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| Thread: Heroes 6 skill system - oppinions and suggestions for improvement |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 26, 2011 10:31 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 10:36, 26 Oct 2011.
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I would propose a different setup altogether, to be honest. I am leeching from a few succesful games that have employed varying talent trees: Diablo 2 and World of Warcraft. Both games give Heroes three talent trees with varying skills and impact. I would suggest something similar here, so let me elaborate.
First of all, each faction should have access to five talent trees in general:
1) Adventure oriented: this talent tree contains stuff like Logistics and Scouting and each Hero starts with this tree active by default.
2) Might, Offensive oriented: this talent tree boosts the damage output of your Hero and his troops, on the Might aspect. It contains specific creature boosts to the corresponding faction, like "Eliminates the Range penalty for your Crossbowmen and Marksmen" (yes, I know they already don't have a ranged penalty, but they should - with this talent to nullify it).
3) Might, Defensive oriented: this talent tree boosts the survivability of your troops, on the Might aspect. For instance, it may boost the defense value of Sentinels and Praetorians, reduce the damage they take from shielding other stacks, while still absorbing the same amount of damage. Orcs don't have this talent tree, instead they get a talent tree regarding War Cries (akin to Heroes 5).
4) Magic, Offensive oriented: this talent tree boosts the damage output of your Heroes' spells as well as that of the Magic attacks of your creatures. For instance, it can boost the damage your Vestals deal to Undead, Orcs and Demons when they use their Heal on them.
5) Magic, Defensive oriented: this talent tree boosts the preservation of your troops, through magic shields, healing and resurrection type spells.
These talent trees are tier-based, with each new tier opening up with every X levels of the Hero in question. Each higher tier would have more powerful talents. Maybe every 5 levels? That would make for like 5 tiers, maxing out at level 25. Or maybe every 3 levels, making for 5 tiers at level 15. This is a balancing aspect. Each time a Hero levels up, he gets 1 or more talent points; the exact number is also a balancing aspect. Maybe some talents can have multiple tiers, like for instance a talent in the Offensive Fire tree that boosts damage from Fire spells by 10%, for every level in the talent, with a max of 5 (so +50% fire damage to Fire spells). Once more: balancing.
Both Magic trees focus on the Prime Element, along with a mix of the aligned Element. Orcs are special in this respect, as their magic is shamanistic and tribal in nature, focussing equally on Father Sky (Air magic) and Mother Earth (Earth magic). As such, they don't really have a Prime and Aligned element in this respect, they have two on equal footing. Furthermore, the Magic talent trees have the "Mass" version of spells, requiring the single target version to be used.
Faction-wise, this gives the following Magic talent trees:
Haven:
Prime Element: Light Magic
Offensive Alignment: Fire Magic
Defensive Alignment: Water Magic
Necropolis:
Prime Element: Dark Magic
Offensive Alignment: Air Magic
Defensive Alignment: Earth Magic
Inferno:
Prime Element: Fire Magic
Offensive Alignment: Earth Magic
Defensive Alignment: Air Magic
Sanctuary:
Prime Element: Water Magic
Offensive Alignment: Air Magic
Defensive Alignment: Earth Magic
Orcs:
Prime Elements: Earth Magic, Air Magic. Their two Magic talent trees focus on either the Offensive aspect of these two Elements, or the Defensive aspects.
So, this means that Haven has an Offensive Magic talent tree that focusses on Light Magic, with several Fire Magic talents to go along. The Defensive branch doesn't have Fire Magic talents, but instead Water Magic to go along with the Light Magic.
I am doubting to have a return to Mage Guilds as a level 1 building in your towns, to learn your spells again. However, if they are returned, Heroes should be able to learn all spells of a given tier from it, of any type of Magic school, rather than a random assortment (which was really the bane of Magic in H3 and H5, at least). The only exclusion is the opposing Element: Haven doesn't get Dark, Necropolis doesn't get Light, Inferno doesn't get Water and Sanctuary doesn't get Fire. Orcs are special in this respect, in that they don't get access to Light and Dark Magic. Maybe also make it so that you need to have the Talent tree of the corresponding elements to learn higher than level 2 spells, but I am not sure about this one either. Again, balancing checks should point that one out. Orcs don't get the Mage Guild, but they get a Witch Hut instead, or a Shaman's Hut, or whatever. The function is the same.
