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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Might vs Magic
Thread: Might vs Magic This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted November 27, 2010 03:53 PM

Might vs Magic

In this thread debate:

- which one is of your preference? which is more useful in early/late game? can might and magic heroes be equal along the entire game lifespan?
- how powerful should be destructive spells? how do they compare to raw attack & defence bonuses given from a might hero?
- how did it work in previous homm games and what did you like/didn't like about it?
- what actions should be taken to keep things balanced?

ready

steady

go!


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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 27, 2010 04:04 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 16:30, 27 Nov 2010.

Difficult topic. Not easy to balance might vs. magic. Of course Light/Dark Magic type spells works along with might and thus, like might, favored late game. On the other hand, direct damage and summoning spells favor early game, because in general Spellpower grows fast in early game when leveling up is fast but then tends to stagnate, whereas army power will grow slow in early game but then speed up and continue a linear growth during entire game.

One problem is the stagnation of Spell Power during game, which would be helped if some sort of late-game masterskill or effect to increase spellpower or spell effect; at the same time that would decrease early game effectivity of spells and prevent insane early magic rushes. One thing I would like to see is that Area Of Effect of "mass" spells scales during game (could scale with Knowledge), so that in early game you can't just "mass slow" all enemy units with your Might hero or low-level Magic hero.
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What will happen now?

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted November 27, 2010 04:12 PM

That is why H5 was so messed up. They had to come up with Empowered spells, MoTW and whatever, which were to recompense lack of spellpower in late game.

Speaking of magic damage formulae, I do hope the linear one makes a return for creeps. It was funny to see ~10 druids take out 1 Archangel and 100 take out three. Annoying and illogical.

Concerning heroes themselves, I haven't thought it over yet.


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jabanoss
jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted November 27, 2010 04:27 PM

I really hope they spice up the destructive magics this time.
First to make it balanced and second to make it interesting. for example there should be almost no spells that only deals damage, and more spells with special effects such as Deep Freeze, in that way they will have a lot easier balancing early/late game.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Maken
Maken


Known Hero
Hail Hydra!
posted November 27, 2010 04:55 PM

Magic is my preference. Well, I'm not sure which one is the best, but in late game, with the right skills and artifacts, both can be balanced. And as for balance along the entire game, I believe it can be done, its more about the potential (the power of mathematics) and a good strategy than luck. At least I hope so in H6.

One step that they have made is the addition of magic defense (or am I seeing things?).
I believe this stat changes the whole paradigm of magic damage, as the formulas now work with defense specific for this kind of attack. Again, with right mathematical balance and a lot of statistics, they can make it work.

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evinin
evinin


Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
posted November 27, 2010 05:09 PM
Edited by evinin at 17:11, 27 Nov 2010.

My choice - magic. Magic is useful in both early and late game. The heroes that rely only on might won't go far. But still...
In Heroes IV a might hero could be a real destroying fighting machine. In Heroes V might helps creatures, increases their stats. So I guess that a very balanced hero would do best.
Destructive spells should be really powerful, like they always were. For me things were balanced in the previous games. I miss the bigger role of the heroes in the IV part. After all the name of the game is "Heroes", so they should have more role.
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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted November 27, 2010 05:16 PM

Might and Magic need to be properly balanced, scaled with levels and gametime, and also equaly interesting for players to choose.
I H5 magic heroes were more interesting and complicated because they had to choose which spell to use and when, which school to choose and how to balance resourcess for the magic guild. Might heroes were pretty boring and passive. They just learn their passve abilities, make a few hits during battles and that's it.
In H6 I hope that Might and Magic heroes will be equaly busy, equaly powerful and equaly dependent on items and that it will be a dificult choice between them.
Things will be probably better now that you will be able to compleatly control you hero development.
As for the balance between schools, that also needs to be taken care of. Destructive magic musn't be more apealing then other kinds.
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 27, 2010 05:37 PM

Difficult subject. Magic has been my choice in 3 and 5, but since I have preferred magic all along I doubt I ever fully-explored the might-makes-right-side.

In H3 I usually had both Jeddite & Alamar w/ their skill resurrection+EarthMagic+artefacts and almost like clockwork would "outlast" the Might in battle, far more often than not. anyone remember that custom-map "Might and not Magic."? or something like that. That was a fun thing for 3DO to do, it forced me to go the other path and it was fun not thinking about spells for 'once', except when some hero cast one because they didn't edit it out.

In H5 I do the same with Light-magic and Resurrection but far more prefer the Necros+summoning+raise-dead+artefacts and create the same result; I usually outlast the might.  

