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| Thread: Free will vs 'Fate' |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mvassilev
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posted December 11, 2010 08:46 PM |
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No, but that doesn't mean she didn't have the choice not to do it. It depends on how you define free will. If you don't prevent her from choosing otherwise, then she has the free will to do so, even if she doesn't.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2010 08:49 PM |
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Dear me. That's appalling.
Suppose you know your wife is going to die of murder this morning. Of course she has the free will not to do so, if you don't prevent her from doing otherwise.
Don't you think it's more a question of defining knowledge? I mean, we are not talking about guessing here.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 11, 2010 08:56 PM |
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Thus, illusion.
It's like presenting you two spoons and saying grab one while the other is just a mirage.
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Corribus
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posted December 11, 2010 09:28 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 21:32, 11 Dec 2010.
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@mvass
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Knowledge is not causation.
I never said any such thing. Watch your Strawmen.
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Suppose you know your wife is going to brush her teeth this morning. She still has free will not to do so.
Then you didn't know she was going to brush her teeth. You only predicted or believed that she would - based on past empirical observation. That's a big difference. In point of fact, the future is unknowable. At least to us mere mortals.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
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posted December 11, 2010 09:38 PM |
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If knowledge is not causation, then there is no way in which that interferes with free will. If you can choose whatever you want, and what happens is what you choose, then you have free will, regardless of the results of your choice being predetermined. If someone held a gun to your head, then you wouldn't have free will, but otherwise, you do. It's about the individual agent being able to choose, not about how that choice happens in a physical sense.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2010 09:45 PM |
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Mv, if I know that you will go to school on Monday, you don't have any option anymore. You WILL go to school. After all I know it.
If there was any chance you could not go to school, I WOULDN'T know it. After all you COULD not go to school.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted December 11, 2010 10:00 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 22:18, 11 Dec 2010.
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Don't you think it's more a question of defining knowledge? I mean, we are not talking about guessing here.
 <IMO> You hit the nail on the head but didn't drive it home With that said; I'm sure I won't either.
Here's the deal; the way I see it. What I think I see, If I'm not wrong is that the God, Supreme Intelligence, etc. see's Mytical's 2 plates but we do not. <IMO> When "fate" gets used in that manner, than the user is assuming God-like knowledge/power as if they are living a life, where all things on their path in life are visble to them...but they are not. Furthermore, I have no doubt at times; that I am not even always seeing both plates at the same time. So there is no option to 'pick' at all in some circumstances in life. As far as God's side of this; he's alone over there and as MSS said he's not bound by time like we are.
@all
I see this no different than when I pick up and read a history book. We read all the events of a given life and do see the 'fate' of the subject, (as defined by the end and not a pre-determined path) where the mixture of free-will choices made by them, those made by others, life events that were not anyone's choice...including Gods. <imo> He set a world in motion for US and it has it's own rules to some degree, I.e gravity, what man does to the planet and how it affects the chemistry of life on earth etc. We can also toss into this mix; truly unknown things like i.e. the "Phoenix Lights" of which we may not yet have a clue about. But if God IS, he's not ignorant of outside forces either. Had to spice it up a bit
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mvassilev
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posted December 11, 2010 10:05 PM |
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JJ:
As I said, it depends on how you define free will. If I sit down and think about it, I will either decide to go to school or not. And then I'll do what I decided. You happen to know what I'll decide, but that doesn't mean that I won't do what I decided, which is what free will really means - the ability to choose what you're going to do and then do it.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2010 10:10 PM |
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You happen to know what I'll decide,
Impossible. And nonsensical.
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Elodin
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posted December 11, 2010 10:15 PM |
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Quote:
I'll echo JJ and say that Elodin's argument violates its own premise. That's so obvious that I can't believe we are even discussing it. In fact, his posts almost cause me to laugh.
As usual, your posts are quite hilariously illogical. Knowledge can't be a causal agent.