Now, how does this work in practice?
Your Heroes start out at level 1, with the Adventure tree already active. There are two "slots" for talent trees, that are yet unassigned. Each hero also starts off with a talent point, which they can use in the Adventure tree, or they can opt to open the second talent tree and invest it there. The second talent tree available for opening depends on whether your Hero is Might oriented, or Magic oriented. Might Heroes must choose between the Might, Offensive, or Might, Defensive talent trees. Magic Heroes between the Magic, Offensive, or Magic, Defensive talent trees.
Once this second talent tree is opened, Heroes getting a talent point on their next level up can choose to open the third and final talent tree. For that third one, they can choose any of the three talent trees not already chosen. For a Hero who already unlocked Might, Offensive, for instance, he can choose to have the third tree be either Might, Defensive, or Magic, Offensive, or Magic, Defensive. Note that this means that a Might Hero of a given faction can have the same talent trees as a Magic Hero of the same faction; the difference is in the gain of primary stats when the Heroes level up. Might Heroes get primarily Might statistics, Magic Heroes get primarily Magic statistics.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 11:27 AM |
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I think I have much more simple solution to this, as overcomplicating is not a good idea imho, and simple is usually the best...
What would you guys say if your hero would get one 'special' talent point whenever it gets new rank of racial ability (1,5,15,25?) starting with one special point on lvl1.
Now this point would be used to unlock one skill tree, so each time you get one you can unlock one skill tree, be it light magic or realm skills.
This limits skill shopping and makes quite interesting choice for you i think, besides it doesn't require extensive changes to current talent 'trees'
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 26, 2011 11:27 AM |
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@alcibiades, the reason why I wrote those words is that you'll have a hard time persuading people to have to take Light I when they don't have any light magic spells.
Arguably, that is a valid point, I had not thought about that. Indeed, that would then necessitate that you get two skill points at each level up, or at least at some level-ups.
That in itself was something I argued for when playing the beta because leveling was extremely slow back then, but I know they looked into that, so that might not be relevant anymore. It's not a problem that can't be solved, but I agree it's deffinitely something that would have to be worked on, as picking the magic skill itself is pointless without any spells.
Another possible solution would be to grand you a random level 1 spell when selecting Magic I, but there are some weaknesses to such a method also.
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What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 26, 2011 12:34 PM |
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These talent trees are tier-based, with each new tier opening up with every X levels of the Hero in question. Each higher tier would have more powerful talents. Maybe every 5 levels? That would make for like 5 tiers, maxing out at level 25. Or maybe every 3 levels, making for 5 tiers at level 15. This is a balancing aspect. Each time a Hero levels up, he gets 1 or more talent points; the exact number is also a balancing aspect. Maybe some talents can have multiple tiers, like for instance a talent in the Offensive Fire tree that boosts damage from Fire spells by 10%, for every level in the talent, with a max of 5 (so +50% fire damage to Fire spells). Once more: balancing.
Let me make sure that I understand this correct: What you suggest is a tier system similar to the current system with 3 tiers (or 5) that become available at a certain hero level, and which have multiple skill on each tier to choose from (and where certain skills can upgrade over levels, such as Scouting I, Scouting II, Scouting III, etc.). Is that correct?
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Both Magic trees focus on the Prime Element, along with a mix of the aligned Element. Orcs are special in this respect, as their magic is shamanistic and tribal in nature, focussing equally on Father Sky (Air magic) and Mother Earth (Earth magic). As such, they don't really have a Prime and Aligned element in this respect, they have two on equal footing. Furthermore, the Magic talent trees have the "Mass" version of spells, requiring the single target version to be used.
I'm not sure I understand the thing with the Mass version - what you mean is that in order to learn Mass Haste, you first need to learn Haste - right?
