Heroes of Might and Magic Community
please log in.! Register | Today's Posts | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile

<a href="http://www.game-advertising-online.com/" target=_blank>Game Advertising Online</a><br> banner requires iframes

Heroes 1 (Heroes 2 (Heroes 3 (Heroes 4 (Heroes 5 (Heroes 6 ()

Login:     Username:     Password:    
Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Some Thoughs on the Heroes Formula
Thread: Some Thoughs on the Heroes Formula [ This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 (4) 5 ]
SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 03, 2011 03:18 AM

Quote:
...It's all about finding a way to make prerequisites useful, in a way that they give specific strengths and a distinct flavour. Also making certain units come later in play whether the map is poor or rich. One faction could work great with an accessible elite dwelling on week 1 while another with more accessible core upgrades or basic cores plus a special building that boosts them or the hero.
I agree & liked how Elvin said this & stopped the arguments

H6 seems a serious attempt by developer in listening to randomness, lucky/unluckiness, dynamic balance complaints from H5 with hero skills & no random mage guild spells but...

I liked H5 TotE skillwheel & the way the 4 magic schools were relatively good in their own way... but more random battle terrains ain't good.

oh well, I hope a polished H6 with 2 expansions will be better than H5 with 2 expansions... (the true formula is the game will only be really great after 2 expansions are released; probably with all the good features that appeared previously that should have been in there on first day)
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Brukernavn
Brukernavn


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2011 04:54 AM

Quote:
(the true formula is the game will only be really great after 2 expansions are released; probably with all the good features that appeared previously that should have been in there on first day)

That's true for both H3 and H5.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted October 03, 2011 05:20 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 05:21, 03 Oct 2011.

The expansions improved Heroes V much more than they did in the Heroes III case. 1 stupid and overpowered faction, RMG and artifact sets is all that Armageddon's Blade and Shadow of Death introduced while Hammers of Fate' and Tribes of the East' list is much longer. This comparison is however flawed because Heroes III didn't have many issues and was by all means a complete game when it was released while Heroes V was an abomination and remained such until Tribes of the East.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
WhiteRider
WhiteRider


Known Hero
death walks with me
posted October 07, 2011 06:27 AM

Which twisted mind has invented these numbers:

394/338/390(+stats, +level) Death is not the end
22/25/29% Demonic Luck and Divine justice
267/307/353(+stats, +level) Father Sky's Wrath
+16/18/21(+stats) Hour of Judgment
214/246/283(+stats, +level) Idol of Storms

or my "favorite"
12.49/14.36/16.51(+stats, +level) Darkness Elemental
12.6/14.5/16.7(+stats)% Life Drain Mass


If I take these numbers from the perspective of my all time favorite game Kings Bounty, the numbers look ugly - in KB there is a function that rounds all numbers and makes them look nice - gold, large damage, large spell numbers etc. But even without this, the formulas in H6 are strange - the first level of many many skills gives you huge bonus like 22%, 214 or 267 damage and than the bonus from the next level is unsignificant compared to the first one.

This is the same by all destructive spells, no matter which school they are. If you take second or third level of the spell is a waste of an ability point for two reasons: the bonus for any next level is too small and you have the cooldown for the same spell. If you just take another spell on 1st level you can cast it on the next round and with three desctructive 1st level spells you can cast a damaging spell every round. With one damaging spell on 3d level you can cast it every three rounds and your spell damage will be greatly reduced.

Not to mention the formula for calculating damage/attack/defense. I remember when h4 was out how many people cried that attack*damage/defense was very confusing for them (actually this was one of the most elegant formulas I have encountered in a strategy game, I always go through the mechanics of every game I am playing). And now it seems that most of the people are ok with this formula:

Attack Mod = (1+ Might Power/100)^2.5 (the same goes for Magic Power)
or
Defense Mod = 1/(1+Defense/100)^2.5

In short, I am stunned how needless complex this game looks at the moment. All these statistics, calculations make me think that if you change one number in the spells or might damage the whole system will crumble - but is it all that balanced at all?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 07, 2011 03:08 PM

WhiteRider:

My guess is they're trying to encourage skill variety. They can't came up with valid reasons for diversification, so they do it with game mechanics. Spells have cooldown for the same reason - to force diveresification. For the same reason, higher skill levels have level requirements.
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted July 26, 2012 05:46 AM
Edited by Elvin at 15:03, 27 Jul 2012.

I had some thoughts on the impact of luck and morale. I have yet to find a heroes game that got it right - with H1-3 being satisfying yet rare, H4 being a departure in mechanics that I disliked, H5 both frequent and powerful and H6 feeling lackluster. Having each point at 1% triggering chance for +50% effect just doesn't feel enough nor can they be compared to the other primary stats that give a guaranteed +2.5% effect per point. It makes sense that they would be part of the primary stats but the implementation wasn't quite right, not just because they are not balanced with the rest of the stats but also because they are so much different in their effect. Also gaining +1 luck at a level up and knowing you have gained a whole +1% chance for critical feels.. lame really. It is a good thing that luck-based factions like inferno or morale-based factions like haven get more of their favoured stats now that skills are not tied to chance but there are other ways to go about it.