God knowing what your decision will be has not the slightest influence on you making the decision because knowledge is not causation.
Say "Nuh-uh, God can't know the future because I say so!" (the basic argument anti-theists use on all issues) all you want but you reallly can't say tht knowledge causes an event with any sort of logic.
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If I am given a choice between taking the red pill and the blue pill, and someone with a crystal ball (anyone) knows with certainty that I will pick the blue pill, then the future is determined and I really have no choice at all - I will take the blue pill because that's what the crystal balls says I will do. Consider: if indeed I have a choice, then it is possible that I will choose the red pill instead. But if I choose the red pill, then the crystal ball is broken and thus the fortune teller is a charlatan. You can't have it both ways: foreknowledge and free choice are incompatible.
No,silly. If crystal balls worked you would be taking the blue pill because you chose to. The crystal ball would merely be reflecting your choice. It would show your choice of the blue pill, it would not be making you take the blue pill.
Again, knowledge/foreknowledge IS NOT causation. You have the freedom to act regardless of who knows what about what you are going to do.
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Corribus
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posted December 12, 2010 12:12 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:13, 12 Dec 2010.
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If knowledge is not causation, then there is no way in which that interferes with free will.
One thing has nothing to do with the other, and again, I said nothing about knowledge causing anything. Stop putting words into my mouth. One more time: Watch your Strawmen.
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Impossible. And nonsensical.
Indeed - how can one have a meaningful conversation centered around a definition based on an illogical premise.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
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posted December 12, 2010 12:32 AM |
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My point is that regardless of whether you know what I'll choose, if I don't know what I'm going to choose (or have the opportunity to choose not to do something), and then I do what I chose, then I have free will. (Of course, in reality, it is impossible for you or anyone to know what I'll choose, but I assume this is a thought experiment in which you are able to do so.) There are plenty of things I can do that I will never do. Does that mean I can't do them? No, of course not.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 12, 2010 12:42 AM |
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But because you will only choose that what we know your free will is just an illusion. There was never any option for choosing otherwise, you just thought there was.
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Keksimaton
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posted December 12, 2010 12:46 AM |
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@Mvass: Why do you not do the things that you'll never do? Is it because you do not will it? If so, why not?
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del_diablo
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posted December 12, 2010 01:05 AM |
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Quote:
But because you will only choose that what we know your free will is just an illusion. There was never any option for choosing otherwise, you just thought there was.
Perhaps, but since we can't observe ourself from a multidimensional view, I assume we can default it to we have a choice.
If there is a god like the abrahamic branches describe it, it is a multidimensional comsmic horror beyond whatever we and most likely even higher beings will be able to image. For it sees everything and is outside of time, yet can intervene with something that does not exist for it.
Does that flying unicorn exist? I could care less.
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mvassilev
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posted December 12, 2010 01:21 AM |
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Joonas:
That's irrelevant because I did choose and did what I chose to do. It's functionally the same thing.
Keksi:
That depends on the particular situation.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 12, 2010 01:24 AM |
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If were speaking functionally it doesn't matter if there's fate or free will. It's just the same as long as we don't live our life multiple times. It won't change our life in any way.
That's why were speaking theoretically. (Is that even a word?)
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Keksimaton
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posted December 12, 2010 01:36 AM |
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So, it's free will as long as you retain a sense of individuality in decision making?
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markkur
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posted December 12, 2010 06:23 AM |
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Anyone want a good laugh? How many words would you guess we have (total) in this thread, to be pretty much where we started?
Yeah, Mr Prez? About those big problems you have running the country and all.? Well, have you heard about those thinkers over at HC?
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mvassilev
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posted December 12, 2010 06:38 AM |
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If were speaking functionally it doesn't matter if there's fate or free will.
That's not quite true. If we completely disregard the decision-making process and not treat it as free will, then the responsibility of moral agents would be called into question.
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So, it's free will as long as you retain a sense of individuality in decision making?
I'm not sure what you mean by "sense of individuality".
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