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Faction-wise, this gives the following Magic talent trees:
Haven:
Prime Element: Light Magic
Offensive Alignment: Fire Magic
Defensive Alignment: Water Magic
Necropolis:
Prime Element: Dark Magic
Offensive Alignment: Air Magic
Defensive Alignment: Earth Magic
Inferno:
Prime Element: Fire Magic
Offensive Alignment: Earth Magic
Defensive Alignment: Air Magic
Sanctuary:
Prime Element: Water Magic
Offensive Alignment: Air Magic
Defensive Alignment: Earth Magic
Orcs:
Prime Elements: Earth Magic, Air Magic. Their two Magic talent trees focus on either the Offensive aspect of these two Elements, or the Defensive aspects.
So, this means that Haven has an Offensive Magic talent tree that focusses on Light Magic, with several Fire Magic talents to go along. The Defensive branch doesn't have Fire Magic talents, but instead Water Magic to go along with the Light Magic.
I have some doubts about this part of the system. First of all, there seems to be a lack of symmetry in that three factions have Air/Earth in their Offensive/Defensive allignments, and only one faction has Fire/Water. Wouldn't that naturally be two of each?
Secondly, I'm not sure I agree on the way you have always the opposite alignment as Offensive/Defensive. Doesn't that make some confusion with also these schools sometimes being barred, or is there something I don't understand here? And also, isn't the fact that you lock each faction on a specific elemenet going to have some unfortunate side effects in terms of predictability and exploits of certain vulnerabilities?
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What will happen now?
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 12:41 PM |
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@alcibiades, the reason why I wrote those words is that you'll have a hard time persuading people to have to take Light I when they don't have any light magic spells.
Arguably, that is a valid point, I had not thought about that. Indeed, that would then necessitate that you get two skill points at each level up, or at least at some level-ups.
That in itself was something I argued for when playing the beta because leveling was extremely slow back then, but I know they looked into that, so that might not be relevant anymore. It's not a problem that can't be solved, but I agree it's deffinitely something that would have to be worked on, as picking the magic skill itself is pointless without any spells.
Another possible solution would be to grand you a random level 1 spell when selecting Magic I, but there are some weaknesses to such a method also.
Well, you could mix the H5 and H6 systems. Skill ranks are gained randomly as in previous HoMM (gaining a level, visiting a withc hut, an university, etc...). When taking a skill rank you gain 1 skill point to spend in that tree.
For each level-up, the hero would be granted a choice between :
- a random Basic skill
- a random rank in a skill he already has
- 1-3 points to spend anywhere
- 2-5 points to spend in a random skill
Skill points are used to buy skills, but could also be used to buy an additional rank for 3 skill points (for example).
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted October 26, 2011 01:05 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 13:09, 26 Oct 2011.
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I am in total agreement that the skill system needs some spicing up and that there's various ways to do it. There's no way the entire thing will be revamped from scratch, but we already spoke about a few hypotheticals in private, a couple of small changes here and there that could have a huge influence. The happiest fact is that we already have 150 skills implemented in the game (and they will all work as intended eventually  ), so it's mostly just the means of obtaining them that needs more revision.
This may sound like an angry rant but it is not, it's all purely in the spirit of being constructive. I am a big proponent of making no two heroes play quite the same, and I think class diversity is really suffering at the moment, so here are a few thoughts on actions I might take, radical and otherwise:
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How about a faction-only skills in a (might or magic) category? For example, a Sanctuary-only water spell, or a Haven-only Realm skill etc? That will spice up the selection a bit, without forcing someone to pick something.
- Right now hero classes are close to interchangeable and factions are begging for individuality, contrary to my hopes. So one thing we mentioned was picking out about 60 skills (12 per faction) and making them completely exclusive, six to each class? A lot of control and choice is great (the first skill tree proposals for H6 had next to no choice), but far too much control gives way to a uniformity and lack of diversity. There is a balance to be found and some restrictions are appropriate, or otherwise there are no real playstyles and hence not much of an engaging system.
- In the same vein I'd give every single individual hero (not class, every hero) either one or two bonus skills to start with (in line with H3 and H5), which can't be removed by respec, rather than having all blank-slate characters. Although this could of course upset balance and create creeping problems, but, well, either be that as it may or choose the skills appropriately to minimise this problem.
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But obviously, if you like completely free skill picking, that makes your interests incompatible with mine, as my major objection with the new skill system is the completely free skill picking.
