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| Thread: MMH6 Ideas - Creature Themes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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jabanoss
Promising
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Property of Nightterror™
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posted November 28, 2010 03:03 AM |
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Edited by jabanoss at 03:06, 28 Nov 2010.
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Gogs, Dwarfs & Efreets in the same faction huh?
maybe there should be some other humanoid in the dwarf faction besides awesome beasts and dwarfs but not demons....  
Edit: and why does some people want wolfs?
they are just wolfs/dogs a simple animal, so boring they might as well implement cats and bunnies as well. Sure there should be wolfs but only as a neutral unit.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted November 28, 2010 03:48 AM |
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Quote:
We had a huge debate on this before, so I'll paraphrase. I like factions with races, but I didn't enjoy H5's approach at all for the most part. I prefer a balance, leaning slightly more favourably towards theme over race. My own principles are as follows:
- the faction's dominant race is much better represented by the heroes than four creatures in the lineup.
- abusive overuse of racial creatures and not enough mythological units generally make for a dull faction.
- however, there should ideally be at least two racial units per town, and at least one clearly defined main race in every town, no matter what.
Unfortunately, you could've made an entire town by combining all the Elven units in H5. Hell, they did make an entire town out of just one race - Dwarves.
I think the perfect balance was struck by the H5 Sylvan faction: the golden rule should be no more than three racial units per lineup. The Academy was just as problematic as the Fortress for me: overuse of theme, with no clear race at all.
I agree completely with the point of the heroes; that is by far the best way to represent any kind of racial theme throughout a town. I honestly felt Sylvan would have been better off with even maybe one less racial unit; I would have preferred Blade Dancers to be a natural unit, I think. However, they definitely struck a far better balance than Fortress or Dungeon did, and I do agree that Academy felt a bit all over the place. The devs seem to be conscious of the need to scale back having 4-5 racial units in the same town, at least, which is good.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted November 28, 2010 02:50 PM |
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Edited by Aatos at 14:51, 28 Nov 2010.
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I honestly felt Sylvan would have been better off with even maybe one less racial unit
Sylvan in H5 has 3 racial units: Blade Dancer, Hunter and Druid.
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The devs seem to be conscious of the need to scale back having 4-5 racial units in the same town, at least, which is good.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you contradicted yourself. You want less then 3 racial units with Sylvan, but 4-5 in any case.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2010 03:17 PM |
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Gogs, Dwarfs & Efreets in the same faction huh?
maybe there should be some other humanoid in the dwarf faction besides awesome beasts and dwarfs but not demons....
Edit: and why does some people want wolfs?
they are just wolfs/dogs a simple animal, so boring they might as well implement cats and bunnies as well. Sure there should be wolfs but only as a neutral unit.
Well, as I explained, the Fortress town in H5 was placed atop a volcano, a natural habitat for Gogs and Efreeti, I know the Gogs are a bit demonic, but they can be changed in H6 to be simply some fiery creatures/salamanders that have been living alongside Dwarves and aren't hostile for them...as for the Efreet, well it doesn't have to necessarily be a DEMON but simply an evil version of the Genie (in H4 they weren't even in Necropolis/Inferno, but in Chaos )
Wolves? It was just an idea, I don't desperately want them in a faction, however I see no problem for them to be in one; THEY HAVE BEEN in a faction in ALL HOMMs, apart from H5, so it's nothing new or bad.
Yes, they are just animals (just? its reasonable for an army to hire them as low level creatures if they're effective in battle, contrary to your bunnies and cats ). You call them boring, well animals are a lot more INTERESTING than the BORING humans that are swarming Haven for all HOMMs, yet no one seems to complain about that.
If a faction was composed EXCLUSIVELY of animals, yes it would be boring, but just one animal unit is great and adds to the diversity.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted November 28, 2010 03:41 PM |
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There were no wolfs in H3 except as wolf riders, but was a different story since then there was goblins riding them. So I'm saying I have no problems with wolf if they are used as a "riding" animal, I just don't like em when they are "alone" as a unit.
