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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Management - a part of Heroes
Thread: Management - a part of Heroes This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 22, 2011 12:29 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 16:26, 22 Oct 2011.

Quote:
Management is planning how to deploy your troops and how to spend your ressources and is good. I agree that the ressourcesystem has killed much of the - good - management of the game.



I don't agree with this. It might look like this on the first glance but when you think about it more it has added more strategy. Why?

a) Since all  your building require blood crystals now and you have very limited access to them you have to choose which building you need more and which you build later(never) as the maps are not that big in h6 and you will fight your opponent way way before you max your cities.

b) Since all players require the same resources they will fight for it, whereas if they didn't need the same stuff, they have 1 incentive to fight less.


I dont understand people saying the game is oversimplified. Its totally not true. Taking out micromanagenment is awesome thing. Who cares it doesnt look real that creatures arent recruited in different towns? Not me, i am all about gameplay. Besides, this is a fantasy game lol , get some imagination man.

Im starting to think that all the people that complain are the single player players. I think they complain because there is not as much to do anymore since they cut down to half what they had to do before. So now they complain the game boooring, because you dont need to transport troops, get all the different mines, chase your opponent with almost no troops stealing your mines all over the map etc. Maybe from that perspective it might be boring for you, that is if those activities were fun for you to start with(lol). I have played homm series since h1 and i have NEVER finished campain in ANY part of heroes. I played couple missions to get the idea about the part and i jumped straight to multiplayer. For me those changes are awesome because from my point of view they add NOTHING and they waste so much time. Point of homm for me is to fight your opponent and develope your economy and heroes. Its all there with less boring, repetitive, time consuming stuff.

Quote:
The shared pool is another simplification, leading to the reduction of strategic choices. There's no need to defend far-away towns as long as there are no two-way portals nearby.


What choices you are talking about? sitting with your army in the town 24/7? Is this supposed to be fun? Not true, shared pool made it unnecessary for players to chain troops, which all good players did.

Quote:
Don't you feel the creatures are less diverse than before? All factions may be played almost in the same way.


Did you check the fan manual? count how many different abilities creatures have. No they don't feel the same. I agree that towns in h5 were more different from one another but it was not due to the creatures. It was about the game design and hero statistics that require you to play a town in a certain way. (warlock good at destructive magic with low def which made it good rushing castle and quite weak late game with lack of defense stat etc...)



Quote:
Instant travel kills this emotional anxiey, 'Haven't I travelled too far from my castle?', 'Is my garrison/secondary hero strong enough to defend it?'


Building level 2 of town portal requires you to spend 7500 gold and 15 crystals (and maybe some others) They are not cheap as its near the cost of legendary building. So if you want your safety net , it doesnt come cheap. What it is if not strategy? Instant travel makes this part very good as you can defend your kingdom more easily. It was always the problem in previous parts.

Quote:
Also, faction special abilities imo are another step back from HoMM5


If a feature that provides more distinction between castles you call step back then i have no no further comments... (In h5 it was merely another passive hero skill, just like there are now for every hero in the game)


Quote:
But I think they've tried to address too many of them at the same time, and thereby creating more problems than they actually fixed.


I can't think of a a single problem those changes created. So i really dont know what problemS you are talking about.(other than making game less random might mean more repetitive in time , but it might not be a problem if you think about the chess). I can understand problem of some players being "but its different then other parts, i want it to be the same and its not thus it is bad". Those kind of problems i can understand and i think these are not real arguments.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 23, 2011 01:44 AM
Edited by MattII at 01:50, 23 Oct 2011.

Quote:
a) Since all  your building require blood crystals now and you have very limited access to them you have to choose which building you need more and which you build later(never) as the maps are not that big in h6 and you will fight your opponent way way before you max your cities.
This is not an improvement in strategy, because you got the same in the previous game, with the added complexity of deciding wheth the convert sulfur into crystal, or leave it as sulfur for later.

Quote:
b) Since all players require the same resources they will fight for it, whereas if they didn't need the same stuff, they have 1 incentive to fight less.
Strategy is more than just fighting. Now you can't beat the enemy economically, only in battle.

Quote:
I dont understand people saying the game is oversimplified. Its totally not true.
Town portals, town conversion, area grabbing mines, and dropping 3 resources don't count as over-simplification?

