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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: Heroes 6 skill system - oppinions and suggestions for improvement
Thread: Heroes 6 skill system - oppinions and suggestions for improvement This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 26, 2011 10:24 PM

Okay, this is my idea on how to change the Skill system in General and the Might skills (plus some balancing).



Just like now, there are three Skill tiers.
The first at level 1, the second unlocks at level 5 and the third at level 10.

In order to progress to the next Skill tier, the Hero must spend atleast 2 Points in the previous tier of the same skill category.

So for instance, if I am level 2 Necromancer and want to get the Tier 2 Earth skill Mass Stone Skin, then I have to reach level 5 and spend 2 Skill points in the Tier 1 of the Earth magic tree.

I feel that this is the best way to help prevent a supermarket type of skill tree while still not forcing players to take skills that they really do not want.

Now here is how I would change the Might trees.


Paragon
The Paragon tree is mainly about the stats of your Heroes. As a result, I feel that it makes sense to move Arcane Exaltation (Magic power/mana) and Arcane Ward (Magic Defense/mana, very useful for Might heroes) to the Paragon tree.

- Arcane Exaltation and Arcane Ward has been moved to Paragon.
- Pathfinding, Diplomacy, Enlightenment, Logistics, Snatch and Mentoring have been moved to Realm.

Realm
I do not like the creation of lvl 1 heroes that pick obvious skills such as Architect 1. I do not like skills that force you to stay in your town instead of exploring. I want Realm to be a good tree to both main and secondary Heroes.

- Architect 1 has been removed.
- Architect 2 is now Architect 1 but still at Tier 2. Architect 3 is now Architect 2 but still at Tier 3. The new Architect 2 now has a 3 turn cooldown. The Hero no longer needs to be in a town for these Skills to have an effect, instead these Skills will affect the town within the Control Area that the Hero is currently located in.

Architect 1 was a boring non-brainer skill. I do not like skills that encourage you to park in a town window. Architect 2 (3) became to powerful without the requirement of having to be in a town, so I gave it a cooldown.


- Economist 1 is now called Resourcfulness and now leads up to Snatch, which has been moved from Paragon to Tier 2 Realm.
- Economist 2 is now Economist 1 at Tier . Economist 3 is now Economist 2 and is now Tier 2. It has been changed from +1 ore and wood per day to +1 resource from all mines in the Control area that the Hero is located in.

+1 wood and ore seemed weak and boring for a Tier 3 skill. I found +1 Mine production to be a little bit more strategic and fun. Economist 1 ties very well into Snatch, so I renamed it and made it become indepedant from the other Economist skills which did not relate to it.

- Logistics has been moved to Realm and has been merged with Scouting. In addition to its current effects, Scouting 1 now increases movement speed by 2, Scouting 2 by 4 and Scouting 3 by 6.
- Pathfinding, Diplomacy and Enlightenment are now Tier 1 Realm skills.  Enlightenment leads up to Mentoring, which is now a Tier 3 Realm skill.

- Scouting felt like a weak skill, and Logistics is nowhere as good as it once was. It made sense to combine them.


Tactics
- Duck and Cover now makes your creatures use covers 20% more efficently, up from 13%.
- All Heroes now start with the old Tactics I. Tactics 2 is now only called Tactics, and is a Tier 1 Skill.
- Siege Master 1 now increases the damage dealt by Catapults by 4, up from 3.
- Siege Master 2 has been removed and replaced with the old Siege Master 3.                            
- The new Siege Master 3 now grants manual control over the Catapult.

I want to encourage people to use covers more often for a more strategic gameplay. I hate it that not all Heroes have Tactics and it's something that I really wish for Black Hole to change ASAP.
The siege talents felt weak and pointless and needed a buff. Manual Catapult is an obvious one, and ties nicely into the old Catapult 3.



Warcries
- There is now a new Warcry 1-3 Skill called Warcry Mastery, it increases the Might power of Warcries by 3 for each rank.

- Evasive Manuers has been changed to make a single creature immune to all attacks for X turns (highly dependant on Might power)

I think it makes sense that Warcries also should have a +Power skill. Some of them seem pretty weak when compared to some spells. Compare Stone skin with Stand Your Ground.
I feel that Evasive Manuvers was boring and a bit weak. This version is more interesting, they can just copy the Haven racial for it.



Warfare

- Archery 3 now once again removes ranged penalty.