Sure the H5 fortress where on a volcano or something, so they can have fiery units, but please not efreets since they artistically more belongs to a oriental-themed faction(aka Acedemy)
Gogs might fit if they rename them and make them look less like demons. So that they become some kind of lesser humanoid living in the deep lava caves in the realm of the dwarfs.
This is just what I think however 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 28, 2010 03:45 PM |
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@ Bixie > Please control your language better. Even if your upset or annoyed, please respect the other members and stick to the rules outlined in the COC. You've been around long enough to know what they are.
Quote:
We had a huge debate on this before, so I'll paraphrase. I like factions with races, but I didn't enjoy H5's approach at all for the most part. I prefer a balance, leaning slightly more favourably towards theme over race. My own principles are as follows:
- the faction's dominant race is much better represented by the heroes than four creatures in the lineup.
- abusive overuse of racial creatures and not enough mythological units generally make for a dull faction.
- however, there should ideally be at least two racial units per town, and at least one clearly defined main race in every town, no matter what.
Unfortunately, you could've made an entire town by combining all the Elven units in H5. Hell, they did make an entire town out of just one race - Dwarves.
I think the perfect balance was struck by the H5 Sylvan faction: the golden rule should be no more than three racial units per lineup. The Academy was just as problematic as the Fortress for me: overuse of theme, with no clear race at all.
I agree with many of the points made here, and also with Bixie's post above. I think in general 3-4 racial units per faction is a good level, but I don't mind the odd divergence from this either. H5 Haven had 5 racial units and that worked fine for me; H5 Fortress with 6 racial units probably took it one step too far, however.
In the other end of the spectrum, I think H5 Academy with one "racial" unit could have worked, had the thematic aspect been more solid. Necropolis and Inferno work fine as thematic towns as well. Perhaps Academy would work better if they had in fact been a interracial town, conbining mages from different factions (remember that was what H3 Conflux did) - they still needed to find a more coherent theme for the other units, however.
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What will happen now?
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted November 28, 2010 04:16 PM |
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If we disregard the concepts and aestethics, and look at Heroes from a gameplay and game mechanics point of view the most important parts are the creature and hero skills and abilities and their synergy, in my opinion. If this is done well then the game will be fun no matter what the factions and creatures are.
Some people DO care about creatures, Like me for example.
I won't play a game without creatures, I hate games with only humanoids.
Homm3 was perfect, homm5 could be perfect if it only had 2 race based creatures in each faction.
You have misunderstood my post because I never wrote anything that matches your reply.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2010 05:42 PM |
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There were no wolfs in H3 except as wolf riders, but was a different story since then there was goblins riding them. So I'm saying I have no problems with wolf if they are used as a "riding" animal, I just don't like em when they are "alone" as a unit.
Sure the H5 fortress where on a volcano or something, so they can have fiery units, but please not efreets since they artistically more belongs to a oriental-themed faction(aka Acedemy)
Gogs might fit if they rename them and make them look less like demons. So that they become some kind of lesser humanoid living in the deep lava caves in the realm of the dwarfs.
This is just what I think however
I understand what you mean about the wolves, but don't you remember H1 & H2? Wolves were on their own in Barbarian's town and were great units to have in an army - they're powerful and don't necessarily need anyone to ride them
At least we agree on the Gog(yes, they might as well change their name) and about the Efreet, it's interesting for you to say that, since they were never in Academy (H3-Inferno, H4- Chaos) BESIDES, Academy already has the Djinn, and the Efreet is his enemy - it would be bizarre at best to have them in one faction 
If you really wouldn't want the Efreet there, what creature do you propose for a Level.6 in Fortress? (just in theory)
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jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted November 28, 2010 05:54 PM |
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Yeah I didn't really mean that about the efreet, I don't think they fit so well in any faction, they would be perfect as a neutral unit as a kind of demonic counter part of the genie.
6 level dwarf unit you say...
to be honest I liked the Thane, it was to the ONLY cool dwarf unit, so maybe they should just fix it a bit so that it makes sense lore wise(a huge dwarf lol?) by maybe change it into a giant or troll.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2010 06:07 PM |
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Hmm, I guess... it's a shame Efreet isn't in H6 Inferno then IMO
And I didn't have anything against the Thane myself, the only dwarves I didn't like were the Skirmisher and Berserker, but you have to admit that the Rune Priest was awesome
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jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted November 28, 2010 06:20 PM |
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Yup
Thanes > Fire Dragon > Rune Priests > everything else -.-
and I loved that the Rune Patriarchs had fire wall 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 28, 2010 06:20 PM |
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Homm3 was perfect, homm5 could be perfect if it only had 2 race based creatures in each faction.