- Forced choices from a random pool of three skills on level-up kind of goes against the developers' professed philosophy of giving the player "conscious choices", but I'm of the opinion that who cares, and in fact I don't know that I agree with Erwan that it is "more strategic" whatsoever. It had its flaws, but I enjoyed the riskier nature of the Heroes 1-5 system; it nearly guaranteed that no two heroes would develop in the same way. In TotE it was superlative, quite balanced and avoided the Where's Wally, cookie-cutter game of finding the ultimate combination of skills for each class.  I was happy to give the new system a chance, even complimentary of it as I assumed that each hero's class and specialty would easily make up for the lost individuality, but I was mistaken. Now I know a lot of people actually do appreciate the broad choice, but I would consider doing a U-turn and bringing the old "casino game" way back if only for a trial run, to see how things play. I have to admit that in H6 as of now, I spend a lot of time in the midgame completely avoiding the skills screen and just accumulating skill points I don't use.
- Remove respecs: this would be absolutely necessary if going back to forced choices on level-up. I have never been much of a cheerleader of respecs, failing to understand the philosophy behind them. And indeed, I don't even really use them. I pressed that button only once while playing through the campaigns.
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Let's re-divide the Might skills into 7 new "schools", and make it so that each faction only has access to 5 of these.
- Or reduce available schools for every faction by 1: which is essentially a cheap version of Alcibiades' excellent idea on page 1 (ideally I prefer Alc's idea). It's mostly inspired by the Stronghold's Shamans having access to everything, which I feel is a bit backwards. Unfortunately there is currently a slight Heroes IV vibe again with more magic than might abilities (which absolutely everybody can pick from). Boils down to a matter of taste, whether you're more inclined towards maximising choice or maximising diversity, but surely there is room for compromise.  None of the classes are restricted from using a Might school, which rings alarm bells in my mind! It should easily be possible to pad out the pool of Might skills in patches or other content and start restricting some hero types from using Paragon, Realm or whatnot. It still leaves well over a hundred skills behind for everybody to pick from and diversifies the classes further.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 01:08 PM |
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@Nelgirith this is all fine and dandy, but ideas like that are just utopia... it different game you are talking, and there is no way stuff like that would happen.
I don't think any of this will ever happen but ideas that involve reimplementing 50% of game belong in 'altar of wishes' forum imo
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 01:12 PM |
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I am doubting to have a return to Mage Guilds as a level 1 building in your towns, to learn your spells again. However, if they are returned, Heroes should be able to learn all spells of a given tier from it, of any type of Magic school, rather than a random assortment (which was really the bane of Magic in H3 and H5, at least). The only exclusion is the opposing Element: Haven doesn't get Dark, Necropolis doesn't get Light, Inferno doesn't get Water and Sanctuary doesn't get Fire. Orcs are special in this respect, in that they don't get access to Light and Dark Magic. Maybe also make it so that you need to have the Talent tree of the corresponding elements to learn higher than level 2 spells, but I am not sure about this one either. Again, balancing checks should point that one out. Orcs don't get the Mage Guild, but they get a Witch Hut instead, or a Shaman's Hut, or whatever. The function is the same.
actually, I think the return of the mage guild may fit with the new system. but in that case you would need to learn some specific magic skills first before you can learn spells from the guild, otherwise you could just learn every spell. the selection of spells in the guild would be random, but if you don't get the spell you wanted, you can still choose to learn it from levelling up as it currently is.
of course, some people will say, and what if my guild is catastrophic, when the opponent gets a perfect guild? but I suppose that most of the time it is about getting 1 or 2 particurlarly crucial spells, so having to sacrifice 1 or 2 levels shouldn't be too handicapping?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 26, 2011 02:10 PM |
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But obviously, if you like completely free skill picking, that makes your interests incompatible with mine, as my major objection with the new skill system is the completely free skill picking.
- Forced choices from a random pool of three skills on level-up kind of goes against the developers' professed philosophy of giving the player "conscious choices", but I'm of the opinion that who cares, and in fact I don't know that I agree with Erwan that it is "more strategic" whatsoever.
I think - perhaps - you misunderstood the point I was trying to make with my statement that my wishes were incompatible with the completely free skill-picking (or your just quoting it sort of out of context).