Quote:
Im starting to think that all the people that complain are the single player players.
Who are far more numerous I suspect than multi-player gamers.

Quote:
I have played homm series since h1 and i have NEVER finished campain in ANY part of heroes. I played couple missions to get the idea about the part and i jumped straight to multiplayer.
Just goes to show.

Quote:
For me those changes are awesome because from my point of view they add NOTHING and they waste so much time. Point of homm for me is to fight your opponent and develope your economy and heroes.
Sounds like Kings Bounty is more in your line of play.

Quote:
What choices you are talking about? sitting with your army in the town 24/7? Is this supposed to be fun? Not true, shared pool made it unnecessary for players to chain troops, which all good players did.
Chaining is a matter of strategy, where do I send my troops for best effect:
Do I send them to that border town there, or reinforce this hero here, or do I recruit another hero to take them as a mobile reserve?

Quote:
Instant travel makes this part very good as you can defend your kingdom more easily. It was always the problem in previous parts.
Another comment that begs the question of why you started playing HoMM in the first place, since you apparently find fault with every part of it.

Quote:
I can understand problem of some players being "but its different then other parts, i want it to be the same and its not thus it is bad". Those kind of problems i can understand and i think these are not real arguments.
They wouldn't be tenable arguments if H6 were a stand-alone game, but it's not, it a sequel, part of a series, and thus should share some elements with the previous game. Besides, so many simplifications alienate at least some of the hard-core players, those who like play for the strategy, rather than just the battles.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 23, 2011 02:46 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 02:52, 23 Oct 2011.

I just can say that i find it funny that you find viable strategy in all those aspects. Especially economically overpowering your opponent, lets play and you try to destroy me economically in h5 , see how will that work for you lol. I know there is a free speach n all but terycrafting-> that way


Im starting to think that all the people that complain are the single player players.
Who are far more numerous I suspect than multi-player gamers.


Sadly.. thats the truth

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 23, 2011 02:57 AM
Edited by MattII at 03:04, 23 Oct 2011.

Love to, but I don't actually own the game, economical issues in the real-world and all. You're going to mock that of course, but since only one of your comments is aimed specifically at H5 then I don't see it being an issue in any case.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Im starting to think that all the people that complain are the single player players.

Who are far more numerous I suspect than multi-player gamers.

Sadly.. thats the truth
Sadly? Seriously, if you don't play the campaigns or single-player, and complain about more-or-less half the game-play elements then why are you playing in the first place?

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 23, 2011 03:03 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 03:22, 23 Oct 2011.

Im not here to argue or to convince every person im right. I just express my opinion. I know some people have not played the game as much as me and they maybe dont appreciate the changes as much as i do. They think that less=siplified because they are not able to think deeper. Less does not mean less strategy.

I like the game very much because its fun to play multiplayer. AI is easy=campaigns are easy=boring. There are great players around who i enjoy playing very much. I always played this game for multiplayer and i have played it a ton. The fact that i like the changes does not mean i didnt like previous parts. I loved every new part except of homm4 which i thought its a demo of a game when i played it for the first time. All i said is i like the new approach because it removes redundant stuff. I also expressed my concern about it being too little random maybe. Thats all. Obviously i dont like that there is so many bugs and there are no simmultanious turns but thats not the point of the discussion.

Quote:
Town portals, town conversion, area grabbing mines, and dropping 3 resources don't count as over-simplification?


If that was actual question then no, it is not oversimplification. Thats getting rid of dull stuff which makes the game much longer that it should have been(area capt and town portals) and makes it more balanced (converting towns) and removes unnecessary stuff(so many recources)

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leonhart
leonhart


Hired Hero
posted October 23, 2011 08:16 AM

Imo the reduced resources is a good thing. For example in HIV (wow ) it wasn't fun to start with several stacks of sulfury when you played with Haven etc. So when I was playing with friends we had to re-roll the game till everyone had decent starting resources near the castle. First weeks are so crucial in these games so it's better to have balanced resources.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 24, 2011 01:01 PM

I've felt for a long time that the big failure of the resource systems in previous HoMM games was not the number of resources, but their utilisation (or lack thereof), I mean look at it, a fully build Tower in H3 is drawing 14,000 gold and 7 gems a week, plus 14 wood and 14 ore from the almost inevitable mines. What does it all get spent on? a weeks creatures costs over 15,000 gold, and a piddly 2 gems, so the only use for those other resources is to convert them to gold. What could be done to fix that? Make the Iron Golem cost 150 gold and 1 ore, the Archmage 400 gold and one crystal, the Genie/Master Genie 500 gold and 1/2 mercury, etc. Make the other resources actually useful in other words. Also, for the older skill systems, level 4 and 5 shrine which charge respectively 1 and 2 rare resources to view their spells (gems for Air/Light spells, mercury for Water/Dark, sulphur for Fire/Destructive, crystal for Earth/Summoning).

