.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 10, 2010 10:23 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:26, 10 Nov 2010.
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I don't think I've missed anything regarding HoMM III - neither I said that scrolls and scholars are the primary source of magic or whatever - but more likely regarding HoMM V. But even if I don't know absolutely every detail, I had played the latter game for several months (and two or three more after the release of TotE) before being overwhelmed by the increasing repetitiousness and the technical flaws, so I think I know what happens most of the time in most of the games. Calling the black white doesn't make it any lighter. But no point in discussing this any further indeed.
Just for the record, I am the last person here who will say that HoMM III was a perfect game and there was no room for improvement. It's all about the concept of improvement really.
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 11, 2010 02:46 AM |
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And here's the difference - in HoMM III you can turn virtually every Magic hero into a good spell caster.
Then what's the point of having different selection of hero? Just have one might and one magic hero throughout the entire game. But good news for you, H6 may allow you to do so.
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If you want another example, let it be Inferno from HoMM III. It can charge because most of its creatures are melee fighters, or it can stay where it is and rely on spells and the flexibility of the Devils - one very powerful creature if you can use it correctly. Just about a week ago I used exactly this approach against a Necropolis player - and Necropolis has much better range department, among other things - and when he was lured into offensive, his creatures got killed one by one due to their lesser flexibility.
I can go on and on with examples, but it should be clear enough already.
Define this "flexibility". Imo, your example is more or less the same
as Mrdragon which you have dismissed.
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They do not play drastically differently themselves, although there are quite serious differences between them.
Care to explain? Seems like a contradiction statement (not different but different???, p and -p).
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You can combine armies from different towns, you can use all the spells available in the game, you have access to all the skills and your army can be under any hero, no matter his/her faction alignment.
Again, what's the point of having different factions then? No need for faction or hero selection anymore, just start the game and play like King's Bounty.
Overall, I think you want to tear down the importance of faction and hero selection in determining gameplay style.
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and Necropolis has much better range department, among other things
How so? The only ranged unit is Lich which is tier 5. Depending on the length of the game they may not even come out into play yet. Inferno has Gog which is available almost from the start.
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dibens
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 11, 2010 04:14 AM |
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Personally I love that they reduced the number of resources. How many times have you ignored flagging gem or crystal mines, because your faction didn't need them? And don't get me started on trying to memorize costs for all those dwellings. If anything, it actually increases the strategic value. Now that players have to fight for the same precious resource it will mean a more competitive gameplay.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 11, 2010 09:06 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:40, 11 Nov 2010.
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I though we were done with the HoMM V vs. HoMM III thing, but OK.
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Then what's the point of having different selection of hero? Just have one might and one magic hero throughout the entire game. But good news for you, H6 may allow you to do so.
I don't really understand the question - of course there is a difference whether you will select Sandro or Galthran, Rashka or Ayden, Mephala or Coronius, Tazar or Andra... And there is a difference between Sandro, Ayden, Coronius and Andra as well (yes, even between Ayden and Andra, they gain different primary stats when they level up). And all of the heroes can learn all the spells, with the Magic heroes beeing naturally more capable of using them if you take the artifacts out of the picture. With artifacts - everyone can become a good caster. Thus - no one is limited and you can expect virtually every spell to be cast against your army. Same goes for the opponent. Makes the game much less predictable and varied.
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Define this "flexibility". Imo, your example is more or less the same
as Mrdragon which you have dismissed.
Simple - Inferno's army in HoMM III is faster than Necropolis' army, with two creatures that can't be retaliated against. You can use if offensively or defensively because it can both take and deliver punishment due to generally balanced stats of the Demoniac or generally any selected Might hero apart from the Barbarian - the latter suitable only for offensive in the early game. As you probably know, in HoMM III you are not limited to the heroes of your own faction just because the rest can't use the racial specials or level up in a vastly different manner.