I'm not opting to go back to skills being offered by chance. While I would indeed prefer that, I know that that is no longer an option - they made the new system a pick-by-will, and we have to work within that frame. That doesn't mean, however, that you can't have more restrictions in terms of some skills opening up a new group of skills. So what we were talking about was whether it would be a good idea to force the player to "unlock" a skill group (like Light Magic, or Tactics) through having to pick the "major" skill first. I don't have any problems with such restrictions (if implemented in a meaningful way, cf. skprimus' objections above), whereas the other person said he wanted 100 % freedom of choice.
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What will happen now?
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httassadar
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 02:56 PM |
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Dont think anyone has mentioned -- HoMM6 skill tree is exactly the Diablo II type, just all heroes have the same skill tree.
This is pretty bad as
1 Faction difference is now far from significant. In HoMM5, every faction plays a completely different style, and everytime you start a new game, you can choose a style that you haven't played for a while. Now if you are bored about the game, you are bored of every faction.
2 No randomness? Remember in HoMM5 and you are playing Sylvan, when you completely change your heroes development plan when you are offered war machine? One old usual game suddenly becomes interesting. Now... boring... as you know your future right from the start.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted October 26, 2011 03:00 PM |
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I think - perhaps - you misunderstood the point I was trying to make with my statement that my wishes were incompatible with the completely free skill-picking (or your just quoting it sort of out of context).
Guilty. To be honest, I only slipped in the quotes after writing everything else to help indicate which topic I was addressing... and to break up my wall of text. 
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 26, 2011 04:01 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 16:02, 26 Oct 2011.
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Re-introducing the randomness will be - to a large extent - a mistake at the current moment. The problem is that their intention was to get rid of the anti-strategic pick of what the algorithm decides to offer you and replace it with a strictly planned, systematic development of the hero but apparently they haven't thought about the eventual complications too much. In order to keep a system allowing multiple choices interesting, you have to make them equally attractive (or at least the next best thing to equally attractive), otherwise the choice is reduced to which of the useful skills should be taken when the hero levels up and which of these useful skills are actually appropriate to select against the current opponent(s). And the perfect template is born.
One possible way to make the factions unique, apart from introducing faction-specific skills, is to re-design the "prices" of the skills in accordance with the faction and eventually the reputation (Blood, Tears) choice. Instead of getting 1 skill point per level, each hero could receive X (where X>1) skill points for allocation but the skills from the various trees could cost from X-Y (i.e. cheaper than the current amount of skill points) through X to X+Y (i.e. certain skill will be too expensive to buy with just one level's worth of skill points). Using, for example, Haven, this could work like this: a regular Knight receives, say, 5 skill points per level up. For him/her the War-cries are priced 3 skill points each, the Light spells are 5 skill points each and the Fire spells are 7 skill points each. Obviously he/she can pick 1 War-cry or Light spell but no Fire spell with just 5 skill points. Picking a War-cry allows him to pick up to 2 War-cries with the next level due to 2 spare skill points from this one. Saving all skill points allows picking 1 Fire spell on the next level + eventually 1 War-cry (or leaving the remaining 3 spare). And so on. In the Cleric's case, being a Magic hero, the pricing could be: 3 skill points for Light Magic, 7 for War-cries, 5 for Fire Magic. The prices for a Shaman would be 3 skill points for Fire Magic, 5 for Light Magic and 7 for War-Cries. This is just for illustration of course. Adding the Tear/Blood reputation to the equation could result in lower price for all skills/spells from the respective allignment and higher price for all from the opposite. Additionally, each faction could receive extra effectiveness from certain skill/spell tree - for instance +20% more effective Fire Spells for the Warlock by default and +2% bonus for each next level (+5% after the reputation choice for the respective spells) - and no other faction would be able to match it in the given field.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 26, 2011 04:21 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 17:05, 26 Oct 2011.
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Let me make sure that I understand this correct: What you suggest is a tier system similar to the current system with 3 tiers (or 5) that become available at a certain hero level, and which have multiple skill on each tier to choose from (and where certain skills can upgrade over levels, such as Scouting I, Scouting II, Scouting III, etc.). Is that correct?
Yes, this is correct.
