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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: Heroes 6 skill system - oppinions and suggestions for improvement
Thread: Heroes 6 skill system - oppinions and suggestions for improvement [ This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 (5) ]
esvath
esvath


Known Hero
posted October 28, 2011 08:53 AM

Quote:
No, old system, even tho when you finished the longer game you had similar builds with same castles, was giving you different early game almost every time. Unless you started with war machines(and you didnt care about the skill order since it didnt have any difference for you because WM were enough to kill everything) you had to work with what you were given. Now you take what you need to kill neutrals and you are set to go, before you couldnt just take those skills asap and sometimes you had to go around it somehow either killing neutrals some other way than you planned or leave them altogether to avoid losing army. The order which you were given was different every time. You had to add the fact that you couldnt take every skill you wanted at any given time so that you dont open too many trees and put yourself in bad position as i mentioned above. All this was a strategy and now its all gone. Thats my fear for this part, doing exactly same thing early game will become boring quickly.


Hear, hear!

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forest001
forest001


Known Hero
posted October 28, 2011 09:02 AM

@feluniozbunio

yeh, you may be quite right, but how different is it to previews, either you are dungeon and you can creep like mad with no troops at all or you are say sylvan and you go through creeping hell in 90% of situations.

ultimately right now the biggest difference lies in the creatures not the hero, at least at the beginning

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 28, 2011 09:54 AM

For me its not about heroes being different, but the fact that you are doing same things with very few elements changed when compared to previous parts. Things were more divesified, now not so much, thats my only problem really. I dont mind current system that much , i just think it will become boring soon.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted October 28, 2011 11:24 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 11:25, 28 Oct 2011.

Quote:
Totally not true. Maybe you didn't know how the system worked. I had my planned build in about 90% of my games. Its really hard to miss a skill that comes most often xx times in a row, unless you planned having war machines for sylvan ofc... If you took too many skills and then you were flooded with all the new perks from each tree then you hurt yourself, dont blame the system.
It's not a bad idea to think a while about what you are being told before saying something bombastic. While it is true that you will most likely be offered what you need sooner or later, it is no less true that you will most likely NOT get it when you want it. You need Dark Magic but the algorithm offers you Defense and Luck or some other combo for several consecutive level ups. You can wait of course but if the opponent has received what he needs and manages to find you, then you are in disadvantage, no matter your "good planning". So it's ultimately much more random than it currently is at the expense of the strategical approach. Q.E.D.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 28, 2011 11:30 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 11:31, 28 Oct 2011.

Its random but its not at any expenes, just random. Sometimes you get lucky sometimes you dont. Good players can overcome being unlucky and win more often then bad players. Now you have less randomization good players will win more often, bad players will win less often and will be less inclined to play again. Good players will be bored of doing same winning strategy over and over again and will be less inclined to play again because why change strategy from good to worse?

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted October 28, 2011 12:14 PM

I think that's the whole point - to keep the current system as it is, i.e. based on free choice, but to remove the artificial limits imposed by the large gap between the efficiency of the skills. Re-balancing them, adding faction-specific skills and eventually changing the way you "buy" a new skill when the hero levels up might do the trick.

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odium
odium


Known Hero
posted October 28, 2011 04:58 PM

Like it was stated several times along this thread, within the current framework (no randomness in skills with pretty small trees, not many prerequisites aside from level) the only way to make the game less boring and more strategical is to modify the less efficient skills (which contrary to what some might argue I also find them to be many) and bring them as close as possible to the other skills. In particular, on the might side I find more of the same pattern for heroes. Maybe we could start a constructive discussion on the might abilities to see how can we reduce the difference between abilities.

First of all, I believe that there is a problem with the current categorization of  skills. While the magic abilities have a logical pattern, for the might abilities there is a conglomerate of ablities which are actually non-magic and are simply labeled might. Many of these abilities are not related at all to might. Therefore, I believe that creating another category (support abilities, world abilities or whatever name) will bring more logic.

Might should not include:
From the paragon branch Diplomat, Enlightment, Mentoring, Logistics, Snatch, Pathfinding which are not related whatsoever with might and they can be part of the support abilities.

Realm: all realm skills have nothing to do with might.


So, if we were to make a structured assessment and optimization of the skills we will need to touch at least the following points in this order:

1. Decide which are good examples of level 1 skills, level 5 skills and level 15 skills. Since there is a big discrepancy between them we need to decide what should be the standard in terms of power.

2. Afterwards we should take the current abilities from the tree and try to figure if a certain ability corresponds in terms of power to the standard we've chosen at the previous point.

Now, to take things in order, I would say that good standards for their levels are:

1st lvl skill: Archery I
5th lvl skill: Evasive Maneuvers
15th lvl skill: Heroic Charge







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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 29, 2011 11:13 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 11:14, 29 Oct 2011.

Quote:


mages spells are more powerful, even when cast with the same spellpower

Make a might hero and a magic hero with same path and rightclick on a shout, they have different values. You cant check the spells the same way because might and magic heroes have different spellpower (so its obviously different) I assume the rule is the same for magic otherwise warriors>mages


I was wrong. I just tested it and it seems that shouts scale with hero attack. That explains the difference.

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fraudatio
fraudatio


Famous Hero
posted October 30, 2011 05:33 AM

Quote:
Quote:
No, old system, even tho when you finished the longer game you had similar builds with same castles, was giving you different early game almost every time. Unless you started with war machines(and you didnt care about the skill order since it didnt have any difference for you because WM were enough to kill everything) you had to work with what you were given. Now you take what you need to kill neutrals and you are set to go, before you couldnt just take those skills asap and sometimes you had to go around it somehow either killing neutrals some other way than you planned or leave them altogether to avoid losing army. The order which you were given was different every time. You had to add the fact that you couldnt take every skill you wanted at any given time so that you dont open too many trees and put yourself in bad position as i mentioned above. All this was a strategy and now its all gone. Thats my fear for this part, doing exactly same thing early game will become boring quickly.


Hear, hear!


HEAR HEAR HEAR HEAR!

I am happy that its not only me, gives me some faint hope. I completely agree with many of you. My fear for the first time when i heard about the "free picking of skills" system was that one would greatly reduse multiplayer replayability, and i fear thats exactly what happens. There will be one or two "best" strategie and skill developements for every faction, and every time one has to chose that to compete. Creeping will be the same every time etc. In a perfect world, with complete balance, it would be acceptable, cause one or two strategies wouldnt win i all.

The H5 system made improvising and adapting to situation an artform, and i loved it. I "never" had same build twice, took things as they came, and no final battle was the same.

This is a great shame, because the game seems to have a lot of other aspects which are great. It is fun to play, and as long as the right people i hope and think that i will continue to play.

AhHHH, mixed emotions, joy and disappointment

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Damian777
Damian777


Hired Hero
posted October 30, 2011 09:44 AM

IMO this system is good. ^

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