I would instead propose that luck/morale points give a 5% chance for +50% effect with a theoretical cap of 20, where the triggering chance would be 100%. That should be a lot more balanced but also more trigger-happy kind of fun and at the same time easy to calculate your chances at any given time. Whether they would still be part of the primary stats is a matter of taste and balance but personally I would rather have them as part of the skill system and expand the skill trees of certain factions with specialized perks. Like warlock's luck(+x% boost to the next spell for each lucky attack triggered until now), elven luck(+x% dmg to lucky attacks), dead man's luck(-x luck for opponent), retribution(+x% dmg boost for each morale point), battle frenzy(+x morale to the unit that kills a stack), demoralize(-1 morale to all units for each stack that dies) etc. Of course the units could retain their starting luck/morale values ranging from 0 to 2 according to a unit's nature and native faction and maybe include -1 and 3 in extreme cases If we wanted to limit the potential of the skill we could apply a cap(possibly at 50% triggering chance), after all it can be hard to account for the accumulated luck/morale from skills, abilities, units and artifacts.

And of course.. I would like to see potential strategies that can fully demoralize or rain ill luck on an opponent That part hasn't really been explored in heroes yet.

No thoughts on that?
____________
Loading please wait..

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MattII
MattII


Supreme Hero
posted July 27, 2012 07:39 PM
Edited by MattII at 03:53, 29 Jul 2012.

Well most of my experience is with Heroes 3, and I can say that the luck in there definitely needs some tweaking, for example with +3 Luck you have a 12.5% chance of doing maximum damage, but if that 1/8 chance doesn't trigger, then it does absolutely nothing. IMO a better way would be in modifying the damage-scale slightly, so +3 luck meant you couldn't get in the bottom 12.5% of the official scale, and also that the enemy couldn't hit in the top 12.5% of his scale. Likewise, high morale gives you a chance of acting again, but if it doesn't trigger, it's worthless., but you could easily rework that by saying that morale affects your attack scale, so +3 Morale would add 1.5/3/4.5 Attack, depending on if a creature was Core/Elite/Champion.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted July 29, 2012 02:41 AM

That would be going backwards. 12.5% is a ridiculously low chance while double the damage can be too much, no amount of minor tweaking can change that. Reducing the effect while increasing its triggering chance is better for balance.
____________
Loading please wait..

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MattII
MattII


Supreme Hero
posted July 29, 2012 04:33 AM

That's basically what I'm saying, do away with the chances of big events triggering, and make them constant but small effects.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
hobo2
hobo2


Known Hero
posted July 29, 2012 11:04 AM

If you're going to make Luck into something that you get instead of damage boosts (whether it be Attack Skill like in Heroes VI or in lieu of skills like Offense in Heroes III), then you have to have Luck do something interesting that makes it different. The bare minimum is the critical hit in King's Bounty: it only triggers on a basic attack (so creatures with special strikes like serpents and pirates care less), and it also maximizes damage in addition to providing a multiplier effect (so creatures with very random damage like fairies and archers care more). That kind of thing lets a luck army feel different from an army that is invested in any other kind of attack boost.

Personally, I don't much care whether luck triggers often for less or rarely for more. You're going to make so many attacks in a Heroes game that it's going to average out either way. But Luck does need to have some sort of comparative advantage wherein I can make a logical case for wanting to use Luck enhancers with one army or some other form of damage boosts with another army. It's a strategy game, and strategic synergies are important.

Heroes VI Luck is a complete failure not just because it's mathematically horrendously inferior - but because it really isn't any different from just coming out with a boost to attack power. It's just raw extra damage, meaning that it can only be universally better or worse than an always on damage boost - and it's a simple matter of multiplication of fractions to determine which it is. Of course, the game also needs to provide more troops that you could use than you have slots in your army so that you can make choices about army composition, which is yet another way in which Heroes VI was terrible.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Ω Sunt lacrimae rerum Ω
posted July 29, 2012 12:50 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 12:53, 29 Jul 2012.

Instead of damage you could have a % of armour penetration, a lucky 'chink in the mail' if you will.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
gnomes2169 Online
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted July 29, 2012 04:12 PM

Something that has always struck me about heroes is how many skills there are that allow you to destroy the defender in sieges (Siege machines, catapults, AOE lingering spells, etc), but you get little to no hero skills that assist you in defending against a siege. I think that it might be interesting to have a skill or a skill set that allows you to hold a town with a secondary hero better while you have your main hero running around doing their thing. I say this because if an enemy hero attacks one of your towns while you are away, they take only the bare minimum losses if that. Your secondary heroes generally stand no chance against the overwhelming numbers and quality of the attacker.