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I'm not sure I understand the thing with the Mass version - what you mean is that in order to learn Mass Haste, you first need to learn Haste - right?
Again, correct  . But keep in mind that my initial concept is to have *all* spells available if the Mage Guild of the proper level has been constructed. So if Haste is a level 2 spell in this game, you'd need a level 2 Mage Guild in your town(s), but once you do, a single visit is enough to learn all spells of that level. There's no random factor here, the only spells you don't learn (ever) are those of your diametrically opposed enemy, Magic wise (so Haven can't ever learn Dark spells, for instance).
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I have some doubts about this part of the system. First of all, there seems to be a lack of symmetry in that three factions have Air/Earth in their Offensive/Defensive allignments, and only one faction has Fire/Water. Wouldn't that naturally be two of each?
Yes, I agree with you, I have had to think about that for a while. As it is, it's just an idea, a concept, that I wrote down . The reason to make it such is because Inferno is clearly associated with Fire and Sanctuary with Water. At the same time, Haven is associated with Light and Necropolis with Dark. I can't couple Fire magic to Sanctuary, for obvious reasons. Neither does it seem fitting to tie Fire magic with Dark magic, because Fire is well, light and all ... contrasting with Dark. This lead to having three factions with Earth and Air as secondary.
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Secondly, I'm not sure I agree on the way you have always the opposite alignment as Offensive/Defensive. Doesn't that make some confusion with also these schools sometimes being barred, or is there something I don't understand here?
No, not the way I had it in mind. For Light Magic, its associate Magic schools in this system are Water and Fire. For Light Magic, its opposite is Dark Magic, which is the only school being barred. None of the combinations I noted down are also barring eachother, so to speak.
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And also, isn't the fact that you lock each faction on a specific elemenet going to have some unfortunate side effects in terms of predictability and exploits of certain vulnerabilities?
Predictability, perhaps. Keep in mind that for instance a Haven Magic user can still use Earth and Air spells, but to (much) lower effect than Magic users who have some affinity for them. In contrast, even though all Magic users (besides Orcs, in my setup, and Necromancers) can use Light Magic, there's no one coming close to wielding it as efficient and powerful as a Haven Magic Hero. I don't see a problem with giving specific vulnerabilities to compensate the strengths of a faction.
Edit: I've made another consideration regarding Magic school alignments. Initially my idea was to keep Sanctuary and Inferno to strictly the four classical elements. However, that leads to the issue that Air and Earth are secondary to four Factions.
If I let go of the idea of the classic quatro, then there's nothing wrong with changing Sanctuary to be associated with Light instead of Air, and Inferno to be associated with Light instead of Earth. It leaves Dark to only Necropolis, but maybe expansion factions can get associated with it as well. I'd say that the Silver Cities would be associated to each of the four classic elements, but maybe another faction, like Dungeon, could be associated with Dark as well.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted October 26, 2011 06:50 PM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 18:52, 26 Oct 2011.
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Forcing skills into groups won't fix the fundamental lack of balance. The amplitude between worst and best skill in a given group shouldn't be too high.
(Amplitude - the difference between minimum and maximum value of something. In H3 context you could say there's a big amplitude of skill value, compare Logistics to First Aid or Learning).
If they want to keep that skill/spell supermarket, they better make sure each skill is approximately as valuable as any other. Pathfinding is a good skill, there's a moderate amount of rough terrain usually. Navigation is a bad skill 90% of the case (or more). Just balance the damn skills. Make all skills interesting. Tweak the numbers where it makes sense, replace skills where there's fundamental design flaw (Logistics vs Snatch).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Gweret
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 07:32 PM |
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@Zenofex
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otherwise the choice is reduced to which of the useful skills should be taken when the hero levels up and which of these useful skills are actually appropriate to select against the current opponent(s). And the perfect template is born.
I don't have this feeling, it is even opposite. There is always a few skills I really need but I can't take them now.
Perfect template. Ekhm. Currently I don't see perfect templates.
In previous Heroes it was also possible. Every one known what to get.
You had two options:
(stupid skill or skill you like), skill you own but with "lower level".
You pick lower level, because you do not want stupid skill.
If you are unlucky you will take stupid skill.