In H3 Sir Mullich <sp.?> was my might choice. His speed+morale+luck+artefacts could get ahead of the spellcaster, killing more than could be brought back but it was easy to "not" get that entire combination. <IMO> Magic's powerful combinations are nearly default in both.
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Agent_00_BLeRD
Agent_00_BLeRD


Adventuring Hero
posted November 27, 2010 06:18 PM

Magic, definitely. And before H5, I never really used damage dealing spells much. It was all about introducing the right status effect, keeping the enemy from reaching my troops and pelting away with range attacks and introducing chaos in the enemy army with spells like berserk.
In H4, this was far more evident when all I would do would be to traverse the map with two GM archer heroes who had order and life magic. With properly used mass slow, displacement, teleport and lots of mana potions, nothing could come close enough to touch my heroes. One very funny battle involved teleporting a hero on top of the enemy's  tower and imagining their expressions as I rained death upon them. :-)

With creatures, this became even more amazing. Moving griffins on top of enemy towers and casting snake strike on them made mince meat of ANYTHING that wanted to attack them. Add vampiric aura (hard to get GM Death magic for nature, though) and they will take down an insane number of enemy troops. And best of all, use the faerie dragon to cast flame ring and you can score some serious burns.

Never found anything this enjoyable with purely might heroes/armies. A moderate army with low level spells is usually stronger and more versatile than a more powerful army with no spells.

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted November 27, 2010 09:54 PM
Edited by SwampLord at 21:55, 27 Nov 2010.

I prefer Might; I was a Tazar/Fortress player in HoMM III and I've favored might ever since. Watching magic blow up my creatures always frustrated me anyways. Fight like a man!
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted November 28, 2010 12:32 AM

I'm a (destructive) magic fan. Dungeon has always been my favorite faction due to that little fact.

In my opinion the best spell school system so far has been in HoMM IV.

I liked H5 too, but I found Destructive Magic's overall lack of versatility to be a big minus. Sure, it's called Destructive Magic for a reason, but then again, all other magic schools have direct damage spells too in addition to their usual repertoire.


That said, I'd really like to see some more active abilities for might heroes as well.

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Darmo
Darmo


Known Hero
True Gentleman
posted November 28, 2010 12:44 AM

Heroes 5
Dungeon magic can easily crush knight early game. but late game implosion can't handle throng of paladin, even with high sp.

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jabanoss
jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted November 28, 2010 01:08 AM

And that is why I preferred Dark magic, since it was a lot more fun to use since it had such variation. Puppet master/Frenzy is so freaking awesome and FUN! . together with other pretty nice debuffs, but otherwise I think that in H5 at least the Might heroes were a lot stronger then the magic ones in the late game.
I mean there were just no way a warlock could beat a Barbarian or Knight with equal numbers late game :/
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 28, 2010 01:30 AM

Personally, I think Might is really boring compared to Magic. The hero is just auto-hitting each turn.

I would like them to revamp Might to be something more similar to the Shouts the Orcs have in H5 and perhaps even creatures would gain extra abilities with a Might hero.

Might heroes should get their own abilities, similar to spells but less magical and not as complex as all the magic types.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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jabanoss
jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted November 28, 2010 01:36 AM
Edited by jabanoss at 01:39, 28 Nov 2010.

Quote:
perhaps even creatures would gain extra abilities with a Might hero.

This has my golden seal of approval

as long as it is balanced and still fun to play with a magic hero that is
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted November 28, 2010 03:45 AM

Quote:
Heroes 5
Dungeon magic can easily crush knight early game. but late game implosion can't handle throng of paladin, even with high sp.


Frenzy, on the other hand...

I honestly didn't ever find Might boring; at least in H3 you would always still be casting spells, even if they weren't balls-shatteringly destructive it was still something to do with your hero.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted November 28, 2010 10:23 AM

I was thinking about something similar to what Xerox said. A Might hero could have abilities such as these:

Helpful might abilities:

Offensive Command +attack
Defensive Command +defense
Inspiring Command +morale
Entertaining Command +luck
Encouraging Command +initiative
Advising Command +hit points
Spiritual Command +mana points
Accelerating Command +speed
Preserving Command +shot number
Empowering Command +damage

Harmful might abilities:

Intimidating Shout -attack
Frightening Shout -defense
Demeaning Shout -morale
Insulting Shout -luck
Discouraging Shout -initiative
Disabling Shout -hit points
Interrupting Shout -mana points
Decelerating Shout -speed
Wasting Shout -shot number
Ridiculing Shout -damage
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted November 28, 2010 09:55 PM

Now, what do you guys think of magic heroes in might factions and vice versa (h3 examples: cleric, planeswalker)? Or there shouldn't be a clear division between might and magic factions?

Do you think that a healthy balance between M&M is the key to success or rather misdirected approach which doesn't allow you to use certain faction's full potential?
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 28, 2010 10:08 PM

I defintely think each faction should have both a Might and Magic hero.

in H3, it annoyed me that some factions only had up to Mage Guild 3 and I didnt really see the point in that


____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted November 28, 2010 10:25 PM

Speaking about Clerics, I wonder how they will make them appealing. I mean, basically, the only benefit of choosing the latter one would be more mana since both the Paladin and the Cleric (or whoever it'd be) in theory use the same magic school, which is Light. Spellpower doesn't count much when it comes to blessings. So if there was such setup I'd go for the might hero most of time.
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