Should not be overpowered with the new proposed skill system. I mean its -30% range penalty now and that sucks for a Tier 3 skill.

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tabachanker
tabachanker


Hired Hero
posted October 26, 2011 10:27 PM
Edited by tabachanker at 22:30, 26 Oct 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
To replace spell shrines that gave permanent spells, they could add a building that hands out one free spell scroll each week.


I like this idea, a lot. However, it should be chosen carefully, because if it's a useful spell, all Heroes will already have it, while if it's useless, no one will bother getting it.


I find scrolls really helpful even if I already have the spell.  For example, in my current Sanctuary campaign, I chose the spell "Teleport" since attacking a castle with Sanctuary is an exercise in patience!  But the spell cost like 50 mana or so.  When one teleport scroll appeared in my castle for 750 gold, I bought it even though I had the spell, so I'd be able to cast teleport even if I'm out of mana.

Also, if you see such a shrine early on and it distributes a good spell, you could decide to bypass the skill entirely since you'll have easily accessible scrolls for this spell (you could accumulate the scrolls each week if you didn't use them).
____________

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 26, 2011 11:02 PM

What i wanted to see in h6 was: homm 5 skill system, same primary skills ( att, def, light etc), BUT different perks for all factions.
Say 100 compleately original perks for each  faction.

Now i dont have heroes VI and im quite happy about that. I was going to buy it, but after playing the demo decided to wait. Imo these guys must learn that u dont make money just from the name, sooner or later its not enough.

Also what i like in heroes games is the atmoshere - and both ubi games ( homm 5 and 6 ) lack it. Right now i dont feel i care about heroes development, i dont feel exited to see the new stuff ( patches expansions etc) and im not even angry with ubi ( i was, when i played homm 5 almost every day ). The worst part is that i dont feel sad about all that, but relieved.

Anyways, if ubi adds some uniqueness to homm 6, i may buy it and start playing again. Restrictions are nessesery, otherwise u feel like u are in a world that cannot exist ( say makes no sense). Imo the whole skill system should be reworked and what Cepheus says is the right start, but its still far from enough...

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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 26, 2011 11:12 PM
Edited by Nocturnal at 23:35, 26 Oct 2011.

Altough I like the game, disregarding its bugs as they will be fixed eventually, skill system is an aspect I really hate. I loved the skill system in Heroes 5 but I hated its randomness and the factor of chance. So, my ideal skill system would be like Heroes 5, you can just pick 5 skills and 3 abilities from each of them, but in each level up, instead of 4 random skills, you could choose the one you want from the whole tree. You wouldn't have to wait for something to come, you would just get it.

I find the might skills incredibly banale. All of them are "gives x increase to one of the stats of the unit." This people have made skills like Flaming Arrows, Imbue Ballista, Retribution, Ignite, Herald Of Death, Soulfire, Banish, Elemental Balance, etc. The Racial abilities were also much more strategical and much more interesting.

Also, I don't like the spells. Destruction spells are too weak and spells overall are few and boring. I miss interesting spells like Fire Trap, Vampirism, Decay, Phantom Forces, Arcane Armor, etc. I also feel the absence of Summon Creatures very much.

As I said, I like the game. But never in this universe, no matter how many patches they release, will this game be better than TotE.

I doubt they will make any changes to the skill system. At least 6 months of them will be occupied with fixing the bugs and Town Screens. I would also like to know if we are heard, if any of the mods have contact with the devs. As we have found many bugs and we are a really clever forum about this game and touch good points.
____________

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Gweret
Gweret


Adventuring Hero
posted October 26, 2011 11:30 PM

@Alciblades
Quote:
Name me one skill in Heroes 5 that was really bad?

It depends what do you mean by writing *really* bad.

If I had "freedom" in Heroes V, I would rather not choose:
Estates, Last Stand, Death March, Elemental Balance( is too situational ), First Aid, Navigation, Scholar, Runic Machines, Tear of Asha Vision, Dead Man's Curse, Power of Endurance.

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lichking012
lichking012


Known Hero
posted October 27, 2011 12:05 AM

Personally don't get all of the heralding of the heroes V skills system. The system would be far worse for general builds if you could select skills. There was no variation in might and magic classes, no reputation system and every hero basically built itself the same way in each faction.

In heroes 6 we have 4 completely situational builds per faction, each class, and each reputation requires a different "build" for each faction. Plus secondary heroes build differently depending on what they are for, scouting or army building etc.