Why must you take the skill you do not *want* to? In all RPG games this would be not acceptable. Because this is in essence of RPG games, you make YOUR character the way you want, not the way your computer want.
And some people try to say that this had "strategy" or "greatness" or "diversity" in previous skill system...
We have restrictions and diversity in H6, but for some reason some of you don't feel it is enough.
How do you measure diversification level to please you?
About skill shopping. If you were tell this to D&D RPG player, you would only hear, "Er, What??". This is how skill systems work.
Currently only half of the Realm skills are better suited for secondary heroes. But not all.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 26, 2011 07:36 PM |
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In order to keep a system allowing multiple choices interesting, you have to make them equally attractive (or at least the next best thing to equally attractive), otherwise the choice is reduced to which of the useful skills should be taken when the hero levels up and which of these useful skills are actually appropriate to select against the current opponent(s). And the perfect template is born.
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If they want to keep that skill/spell supermarket, they better make sure each skill is approximately as valuable as any other. Pathfinding is a good skill, there's a moderate amount of rough terrain usually. Navigation is a bad skill 90% of the case (or more). Just balance the damn skills. Make all skills interesting. Tweak the numbers where it makes sense, replace skills where there's fundamental design flaw (Logistics vs Snatch).
I think there is both something right and wrong in what you say. It is true that when some skills are universally better than all others, the system is broken. One such example is the (level 1, lols) Heal spell. There is hardly any game design where the ability to Resurrect your troops right from the beginning of the game will not be an advantage, and what is worse, a pretty much bigger advantage than any other skill you can immediately get access to. Clearly that ruins the point of the system, because you will pick "Heal" every time.
However, we have to distinguish between skills that are universally superior, and then skills that are universally applicable, when compared to skills that are very situational. It is true that a skill like Logistics is pretty much universally applicable: There is hardly a game where it will not be a benefit to gain extra movement points. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Logistics skill is broken - in fact, if the movement bonus is only marginal (as is in fact the case here, perhaps for the first time in Heroes history*), the skill is useful but not a gamebreaker.
Let's then take a skill like Navigation. It's true that in 90 % - and make that even 95 % - of the games, Navigation is not really worth it: You simply don't spend that much time on sea, and it doesn't even negate the boarding/unboarding bonus, which would actually have made it much more universally attractive. Anyway, I digress, the point is that there ARE 10 % - or 5 % - of the games where Navigation is highly useful, in fact it might even win you the game because the bonus you get from Navigation is huge (like +100 % movement, lols).
So does that make Navigation a bad skill as in one that shouldn't be there? No, I don't think so. As long as there are no other skill depending on you having Navigation, the skill is perfectly fine as it is: Take it if it's useful, or leave it otherwise. And the most important point here is: As long as there is a free choice, it's ok for some skills to be (highly) situational, and the more situational a skill is, the higher the output should be - and conversely, the more universal a skill is, the lower the output should be - or the more restricted the access should be. There was a reason that Resurrection was a level 4 or 5 spell in previous games, go figure.
On a sidenote her, notice how wisely the Heroes 5 skill system was crafted: All the skills were universal, whereas many of the perks were situational. This was a very clever design, because it ment that you could learn the skill, and then choose the perks that fitted for your situation. This is also why I didn't really see a problem with the skills being offered by chance - even if you didn't get the skills you wanted, chances were that you would get something useful out of what you got anyway (and like someone put it beautifully above, sometimes chance would open an entirely new door for you, which could be very refreshing!). Perks, on the other hand, should not be chance based but should be chosen freely, for two reasons: First off, many perks were situational, and secondly, many synergy effects depended on you getting the correct perks, hence a wrong perk (even if useful) could completely ruin your built. But alas, that was Heroes 5 skill system.
So if I should make a conclusion on this wall of text (sorry), I guess it is that all skills doesn't have to be equally good in all situations, as long as none of them are universally better (by which I mean better in ALL situations).
* I couldn't help but find it slightly amasung how veterans always cried IMBA! on the Logistics skill, and then when the beta came out, people were like "Waaah, Logistics only adds 3 movement points, that totally sucks". Tough croud! 
@Gweret:
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In previous Heroes it was also possible. Every one known what to get.