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted October 24, 2011 01:19 PM

Getting rid of dull stuff is ruining my immersion

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Karanshade
Karanshade


Adventuring Hero
posted October 24, 2011 03:44 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 19:01, 24 Oct 2011.

agreed 100%

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 24, 2011 06:34 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 18:39, 24 Oct 2011.

Karanshade, you should go to jail for quoting a huge wall of text only to add one line. And that's not a constructive line.


Heroes of Might and Magic has always been a bad multiplayer game. Alternate turns, heavy randomization without balance, other marks of single-player focus. It should've stayed that way. Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic is better at MP.

There are multiple benefits from several resources like in Heroes 1-5:
- flavor. Like an alchemist, you search for different ingredients. Some resources are more pleasant, like gems or crystals. Mercury is a bit strange. Sulfur is pretty vile, and used to create vile creatures (hydras, dragons)
- you can build your empire "vertically", or "horizontally". By "vertical" growth I mean you build up a village that matches your starting town. This is good because you can combine armies from both. And bad, because you'll need A LOT of the same resources. In case of H2 Sorceress, you'll need a lot of gems and mercury. Horizontal growth would be building a village that's different from your starting town. You won't be able to combine armies easily, you get slight morale hit (large hit if Necropolis, unless Necropolis + Minotaurs). But building is easier. You are likely to find these "other" resources anyway, and now can put them to use.
- availability of resources influences which villages you build
- although rarely worthwhile, there's a minor tradeoff: Mage Guild vs high level dwelling.
- excess resources available for trading.

Town portal, town conversion, reputation system in Heroes 6 all encourage "1 hero vs 1 hero" strategies. Not "Heroes of Might and Magic", but "Hero of Might and Magic". Simplification.

I wouldn't mind so much if the remaining bits of Heroes were perfectly balanced. But all evidence suggests it's going to be the usual mess balance-wise. "Snatch", a high level skill for solving early game issue. "Architect III", high level skill which gives very basic resources. Plain bad skills like Siege Master. So Heroes gets simplified, but gets nothing in exchange.

-----------------

MattIII

I agree, it's not the number of resources, it's spending. You build what you need, then you forget about resources. They accumulate and you can convert them to gold sometimes. Heroes 6 is the same way.

They could've done something different. For instance, Champion buildings could require the control of crystal mines to function. Then battles could be fought for their control.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 24, 2011 07:08 PM

Your arguments make perfect sense from a competitive multiplayer point of view, feluniozbunio, but I'm not sure it's true for the kind of game I like to play. Just saying that what's good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
____________
What will happen now?

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 24, 2011 09:44 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 21:54, 24 Oct 2011.

There are always people who like things being other way, its normal thing. I just hate when people complaing just because something is new. It was the same thing when H5 came out. Everybody was complaining how bad it was back then. I was one of the few that defended the game. And what happens now? Everybody says how good h5 was.

Quote:
Heroes of Might and Magic has always been a bad multiplayer game.


You obviously dont know what youre talking about. So why me and so many more people play homm series for multiplayer only FOR YEARS lol? Why this is the series i have spent playing most in my life and believe me i play probably thousands of games by now.

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 25, 2011 12:12 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 12:18, 25 Oct 2011.

Quote:

Quote:
Heroes of Might and Magic has always been a bad multiplayer game.


You obviously dont know what youre talking about. So why me and so many more people play homm series for multiplayer only FOR YEARS lol?


Because you don't know better and/or you have a bad taste in multiplayer games. Otherwise you'd play something more suited to MP, like AoW:SM, Dominions 3, Frozen Synapse, Laser Squad Nemesis, Solium Infernum, or even an RTS.

