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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Management - a part of Heroes
Thread: Management - a part of Heroes This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 21, 2011 03:11 PM

Quote:
Starcraft is more of a clickfest than a strategy game. The best player is the one who clicks the fastest, not the best tactician.


Clicking is an action resulting from thinking what to do next.
The best player is the one who thinks the fastest.

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted September 21, 2011 03:36 PM

Thanks for the positive feedback! I also think Markkur touched on something very important:
Quote:
Of course over a long game, going to get your 500 gold or 5 gems each week will seem a boring repetition, however; "early game it was not". When you have one town and are trying to get rolling; that 5 gems could be a big deal on a singel-given-turn.
[snip]
<imo> What would be good to see happen in any future HoMM game would be a management system that evolves over the course of the game. Neutral-battles are another good candidate for this sort of critical thinking.

I think this was an excellent point, and something that would actually solve many of the issues, without over simplifying. I can't think of any way to practically implement the idea right now, but perhaps with some consideration really good ideas could arise.

One way would be to put in an automatically creature buy requests. For instance set up in a specific town that on the first day of the week a given number of creatures are bought, and on the second day and so on. And on the beginning of the day you can click the "approve transactions" button (that will be implemented). You would still have to think, plan and so on, but you wouldn't have to click 15 places each day to do the same thing. It's expanding upon the "buy all creatures" button that was implemented in H5 (or was it H4, I never played that game very much).

I don't know, that's the best I came up with at the moment. It plays out a little different with the shared creature pool though.

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 21, 2011 04:54 PM

No, fast clicking doesn't require thought. Fast clicking can be conditioned, a reflex. That's the whole point of practicing a build order; once you do it 10 times you stop thinking and do it mechanically. The point is to stop thinking about it, just do it.

Starcraft is not a strategy game, it's a tactics game at best. Small scale, fast movement. Execution is most important, counters are known. It's easy to lose not because you don't know the proper counter, but because you don't execute it fluently enough. Starcraft is more like playing an instrument.

And RTS games are popular mostly not because they require some mythical fast thinking. They simply allow better visual effects, animations, explosions, exciting cinematic experience.

And Chess being a great game ? A lot of people don't like Chess. A lot of people prefer other games. This makes Chess a bad game in eyes of many people.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 21, 2011 05:00 PM

Said people suck, in all fairness. Besides individual taste does not mean good or bad game. Fun or not, that is another tale.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 21, 2011 05:13 PM

Chess is a great game, even if I personally don't like it.
/derail

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 21, 2011 05:20 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 17:21, 21 Sep 2011.

Who gets to decide who sucks ? A majority vote determines whether Chess is a good or bad game ? For many people it's a boring, repetitive game, that's enough. In any case, that's attacking people, not the argument. Chess is neither great or very poor, it's just right for some people. For some values of x, Chess is a good game...

Starcraft is a glorified game of Tag. Go watch some high level play streams, replays. They try to spend as little time watching bases as possible, because each second their army could be ambushed (thanks to fast unit speed and low vision range). And a few seconds without concentration can cost you an army, or your worker line.
No, what matters in starcraft II is back&forth game of tag with two blobs called armies, with units arriving periodically from bases via hotkeys.

They've improved pathfinding in SC2. This has changed balance, but more importantly it made apparent how little positioning, flanking and similar tactics matter in the game. A "ball" is a common word to refer to an army in SC2. Formation doesn't matter 90% of the time, sometimes you just have to make it a bit looser to avoid area damage but that's it. They've even reduced area weapons, notably PSI Storm, because they were too effective at killing the only practical formation.

If SC2 is a strategy game, it's a funny strategy game. Like this:
http://www.kongregate.com/games/IcyLime/multitask it's a "strategy" game better played with several people. If I could have several extra people to control my units, I would be able to attack and expand more effectively. Not because we would come up with more/better ideas, but because execution speed means so much. Harass several bases at once.

Back to Chess. Would Chess be better played with several people on each side ? How about Hannibal ? Napoleon ? Replace them with several people.
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Evilsausage
Evilsausage


Hired Hero
posted September 21, 2011 06:03 PM
Edited by Evilsausage at 18:06, 21 Sep 2011.