You had two options:
(stupid skill or skill you like), skill you own but with "lower level".
You pick lower level, because you do not want stupid skill.
If you are unlucky you will take stupid skill.
I simply don't think that was really the case in Heroes 5. Name me one skill in Heroes 5 that was really bad? I think it's fair to say that all the skills in Heroes 5 were useful, and in almost all of those cases where one of them really didn't fit your faction, guess what, it also had a very low chance of appearing. Like Summoning Magic for Knight - it sucked, because you had no Spellpower and no Summoning spells, but it also had like a 2 % chance of popping up, so even if it should come up, there would always be an alternative choice.
About the perks - yes, there were many times where the right perk didn't show up, particularly Destructive > Master Of Fire was an example of a real nightmare, because there were 3 advanced perks for some classes, and you always wanted to get the one that led to Ignite - but that's also why I've argued all the time that, given the continuation of the Heroes 5 system, one should have made it so that perks (but not skills) were chosen freely (once the skill was learned).
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 07:47 PM |
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Personally, I do not want Logistics in the game at all. Because I ALWAYS feel FORCED to take it along with Enlightenment, sure they may not be the best skills anymore but I still FEEL like ALL main heroes should have them.
Personally, I would have prefered H5s random system, only that you would ALWAYS be given atleast one useful skill or you could just pass on a level and get two skill points the next time you leveled up.
But obviously, that is not going to happen now.
So I think the best solutions is to move around and balance some skills such as the Economic ones (should require Level 5). Also, I do not think that once you reach level 5, you should be able to access ALL advanced skill.
My suggestion is that to spend points in Level 2 Light Magic or Level 2 Realm Skills, then you have to spend atleast 2 skill points on level 1 skills in those trees.
So if I want the level 3 Light spell "Blind", then I would have been forced to spend atleast 2 Skill points in Level 1 Light spells and 2 Skill points in Level 2 Light spells.
That would fix the "supermarket" system we have now and apply both to Might and Magic skills. 2 points is also not much so you aren't forced to spend points on skills that you really, really do not want.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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tabachanker
Hired Hero
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posted October 26, 2011 09:06 PM |
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I really have a hard time liking the new choose your own skills feature. Lots of people in this thread already made the point that heroes lost their identities and there will be only a handful of builds worth in each game. But I think the thing that suffered the most from this is the adventure map.
Now that skills are chosen by the player, there's no need for universities or witch huts on the adventure map.
Now that spells are skills chosen by the player, there's no need for shrines on the adventure map.
Couple that with some other decisions (like only 4 resources, no specific creature generators, mines linked to a fort, etc.), this make for very boring adventure maps.
Anyway, since there is no way Black Hole will change this game mechanic, I think Alcibiades' solution on the 1st page is a good compromise. I would add though that the general skills like "Light Magic I" would give, with the opening of the other skills in this school, something more in return, like a basic spell (magic arrow, slow, bless, etc.). That way, you wouldn't have the impression of losing an ability point. The "--- II" and "--- III" general skills could give more potent spells (like lightning bolt, fire ball, etc.). All that depending on the school (air = lightning bolt, light = heal, dark = curse, etc.).
As for the adventure map, there's a couple of options they could do to spruce them up a bit. To replace spell shrines that gave permanent spells, they could add a building that hands out one free spell scroll each week. And to be even more similar to the old shrines, it could always give the same spell. Instead of universities or witch huts, there could be buildings that give an ability point only once per map. The last one should be tested thoroughly because it could potentially unbalance the whole game.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 26, 2011 09:14 PM |
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I think your concerns about the adventure map is very true, but actually there is nothing to prevent them from making witch huts that just give a random skill - in fact, since you can now learn unlimited number of skills and spells, such huts are more relevant than ever, because they would just give you a bonus skill (which might be useful or not, but who cares, it's for free).
Also, something I really miss on the adventure map is the skill altars from Heroes IV, those were a great addition to the game!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 26, 2011 09:15 PM |
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To replace spell shrines that gave permanent spells, they could add a building that hands out one free spell scroll each week.
I like this idea, a lot. However, it should be chosen carefully, because if it's a useful spell, all Heroes will already have it, while if it's useless, no one will bother getting it.
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