Well do realize that this is your oppinion, but not everybody might agree.
While I do agree that Heroes 3 was a great game, and gameplay-wise probably better than Heroes 5 (if for nothing else because H5 was so technically bugged down that you couldn't play large maps) - but when it comes to faction line-ups, I find Heroes 5 far superior to Heroes 3, even with the flaws that was with Heroes 5.
Case of point: Putting Dwarves and Elves in the same line-up seems like a no-go in any fantasy setting!
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What will happen now?
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2010 06:33 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Homm3 was perfect, homm5 could be perfect if it only had 2 race based creatures in each faction.
Well do realize that this is your oppinion, but not everybody might agree.
While I do agree that Heroes 3 was a great game, and gameplay-wise probably better than Heroes 5 (if for nothing else because H5 was so technically bugged down that you couldn't play large maps) - but when it comes to faction line-ups, I find Heroes 5 far superior to Heroes 3, even with the flaws that was with Heroes 5.
Case of point: Putting Dwarves and Elves in the same line-up seems like a no-go in any fantasy setting!
Having too many racial units in one faction is bad, and so is too little. I hope H6 will go on a COMPROMISE (about minimum 2 and maximum 4 racial creatures) with the rest of the factions (especially Dungeon - I beg for the Medusa, Beholder, and Harpy to come back )
Dwarves and Elves? Hey, what about Gimli and Legolas in Lord of the Rings, they fought alongside each other  I'm only joking
But actually, if no one likes the Dwarf town, I think they should appear in H6 in maybe...Academy?
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jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted November 28, 2010 06:42 PM |
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Edited by jabanoss at 18:45, 28 Nov 2010.
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Case of point: Putting Dwarves and Elves in the same line-up seems like a no-go in any fantasy setting!
This was one of the many reason I really liked the factions i H3. Most of the other fantasy we have, LotR or whatever Elves are always a single powerful faction and it is the same with dwarfs. I don't like that, I prefer how it was i H3 were they had more of a mix between races. I see no problem whatsoever that 2 diffrent races share the same faction quite the opposite. I personally like to see dwarfs a small race that more or less just "tag along" another bigger race such as the elves. Heroes 3 to me had a "fairy tale"-theme, which was really awesome and unique, H5 on other hand just has this modern/exploited fantasy feel to to it.
The race combinations i H3 was very nice, elves/dwarfs, troglodytes/minotaurs, gnolls/lizardmen and goblins/orcs all of them were great.
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I hope H6 will go on a COMPROMISE (about minimum 2 and maximum 4 racial creatures)
oh please no, 4 is way too much that is only acceptable for Haven :/
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 28, 2010 06:44 PM |
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But actually, if no one likes the Dwarf town, I think they should appear in H6 in maybe...Academy?
Oh, I loved the Dwarf town - there just were slightly too many Dwarves. I mean, the Shieldguard, the Brawler, and the Runepriest were perfect, the Spearwielder was ok too, I could even accept the Bear Rider as a concept, even if the conception was poor. But the Thane? Please, whoever came up with concept of a giant teleporting dwarf should have had the kick on the spot. And it was not like there weren't numerous other options (Thunderbird or Hill Giant to name some of the more obvious).
But I think versatility is good. I mean, they can have different kinds of towns:
- Race dominated (4-5 racial units) - e.g. Haven and Dwarf.
- Race centered (3-4 racial units) - e.g. Sylvan, Dark Elf, Naga/Lizardman, Orcs.
- Profession centered (1 master unit and thematic) - e.g. Academy (centered around the (Human?) Mage), Forge (centered around Gnome engineer)
- Thematic (all units common type) - e.g. Necropolis, Inferno.
Spicing things up like this makes for good variation.
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What will happen now?
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Maken
Known Hero
Hail Hydra!