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Care to explain? Seems like a contradiction statement (not different but different???, p and -p).
The contradiction is in the eyes of the beholder. The statement is perfectly clear I think - the factions are not totally different like in HoMM V, although they are still different enough. Necropolis plays like a tank, using overwhelming numbers, Inferno relies on fast melee fighters and flexibility, Tower has three archers and some good melee creatures and usually employ defensive tactics - although it can easily attack as well - the reasons are mentioned above - Castle is well-suited to lead fast attacks which deal a lot of damage or defend where necessary (and is overpowered at both, yes) and so on. Damn, the creatures of each faction have different stats and abilities, its heroes level up in at least partially different ways - mainly concerning the primary stats. I don't know why I have to explain obvious things, are you sure that you aren't just trolling?
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Again, what's the point of having different factions then? No need for faction or hero selection anymore, just start the game and play like King's Bounty.
Overall, I think you want to tear down the importance of faction and hero selection in determining gameplay style.
The point is explained above. I tear down nothing.
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How so? The only ranged unit is Lich which is tier 5. Depending on the length of the game they may not even come out into play yet. Inferno has Gog which is available almost from the start.
What the hell?! The Lich is roughly 5 times better archer than the Gog and has splash damage from the very start (and it does not hurt friendlies when they are undead). If you play on small or medium map without underground, your argument might be counted for something, otherwise it is completely pointless.
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admira
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 11, 2010 10:21 AM |
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Funny, I always thought that thematic racial skill on all factions is the best thing ever happened to Heroes series (implemented in Heroes V). In case of more mature art, I will vote Heroes V as the best of the series.
Racial uniqueness make the game predictable? I think that is the reason why we have Heroes Specialty and the skill wheel system. Try to predict the possible combination of racial skill, Heroes' Specialty and skill of choice (on skill wheel system)?? I don't think it is predictable, the only things that make the skill of choice predictable is the imbalance skill (Triple Balista with Flaming Arrow anyone?), in which one skill is more useful than any others. IF the skills are well balance, I don't find the reason why the tactical decisions became predictable while still maintaining a nice unique thematic feels of the faction (which IMHO the best thing they should keep in the new game).
The reasons I return to Heroes III are: I feel nostalgic or I miss the dark mature art found in Heroes III or I miss a damn good AI or I miss Rampart Music and castle (seriously!).
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 11, 2010 10:53 AM |
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Makes the game much less predictable and varied.
How is it varied when all heroes can virtually cast all spells? Obviously, our idea of variety is different. And H5 is by no means easily predictable ,especially with the introduction of alternate upgrades. Different hero builds are available to explore and mixing army is not as bad as you describe.
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You can use if offensively or defensively because it can both take and deliver punishment due to generally balanced stats of the Demoniac or generally any selected Might hero apart from the Barbarian - the latter suitable only for offensive in the early game.
So it depends on the hero stats not their original stats? You have to use suitable heroes to achieve flexibility?
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Necropolis plays like a tank, using overwhelming numbers, Inferno relies on fast melee fighters and flexibility, Tower has three archers and some good melee creatures and usually employ defensive tactics - although it can easily attack as well - the reasons are mentioned above - Castle is well-suited to lead fast attacks which deal a lot of damage or defend where necessary (and is overpowered at both, yes) and so on. Damn, the creatures of each faction have different stats and abilities, its heroes level up in at least partially different ways - mainly concerning the primary stats.
Yeah, so basically you've just explain that the factions all can attack and defense. In the end, they're pretty similar.
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What the hell?! The Lich is roughly 5 times better archer than the God and has splash damage from the very start (and it does not hurt friendlies when they are undead). If you play on small or medium map without underground, your argument might be counted for something, otherwise it is completely pointless.