To me Starcraft 1 and 2 is just a outdated RTS. It worked well back in 1998 but not today.
After playing games like CoH and Men of war that has so much more intressting combat and tactics, SC2 just feels silly.
Only reason SC 2 is getting so much publicity is because its made by blizzard.


As for the original post yes i fully agree. Overall i think most of the new features have been rather bad. Or the lack of new features. Because truth is H6 haven't really brough much new to the table.
Heroes 5 with its expansions are still more enjoying then h6 in my eyes.
It just feels like it has more to offer.
____________

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 21, 2011 06:18 PM

And Heroes 5 without expansions...?

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted September 21, 2011 06:37 PM
Edited by MrDragon at 18:41, 21 Sep 2011.

-snip- SCII fanboy stuff I decided to remove because I'm not helping anybody here -

BUT we're not here to praise or demonize Starcraft II, some will hate it, some will love it (I'm in the later catagory).

Comparing HoMMVI to SCII won't go far, I could argue on what I think SCII does great, but aside from my opening*.. I'm not.


I agree with the OP on every point except maybe the resource one.
In my experience I've found HoMMVI's crystal resource surprisingly choice inducing, many times now I've had to ask myself:
"Which building will I buy now?" because it will take me several turns before I have luxury of enough crystal for another building, while in HoMMIII and V, if I just capped my mines on time and creeped in the early I'd rarely have to plan and wait. (which might be more to do with the scarcity of the advanced resource rather then the number of different ones actually)

But I do think town management is still lacking, I miss Mage Guilds (more then I thought I would) and I think we could do with more faction unique structures... or just different ones.. many I'm not tempted to buy in the early game like in HoMMIII or HoMMV, it's more like I'm saving them for later when "I don't have anything important to do with my Crystal anymore" WHICH IS A BAD THOUGHT, it's an indication that something went wrong there.

Now that I've played the Beta I'm even on the fence about the skill tree... a lot of skills just aren't exciting choices, even a lot of spells feel... neutered. (wait that's a different topic)

I think this topic hits the nail in the head for me.
I think the battles are great, possibly better then ever but the adventure map exploration, town management and heroes seem to have all lost something.
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Citadel: 7/7 creatures, 2/2 hero base classes. (complete, for now)

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 21, 2011 06:59 PM

Quote:
Who gets to decide who sucks ? A majority vote determines whether Chess is a good or bad game ? For many people it's a boring, repetitive game, that's enough. In any case, that's attacking people, not the argument. Chess is neither great or very poor, it's just right for some people. For some values of x, Chess is a good game...
You can define a set of objective parameters for what makes a good [succesfull] game. Like: A good game should appeal to a large number of people, should retain its appeal over a long time as well as over a large number of replays - to give some examples. I think chess is inarguably a good game, even though I don't particularly care for it.
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What will happen now?

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 21, 2011 07:04 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Of course over a long game, going to get your 500 gold or 5 gems each week will seem a boring repetition, however; "early game it was not". When you have one town and are trying to get rolling; that 5 gems could be a big deal on a singel-given-turn.
[snip]
<imo> What would be good to see happen in any future HoMM game would be a management system that evolves over the course of the game. Neutral-battles are another good candidate for this sort of critical thinking.

I think this was an excellent point, and something that would actually solve many of the issues, without over simplifying. I can't think of any way to practically implement the idea right now, but perhaps with some consideration really good ideas could arise.

I also noticed Markur's remark, but frankly didn't quite understand his point: Yes, in early game, those 5 Gems make a big impact, but that will not change if the structure is flaggable, no? If he means the thrill of collecting them he has a point, that would go away when structure becomes flaggable - but I wouldn't really mind that, arguably I find the task of having a secondary hero running around past all Windmills, Watermills, etc. more annoying than the thrill the gain gives me.
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What will happen now?

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted September 21, 2011 10:58 PM

What I understood is that micro management is an evolving concept, not constant throughout the game. When you have few heroes in the beginning you won't mind visiting certain buildings weekly, and you look forward to every new unit you can recruit in your town. But when you have 3 towns and 5 heroes visiting all the buildings and recruiting creatures every week is more time consuming than fun. The best thing would be that certain tasks could be "programmed" our automated as your kingdom expands.