Just a thought, since I hate having to go back to re-reinforce my town after stealing it back from my enemy for the tenth time...
____________
"GNOMES GET OUT OF MY BRAIN"
-Adrius

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted July 29, 2012 04:14 PM

Quote:
Something that has always struck me about heroes is how many skills there are that allow you to destroy the defender in sieges (Siege machines, catapults, AOE lingering spells, etc), but you get little to no hero skills that assist you in defending against a siege. I think that it might be interesting to have a skill or a skill set that allows you to hold a town with a secondary hero better while you have your main hero running around doing their thing. I say this because if an enemy hero attacks one of your towns while you are away, they take only the bare minimum losses if that. Your secondary heroes generally stand no chance against the overwhelming numbers and quality of the attacker.

Just a thought, since I hate having to go back to re-reinforce my town after stealing it back from my enemy for the tenth time...

That'd be quite a fine idea, actually.
____________
"And if you're half as excited as I am, then we've discovered a whole new level of indifference." - David Mitchell

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted July 29, 2012 05:25 PM

I too would like some improvement on siege defense, especially against forts. It would be nice if there were some buildings for that role, after all storming a fort is fairly boring as it is. It's just a pointless delay..

Quote:
But Luck does need to have some sort of comparative advantage wherein I can make a logical case for wanting to use Luck enhancers with one army or some other form of damage boosts with another army. It's a strategy game, and strategic synergies are important.

Heroes VI Luck is a complete failure not just because it's mathematically horrendously inferior - but because it really isn't any different from just coming out with a boost to attack power. It's just raw extra damage, meaning that it can only be universally better or worse than an always on damage boost - and it's a simple matter of multiplication of fractions to determine which it is.

That is an interesting idea.. Which reminds me that H6 luck was initially meant to maximize your unit damage. If the game was built along those lines we could have luck-based factions with more diverse damage that would get more accurate as you level up. It makes sense that luck would favour some better than others.
____________
Loading please wait..

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xerox
Xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2012 05:56 PM

After playing a bit, I realized that I don't miss the old resource system a lot. Sure, a second rare resource might be nice for some variety but I don't want the old system with four rare resources back.

Thing is, in H6 you kinda have a 5th resource already and that it is creature growth. In most areas were there are mines, there is a creature dwelling too. And those dwellings are realy important to get.
____________
Over himself, over his own body and
mind, the individual is sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
hobo2
hobo2


Known Hero
posted July 29, 2012 09:04 PM

Quote:
Instead of damage you could have a % of armour penetration, a lucky 'chink in the mail' if you will.


That could work. Luck would be fundamentally better against low-hit point, high defense enemies like Swordsmen and worse against high hit point, low defense enemies like Ogres. The comparative advantage would be based on what your opponent was fielding, but there'd be something to make strategic decisions around. Field a Luck army against Haven and a Might army against Stronghold, or something like that.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted July 30, 2012 03:00 AM

Quote:
And of course.. I would like to see potential strategies that can fully demoralize or rain ill luck on an opponent That part hasn't really been explored in heroes yet.

Well H5 explored this with dwarves ultimate, and certain necro hero with Banshee howl speciality (together with ring broken will really messed up opponents morale)....

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted July 30, 2012 06:49 AM

I don't count those because absolute abilities sucked in so many ways that it wasn't even funny.
____________
Loading please wait..

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Ω Sunt lacrimae rerum Ω
posted July 30, 2012 09:16 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 09:27, 30 Jul 2012.

Quote:
I don't count those because absolute abilities sucked in so many ways that it wasn't even funny.


I often entertained the idea of them, but it was nothing to base actual strategy on, but on my road to achieving it I picked up a few useful abilities (like Elven luck 25%), but the only ones that I consider as true ultimates, are the stronghold, Sylvan and Dwarven ones.

In the H5 campaign I was NEVER aware that the two veterans that you free with Findan both have Natures luck, it's a game winning skill.

But ye'h in my 7 years of playing H5 I've never actually managed to get any of the ultimate skills, once I got so desperate that I made a map and gave my guy the necessary exp, and I still got derailed soooo easily. Maybe in Heroes 6's leveling system it would be more viable?
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted July 30, 2012 09:26 AM

On reality terms. In multiplayer they were almost never used because the risk of never getting them was too great, custom builds are still better than the lame skill requirements for the absolute and you cannot creep seriously with those skills anyway. There were more reasons but that's the basic idea why it was pointless to even try. It might work against a casual player but almost never against an experienced one.

As such it was a failed idea of an interesting concept.
____________
Loading please wait..

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
[ This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 (4) 5 ] < Prev Thread . . . Next Thread >
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0693 seconds