Seriously, you compared them in a one-on-one basis? Unit size does not even come into consideration? By the time Necro got Lich, Inferno will already have sizeable amount of Gog (assuming no massive casualties ofc) to compensate for their inferior quality compared to Lich. In the end, I don't think H3 Necro is any better in range department than Inferno at least not in a significant way.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 11, 2010 11:00 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:16, 11 Nov 2010.
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Funny, I always thought that thematic racial skill on all factions is the best thing ever happened to Heroes series (implemented in Heroes V). In case of more mature art, I will vote Heroes V as the best of the series.
Racial uniqueness make the game predictable? I think that is the reason why we have Heroes Specialty and the skill wheel system. Try to predict the possible combination of racial skill, Heroes' Specialty and skill of choice (on skill wheel system)?? I don't think it is predictable, the only things that make the skill of choice predictable is the imbalance skill (Triple Balista with Flaming Arrow anyone?), in which one skill is more useful than any others. IF the skills are well balance, I don't find the reason why the tactical decisions became predictable while still maintaining a nice unique thematic feels of the faction (which IMHO the best thing they should keep in the new game)
The racial skills ARE an improvement - and quite a good one. Making each factions hugely dependant on its racial skills and hero development pattern is NOT an improvement, because it robs the player of many possible strategies and tactis which were previously available. How many times do I have to write this, I am nearly bored of myself already!
And yes, if there were no over- and underpowered skills and spells, if each hero had broader access to skills and spells, and if each faction wasn't more or less stuck with its own hero and army, everything would have been just wonderful and I would have no reasons to write evil posts. But guess what - there are over- and underpowered skills and spells, the factions are hugely dependant on their racials and each of them has 100 reasons to chose not to mix its army with another or to employ the hero of another faction and there are quite serious limitations when the hero levels up and selects skills. I could argue that if many of the flaws of HoMM III were non-existent, it would have been a perfect game - but the game is flawed nevertheless.
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And H5 is by no means easily predictable ,especially with the introduction of alternate upgrades. Different hero builds are available to explore and mixing army is not as bad as you describe.
The hero development path is more or less predictable. However I do agree that the alternative upgrades added some more variety, although none of them changed the faction's basic behaviour and in many cases they weren't well-balanced.
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So it depends on the hero stats not their original stats? You have to use suitable heroes to achieve flexibility?
No, you are deliberately simplifying what I said. It depends both on the raw stats of the creatures and the hero stats and skills. But you are NOT restricted simply because you can't hire the necessary Might hero when you need one or just any hero at all. I getting fed up with re-phrasing one and the same thing.
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Yeah, so basically you've just explain that the factions all can attack and defense. In the end, they're pretty similar.
Yeah, they are pretty similar because they are allowed to do everything or almost everything.  This explains why no player bothers with choosing a faction when he starts the game and always plays random. 
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Seriously, you compared them in a one-on-one basis? Unit size does not even come into consideration? By the time Necro got Lich, Inferno will already have sizeable amount of Gog (assuming no massive casualties ofc) to compensate for their inferior quality compared to Lich. In the end, I don't think H3 Necro is any better in range department than Inferno at least not in a significant way.
Comments like this make me wonder if you have played HoMM III more than a few times. I won't explain why you are wrong though, the topic is about something else.
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 11, 2010 01:04 PM |
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No, you are deliberately simplifying what I said. It depends both on the raw stats of the creatures and the hero stats and skills. But you are NOT restricted simply because you can't hire the necessary Might hero when you need one or just any hero at all. I getting fed up with re-phrasing one and the same thing.
Then if I use say, Magic hero, do they still retain "flexibility"? Or do they become less "flexible"? Or is it relative on who you are fighting with? And yeah, it's been a long time since I play H3 so please enlighten me.
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Yeah, they are pretty similar because they are allowed to do everything or almost everything. This explains why no player bothers with choosing a faction when he starts the game and always plays random.
Ok, back to my first question. What's the point of having faction then? No one bother to choose a faction. Why not just mix up all the creatures into a mercenary camp or some sort?
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