A revised might system could work, but not giving a faction access to one of thoose schools would be too damaging i think. Not having access to warcries for a might hero would be devastating for instance.

Finer details definitely need to be worked though. The warmachine skill needs a serious revamp, and I definitely, agree that giving an extra ability point every two or 3 levels would help fill out what is currently a rather empty ability/spell book. Unique skills for each faction could be good if they are truely interesting and unique. But if they are pretty general i don't see why they shouldn't be made available to everyone.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 27, 2011 12:20 AM

I just wanted to note that there is no need for more activated skills really. Most of the skills/spells have cooldown and you basically cast 3 different shouts/spells  over and over(+ some one timers) You can cast only so much during battle. This means if new skills were to be introduced they should be mostly pasive or situational.

For example. I had one game where my opponent came scouting with a hero with 7 stacks of 1 skeleton with high lvl hero hoping to hit and run my army with spells and deal much more damage. So i made a secondary hero with this air spell that deals some very small amount of damage to all opponents shooters and killed all his troops before he got to act. I never really considered using this spell before but when i realized it will be perfect, it was best counter for that situation.

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esvath
esvath


Known Hero
posted October 27, 2011 03:02 AM

Quote:

In heroes 6 we have 4 completely situational builds per faction, each class, and each reputation requires a different "build" for each faction. Plus secondary heroes build differently depending on what they are for, scouting or army building etc.  


/rant

Heroes V system might not be a perfect one, but it has some potentials. One of them is forcing (yes, forcing) the players to use different builds and adapt by introducing randomness, heroes start with two skills, and very different skills to select.

On the other hand, Heroes VI remove all of those aspects and introduce an (almost) generic skills to select. The only things that make heroes different at present are : a) hero specialization (which also exist in Heroes III and V); b) faction specific ability (which also exist in Heroes V, and possess more uniqueness than in VI, which essentially Heal, Heal 2 (renamed as Necromancy), Combat Buff (Blood Rage), Combat Buff 2 (renamed as Honor), and Gating). c) Blood and Tears path, which is a GREAT innovation in Heroes series.

Even Might and Magic classes are irrelevant for heroes build because of the generic skills. I WILL pick Reinforcement/Toughness/Archery for Might and Magic heroes, just as I WILL pick Regen/Heal/Life Drain for Might and Magic heroes.

Even the innovation of Blood and Tears was infected with this sameness. Both Word of Light (Haven Magic Blood 2) and Divine Intervention (Haven Magic Tears 2) do the same effect : heal your allies and/or damage enemy undead/demons/orcs. The difference is Word of Light deals lower damage and lower heal but to all stacks, while Divine Intervention deals higher damage OR heal to one stack. The difference is almost a hair-split here, for an ultimate ability of two divergent paths.

Most of Tears/Blood 2 abilities deals damage and/or heal, so that raise the question of similarity between skills into another level. For example, Curse of the Netherworld (Necro Magic Blood 2) also deals (dark) damage (to living units) and heal (undead units). Almost similar to the Cleric's.

Why can't the developer give us more interesting ultimate abilities? Summon Spectral Dragon (once per battle) will be an exciting (and different) skill to have! Or, why put all ultimate skills into combat? Why don't they create something like Heroes V Wizard's ability to tinker with artifacts? While creating mini-artifact inevitably help creatures in combat, the Wizard did it OUTSIDE of the combat screen. While mini-artifact and rune magic both affect combat ability and cost resources, one was activated outside combat, while the other inside combat, making the two skills distinct enough.

[But then, UbiHole wanted to cut non-combat portion of Heroes... so their decision was legit in their minds )

This sameness lead to repetitive and boring battle (which can be solved with Quick Combat), but then what should I do in game? No more kingdom management, no more adventure in the world, no more in-depth battle. All left are watching the graphic and listening to the (GREAT!) music

/end rant

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 27, 2011 05:35 AM
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 05:45, 27 Oct 2011.

Quote:
...If I had "freedom" in Heroes V, I would rather not choose:
Estates, Last Stand, Death March, Elemental Balance( is too situational ), First Aid, Navigation, Scholar, Runic Machines, Tear of Asha Vision, Dead Man's Curse, Power of Endurance.
LMAO if you think all those are bad skills in H5 (only navigation & tear of asha are no good in nearly every case, and power of endurance is an exceptionally good skill).