For instance, Heroes III is a good multiplayer game if you remove a big chunk from it. Just take a look at multiplayer rules and preferred setups.
For starters, games larger than 2 players are very unpopular, and for a good reason. Multiplayer is a misleading term, it's twoplayer. Necromancy, hill fort, upg. vamps, Conflux, Dimension Door, Fly, small maps, doublebuild.... Navigation, Eagle Eye, Learning, Scouting, Mysticism, Sorcery, First Aid... View Air, View Earth, filler/extremely situational stuff like protection from foo, Fire Wall, Landmines, Fireball, Fireblast, Sacrifice, most of Fire magic really.

Same with individual heroes. They are barely balanced, it's obvious the focus was variety (= single player, imagination in general belongs in single player, not twoplayer). Interesting hero backstories, theme.

The balance is so atrocious and needs so many fixes I prefer to treat it like a pure SP game. Again, all evidence so far suggests HOMM6 won't be a more balanced game, just a smaller game. It will still have lots of crap spells and skills.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 25, 2011 12:41 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 13:15, 25 Oct 2011.

So you say i got bad taste in MP games and your only 2 arguments are that

a) In homm people play usually 2 people in match... and this is somehow a bad thing?  Starcraft... chess...? You mad bro?


b) Atrocious balance. What? With your little knowledge and arrogance you probably was stomped by some good players, didnt you? Now you are crying the balance is bad. Dude im not going to talk to you anymore as i can see that you are holding some grudge vs homm. I have been winning constantly playing random towns random heroes with people choosing their castles and heroes. I won game of H5 being (random) sylvan with dungeon on a small map with a magic hero for christ sake lol. I love when people complain other things than them suck, when they are bad Sure, some things in homm are better then others, no game is perfectly balanced. But guess what, i got a little tip for you. You can use the good stuff playing every castle. Balance= people with roughly the same skill have similar chances to win. This is affected by random things which skew the chances in every game to one side or the other. Some very random games (like poker) you need to play a lot just to eliminate random factor for good player to show profit playng bad player. Its the same with all the randomness in homm. This is probably why they removed random stuff from the game, decresed luck and morale bonuses etc... Balance NOT equals having all spells in game having equally powerful effect.

c) Sure it was largely meant to be a single player game, developers arent stupid and they know that the player pool in mostly single player. But this doesnt mean its bad for multiplayer. Besides, seeing all those changes in H6 i think they started to notice MP community yey!

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted October 25, 2011 01:44 PM

Quote:
Balance = people with roughly the same skill have similar chances to win.
U-huh...
So when people say a game is imbalanced, they're actually referring to the 'gamers'?

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 25, 2011 03:44 PM

When people say the game is imbalanced it means one side has the unfair advantage which doesn't come from players skill but from game design.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted October 25, 2011 04:54 PM

The argument here is the age old one. MP Battles vs SP Adventures.
Everyone is entitled to their likes but what I don't get is why choose HoMM for warfare? I'd take any TotalWar title for that, if I want "real battle strategy".

Why stop at removing luck etc.? Why have ANY differences. Why not all play with EXACTLY the same everything. No building, no random anything. Then it would be a "pure" win. Nothing to blame in a loss.

Sadly this latest release appears to be about that market and <IMO> that's the wrong direction. Maybe it's time UBI makes 2 versions, since this last one is heavily focused to "on-line-social" anyway.

What's funny to me; is that RL is full of luck  and unexpected events etc.and yet I don't care if it shows up in my fantasy game  
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"Do your own research"

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 25, 2011 06:29 PM

I dont like they removed luck based things too. I liked the tension before i lvl up hoping i am going to get some good skills to choose from. It made every game different.

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 26, 2011 06:57 PM

Warcraft 2 was one of the most balanced multiplayer games ever. There were only minor differences between the sides of conflict. Elven archers had +1 range, orc spear throwers had slightly more damage. Late game spellcasters differed in spells.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 26, 2011 08:26 PM
Edited by MattII at 08:11, 27 Oct 2011.

Quote:
a) In homm people play usually 2 people in match... and this is somehow a bad thing?  Starcraft... chess...? You mad bro?
Starcraft has a limited range of tournament maps, and it's limited precisely because the balance is so difficult

Quote:
b) Atrocious balance. What?
There's a reason the town overviews on the H3 page include the Best Opponent and Worst Foe categories.

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