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| Thread: Free will vs 'Fate' |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Fauch
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posted December 09, 2010 05:49 PM |
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You seem to think that you can just make statments and they should be considered facts but that is not the way things work, unless you are talking to your small child.
so we are your small children? 
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markkur
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posted December 09, 2010 05:50 PM |
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... because it's YOU, who must simply pick between an all-knowing God like YOU understand him and all-knowingness OR free will.
JJ, I just don't get this. Why the black and white "pick'? I guess I'm never going to "get this"
If God is and he knows everything or say You and you know everything, what does "you knowing everything have to do with my free-will"? I am still operating independently for your vast knowledge Sorry, it kinda gotme, allofasudden like
Hopefully you can yet...laugh.
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Fauch
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posted December 09, 2010 05:54 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:55, 09 Dec 2010.
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Matrix comes to mind, when you see they are able to foresee all the possible fates for Neo. but then, they live in a computer world, so if everything is programmed, and Neo himself is, then everything can be determined. Neo seem to indeed have free will, but the choices might be limited by the Matrix so that everything stay under control.
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markkur
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posted December 09, 2010 06:02 PM |
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Quote:
Matrix comes to mind, when you see they are able to foresee all the possible fates for Neo. but then, they live in a computer world, so if everything is programmed, and Neo himself is, then everything can be determined. Neo seem to indeed have free will, but the choices might be limited by the Matrix so that everything stay under control.
Apologies if this was directed elsewhere.
I guess my view on life on this planet is quite different than many other folks. I sorta see we are all sortof "playing in the backyard".
Freedom to do whatever "within limits". These limitations come from daddy, mommy, the neighbors and the neighbors dog when he has big teeth and can out run me and I have yet to explore fire-arms.
Anyway, you get the idea.Well maybe not all of it. I'm making a tree-house and my pesky brother keeps telling me I don't know what I'm doing.
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Fauch
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posted December 09, 2010 06:23 PM |
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it's like free will in totalitarianism.
you can do what you want, but there are only a few choices that will not lead you to your death.
I guess it's the closer from determinism we can get now. limiting choices to a minimum.
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markkur
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posted December 09, 2010 06:26 PM |
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it's like free will in totalitarianism.
That makes me think on my "freedom" living in the U.S.. I'm "free" up to a point and that point moves in a little closer from time to time.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 09, 2010 06:47 PM |
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Markkur, what is so difficult to see?
If God knows the future, there is only ONE future, and that's the one god sees.
That means, for example, that your day of death is determined since the dawn of creation. No matter what you do, whatever you decide, everything is already written in stone. If God knows that you will crash your car one lousy rainy day and die 2 hours later without ever regaining consciousness, you don't have the slightest chance to avoid that "fate". God knows it - so it will happen. The trouble is - he knows it before you were even born.
That is, what determinism means - your fate is already determined. You may not know it, and you may not know your fate, but everything you do, everything that happens, all this is already written in the big book of God's mind.
Free Will is basically defined so that this is not the case. That when you are born, ALOT of things are possible, not because you are ignorant of your fate, but because IT IS NOT YET DETERMINED.
That's like determination of quantum state. Seeing or knowing it is determining it, if error is impossible - and with god error should be assumed to be impossible.
It's simply that the act of God seeing all times and everything determines it.
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Elodin
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posted December 09, 2010 08:35 PM |
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The dilemma has a very simple solution. God may know all possible futures, but "free will" and a couple of other things make sure that not even he can know the definite future. Everything else makes no sense at all and leads to contradictions - but since that's not bothering you in the least, I don't see any reason to continue this.
YOU decide.
God knows what you are going to decide.
What is so hard to grasp? You are the one with the steering wheel. You are the one determining your destiny.
The opposite of free will is someone or someone else being in control of your decisions. That is simply not the case. You are the one in control of your life. The fact that God knows every idiotic decision you will ever make and every good decision you will ever make does not change that.
There is absolutely no contradiction in God knowing and you choosing.
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markkur
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posted December 09, 2010 08:44 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 20:48, 09 Dec 2010.
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Quote:
Markkur, what is so difficult to see?
If God knows the future, there is only ONE future, and that's the one god sees.
That means, for example, that your day of death is determined since the dawn of creation. No matter what you do, whatever you decide, everything is already written in stone. If God knows that you will crash your car one lousy rainy day and die 2 hours later without ever regaining consciousness, you don't have the slightest chance to avoid that "fate". God knows it - so it will happen. The trouble is - he knows it before you were even born.
That is, what determinism means - your fate is already determined. You may not know it, and you may not know your fate, but everything you do, everything that happens, all this is already written in the big book of God's mind.
Free Will is basically defined so that this is not the case. That when you are born, ALOT of things are possible, not because you are ignorant of your fate, but because IT IS NOT YET DETERMINED.
JJ I see what you are saying and agree with a lot of it except for what "Free-will" means. Ever heard of "ignorance is bliss? I know you have, that was silly but anyway. Ignorance is neutral to bliss right? Not knowing something is hot will get you burned. But IF not knowing that it is hot matters nothing to the path in life you are on, you're happier not dwelling on what Heat is and burn-treatments are etc.