Let me take an example from Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, the game that sort of inspired this thread. In the beginning of the game you have to make all the assassinations yourself. It's fun to begin with, but after a while it's not that challenging (especially the small, but necessary missions) and could quickly become boring (that has been one of the problems of the earlier games). What they did in this installment was that when you progress you can recruit other assassins that you can send on missions or call when you need them. You still plan the attack, you are still the "mastermind", but you don't have to do all the "dirty work" (aka micro management) yourself.

As I said, I don't really know how to implement the idea in heroes. The best I could come up with was the creature recruit example. I don't know if I've made my point any clearer

I just recalled something that was mentioned in another thread on this forum. I think it might be Infinitus that suggested it. It was a way to speed up creeping; being able to set certain rules in auto combat. For instance all creatures defend except shooters, or similar rules. I think that's in the same line of thinking.

Am I making any sense?

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 22, 2011 07:52 AM

Heroes II maps often have locations like Mystic Garden (500 gold or 5 gems) in contested areas. Then it's not pointless, players fight over them. Only some creatures have dwellings, so that is not a problem.
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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted September 22, 2011 07:55 AM

Quote:
I just recalled something that was mentioned in another thread on this forum. I think it might be Infinitus that suggested it. It was a way to speed up creeping; being able to set certain rules in auto combat. For instance all creatures defend except shooters, or similar rules. I think that's in the same line of thinking.

Am I making any sense?


Yes, you're making sense and auto combat seems cool but not sure if I like this because:

1) it shifts the focus away from those chess-like battles we love about Heroes
2) if the battle you're about to go into are trivial and pointless, just collect tear points instead of fighting fo blood points

I suppose though quick combat could have added check boxes for:

a) use shooters only, defend others
b) don't use mana to cast spells, but rather hero attack

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 22, 2011 05:58 PM

Quote:
What I understood is that micro management is an evolving concept, not constant throughout the game.


That is exactly what I meant.

I'll give an example for clarity,

The game is 3 turns old your Hero is a level 2

versus

The game is 3 months old and your Hero is a level 15

Decisions/Experiences really need to evolve. I can think of ways that are more creative than armies just growing in number but I think I will hang onto them for another project.

and...<imvho>Chess rocks!, its just that HoMM is like turbocharged-chess

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 23, 2011 06:50 PM

I'm not sure I agree with you, actually. Defeating the neutrals and capturing the site is exciting. Having to use time to have a secondary hero visit the same site all the following weeks are not, that's just trivial.
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What will happen now?

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 23, 2011 07:26 PM

that's why there are caravans?

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 23, 2011 10:00 PM

Quote:
that's why there are caravans?
Not for ressource sites, but obviously I think those should be flaggable. But I think the discussion went not so much on how to prevent micromanagement as to where the line between (good) management and (bad) micromanagement is.
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What will happen now?

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 23, 2011 11:08 PM
Edited by Nelgirith at 23:10, 23 Sep 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
that's why there are caravans?
Not for ressource sites, but obviously I think those should be flaggable. But I think the discussion went not so much on how to prevent micromanagement as to where the line between (good) management and (bad) micromanagement is.

Well, bad micromanagement is something that feels dull and repetitive but that is also mandatory most of the times

Example of bad "micromanagement" to me are :
- As you suggested, in previous any non-H4 HoMM, having to visit weekly resource buildings (while it's ok in the start, it becomes more of a chore than anything fun and even tends to be neglected after a few weeks),
- In H6, having to reposition your army on the battlefield every freaking battle ... (major fail)
- Having to move your army stack by stack from a garrison to your hero (I still don't get how they could miss that one ... seriously)

Basically, bad micromanagement could be defined as "useless mouse-clicks that bring absolutely nothing interesting/fun/useful to the game".

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leonhart
leonhart


Hired Hero
posted September 24, 2011 02:35 AM

I don't mind always rearranging units cause I usually need to do it anyway due to different battlefields and enemies. But it would still be nice feature to have.

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