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posted November 28, 2010 06:50 PM |
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To me they could make Dwarves of Might and Runes and it would be awesome. Just kidding.
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But actually, if no one likes the Dwarf town, I think they should appear in H6 in maybe...Academy?
No, please. They are supposed to be sturdy, strong, drunk and all the stereotype. Not some wizards servant.
I think, should they put dwarves and wizards again in the game, they should split unit types.
Dwarves are cool with they runes and giants, and they could get an animal (I like the bear idea) and constructs. It would be great to see dwarves not only as good architects and blacksmiths, but also master of the runic constructs.
And wizards should go more magical. Djinn, titan, magical creatures, elementals, beastmen (as it seems in the creature descriptions) and maybe even a mage knight or guardian. The closest the should get to constructs is an animated armor unit.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 28, 2010 07:16 PM |
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Well, they seem to go away from the racial themes. Personally, I think there should be 2-3 creatures of the main race but that depends on the faction. For instance, I could very well see a Sylvan with only an elven ranger and the explaination would be that they prefer to not directly go to war themselves but use the forces of nature instead.
In H6 Haven we only have 4 human creatures for once, which is great and I think that is a good number for a faction such as Haven.
The H5 Fortress was terrible because there was so much potential of introducing popular Norse mythology creatures instead of making 6 Dwarven creatures and yet another Dragon.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted November 28, 2010 07:18 PM |
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The Thane/Warlord/Flame Lord/Thunder Thane is not a big dwarf. The Thane/Warlord/Flame Lord/Thunder Thane is a giant. Just because it has a beard doesn't mean it is a dwarf. (Unless the lore states otherwise.)
The Fire Dragon/Magma Dragon/Lava Dragon has an excellent look, in my opinion.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 28, 2010 07:21 PM |
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The Thane/Warlord/Flame Lord/Thunder Thane is not a big dwarf. The Thane/Warlord/Flame Lord/Thunder Thane is a giant. Just because it has a beard doesn't mean it is a dwarf. (Unless the lore states otherwise.)
Yes, so I thought as well, problem is that the lore specifically mentions that the Thanes are a special clan among the Dwarfs that has special magical powers, or something like that - I don't remember the details, but it does state that this is a Dwarven clan. 
I do agree Magma Dragons were awesome, though.
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2010 08:46 PM |
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Case of point: Putting Dwarves and Elves in the same line-up seems like a no-go in any fantasy setting!
This was one of the many reason I really liked the factions i H3. Most of the other fantasy we have, LotR or whatever Elves are always a single powerful faction and it is the same with dwarfs. I don't like that, I prefer how it was i H3 were they had more of a mix between races. I see no problem whatsoever that 2 diffrent races share the same faction quite the opposite. I personally like to see dwarfs a small race that more or less just "tag along" another bigger race such as the elves. Heroes 3 to me had a "fairy tale"-theme, which was really awesome and unique, H5 on other hand just has this modern/exploited fantasy feel to to it.
The race combinations i H3 was very nice, elves/dwarfs, troglodytes/minotaurs, gnolls/lizardmen and goblins/orcs all of them were great.
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I hope H6 will go on a COMPROMISE (about minimum 2 and maximum 4 racial creatures)
oh please no, 4 is way too much that is only acceptable for Haven :/
Yes I also think 4 is too much, 3 should be maximum - I only said that so people wouldn't attack me that 3 is too little
@alcibiades by what I posted, I was talking about many people out there (I ALSO liked the Fortress faction ) If it had about 2 less dwarves it would be a great town (along with the nice theme, Runelore, heroes riding mammoths  )
My proposal for an improved lineup (I posted it in a different thread already, and it gets rid of Thane, Berserker, and Skirmisher):
CORE: Defender, Gog/Magog, Wolf
ELITE: Bear Rider (or even Bear on its own, as you like), Rune Priest, Efreet
CHAMPION: Magma Dragon (I really liked it)
In the other thread, someone said that Gog/Magog and Efreet don't fit there too well, but IMO they do with the Fortress being stationed atop a dormant volcano etc. also it maintains the balance as the replacements for Thane and Skirmisher are Flyer and Shooter respectively
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