Really that 'problematic apple in the garden' is still very applicable to todays life. It must be my age, but not only do I not care to learn all there is to learn, I also realize that what that really means is limited and changing all the time and I just want to "do the best I can in a laid back way, on this narrow path of mine. Because I don't have God's view and frankly I'm glad I do not. Jesus said "come to me as little children" and <IMO> I think that is a heart-set far more than a mind-set. You know what I mean. Still teachable and all that, but really more just awe-struck with life. While becoming a man. I 'freely put on a lot of magic robes' that made me a man in some way. But they ended up just being magic robes made my other men. I know I sound nutz, but I'm not. Content with being "dust in the wind" and knowing I don;t have all the answers...most likely. However all of this has been my "freedom to choose in real-time" and to me regardless of God knowing it. etc. it is still real-life to be lived because "I" don't know my ending.
I might be going crazy but I think it is in a good way<goodness>
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Keksimaton
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posted December 09, 2010 09:37 PM |
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I shall now present to you an argument that's relevant to the discussion, but hasn't brought up very clearly.
1) With the knowledge of initial positions for every item in nature, the forces affecting them and the laws of nature, it would be possible for a powerful intelligence to calculate everything that would happen. (Causal determinism, Laplace's demon)
2) God is all knowing, all powerful and created the world. In creating the world he decided on the laws of nature, the initial positions of objects and the forces affecting them.
Therefore:
3) God decided on everything that would happen.
I haven't formed arguments like this before, but I think it should be logically sound in that the deduction rises directly from the premises... Or something... Logics course hasn't started yet...
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JollyJoker
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posted December 09, 2010 10:08 PM |
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However, we know that 1) is wrong.
The interesting thing is, that if you assume there IS a god, and if you assume God created the stuff that is, then you can safely conclude that God made damn sure he couldn't do 3).
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markkur
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posted December 09, 2010 10:25 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 22:26, 09 Dec 2010.
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Years ago a bunch of folks got together and made the world of HOMM for us to walk around in. In keeping with that tradition, right now I am trying to make another world for someone else to walk around in....and have it be fun
I'm just curious. Does anyone that posts in the OSM...still make maps?
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Doomforge
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posted December 09, 2010 10:42 PM |
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Angelito was a map maker, wasn't he?
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2010 10:43 AM |
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Quote:
YOU decide.
God knows what you are going to decide.
Let's try the other way round. HOW does god know what I'm going to decide? And don't come up with "he's all-knowing, so he just knows". HOW does God know in the moment he has finished his creation, for example, that 30 years ago a certain idiot would go ahead and shoot a human named John Lennon?
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Doomforge
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posted December 10, 2010 11:18 AM |
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You may also consider God existing outside time, and "foreseeing" dilemmas are made unimportant.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2010 12:04 PM |
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Not at all.
"Knowledge" is based on "information". How is the information about these things in my future available for God?
"Out of time" would mean, there IS a point of view somewhere, sometime, out of place, out of time - God's point ov view - outside of everything in connection with our universe, where all information is available.
At this stage - again - we are at a movie. The universe would be a RECORD, because from God's point of view, every information was available, like for us with a recorded movie.
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baklava
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posted December 10, 2010 12:15 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:16, 10 Dec 2010.
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Food for thought.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elodin
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posted December 10, 2010 01:50 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
YOU decide.
God knows what you are going to decide.
Let's try the other way round. HOW does god know what I'm going to decide? And don't come up with "he's all-knowing, so he just knows". HOW does God know in the moment he has finished his creation, for example, that 30 years ago a certain idiot would go ahead and shoot a human named John Lennon?
The Bible does not explain how he knows, but here are some facts for you to ponder.
Time has no bearing on God. None. Zilch. It would be rather silly to think that the God who created the space time continuim is limited by it. God transcends his creation.
God is present everywhere throughout the space-time continuim and beyond. He sees all and knows all.
Quote:
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
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Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2010 02:51 PM |
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TIME is not what matters here.
It's the, umm, recognition of INFORMATION.
While GOD may be outside of everything, the INFORMATION about everything happening in OUR universe, after the laws of that universe, must be available for God. There cannot be information recognized of something that isn't there.
For God, therefore, the information must be available, and the information can only be available, when all the universe at all times is available for God.
That means only, our universe exisis indeed like a movie for god, that God can review the way he liked.
If you think about it you will find that this is an accurate picture, since if you consider the relationship between a movie and the viewer, it's comnparable.
Besides, the theory of the multiverse, where each and every possible universe exists - as opposed to one - would contradict the ONE-MOVIE-Universe stuff as well.
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markkur
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posted December 10, 2010 03:54 PM |
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@Bak
"So in summary, the universe we see is just a fragment nested in a timeless (everything) whole, rather than a single material world magically arisen above some primordial nothing."
 For the record: "I've mentally-blocked any presented argument that I found undesirable" to finally land at this Gem-stone of thought.
@All
Ever thought about the seeming rule of "Threes"? Father-Son-Spirit, Space-Time-Matter, Past-Present-Future. Heart-Mind-Soul, Positive, Negative and Neutral. And by far the most important in this thread Up,down and all-around
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