In reply to some people thinking about same skill every game in H6, isn't it a bit premature to say "I will choose skill a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h...p" when one is a casual/amateur player and not every facet of the game has been explored/exposed? and the maps provided so far may not be the best & there are no multi-creature creeps???

If you think you know optimal build for one faction vs each individual faction after game out only 14 days...well

(I am not a pro but am open-minded about strategies I do not know yet)

I think we are right to argue that the skill trees should be better and it will be eventually...just like H5 skill system was better after two expansions

@Xerox, you need to read more about Architect I skill or actually test it in a game...I already wrote about it elsewhere & at this time, it works only if you have external creature dwellings like barracks/keep that are NOT in town & it does not require hero to be in town, just in the relevant area of control
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 27, 2011 06:36 AM

Quote:
Personally, I do not want Logistics in the game at all. Because I ALWAYS feel FORCED to take it along with Enlightenment, sure they may not be the best skills anymore but I still FEEL like ALL main heroes should have them.



That's a no-brainer skill. Skills like that kill choice. The opposite of that is a very bad skill, it appears that Siege Master is currently such a thing.

Ironically, if you want to play a game without Logistics, you can play Heroes 1. The DOS version runs just fine in Dosbox emulator (but DOS version has no map editor). Heroes move at the same speed, influenced by slowest troop in the army. Barbarians move as if they had adv. Pathfinding, Sorceresses as if they had adv. Navigation, Warlocks have +2 to vision range, Knights have +2 morale. That's it.
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 27, 2011 07:23 AM

Quote:
@Alciblades
Quote:
Name me one skill in Heroes 5 that was really bad?

It depends what do you mean by writing *really* bad.

If I had "freedom" in Heroes V, I would rather not choose:
Estates, Last Stand, Death March, Elemental Balance( is too situational ), First Aid, Navigation, Scholar, Runic Machines, Tear of Asha Vision, Dead Man's Curse, Power of Endurance.
Neither of those are skills, those are all perks (or abilities, i.e. those that lie within the skills (Light Magic, Logistics, Luck, etc.).

Which was why I was very specific on the point that it was a huge weakness of H5 system that you did not choose perks freely because those are, indeed, very situational.

Having a Heroes 5 system with free pick would not work at all, because some perk combos are very powerful (think Imbue Tripple Ballista with Expert Destructive Magic, if you ever tried that, and that was even before High Druids!) - that was balanced by very low skill chances (i.e. War Machines = 2% for Ranger). But you could have free picks of perks, so that once you do get War Machines, you could yourself pick the Ballista skill instead of ending up with Catapult or First Aid Tent because of bad luck.
____________
What will happen now?

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LichKing012
LichKing012


Known Hero
posted October 27, 2011 08:10 AM

Quote:
faction specific ability (which also exist in Heroes V, and possess more uniqueness than in VI, which essentially Heal, Heal 2 (renamed as Necromancy),
Guardian angel and Necromancy don't even function the same strategically, comparing the two doesn't make any sense.


Quote:
combat buff, and combat buff 2 (Honor)
These function completely differently too. I don't see whats wrong with having all of the faction abilities occur in battle with gauges. It's a logical system. Also, Knowing what builds up the meter is a key component to hero building. Luck is good for demons, Leadership for Haven.

Quote:
Even Might and Magic classes are irrelevant for heroes build because of the generic skills. I WILL pick Reinforcement/Toughness/Archery for Might and Magic heroes, just as I WILL pick Regen/Heal/Life Drain for Might and Magic heroes.

It does matter though. While you may pick some might skills as a magic hero and vice versa, that doesn't make the class distinction irrelevant. Your point distribution is different for each class and it effects how effective you are for each build, building a might hero with only spells doesn't work. Especially since you have no access to high level spells. Might heroes can have spells, but can't use too many. War Cries counterbalance this a bit. Might heroes have stronger hero attacks and have access to war cries really worth getting, like cleave.  
Quote:
Even the innovation of Blood and Tears was infected with this sameness. Both Word of Light (Haven Magic Blood 2) and Divine Intervention (Haven Magic Tears 2) do the same effect : heal your allies and/or damage enemy undead/demons/orcs. The difference is Word of Light deals lower damage and lower heal but to all stacks, while Divine Intervention deals higher damage OR heal to one stack. The difference is almost a hair-split here, for an ultimate ability of two divergent paths.
While this is not the best example, even here there is a clear difference between the effectiveness of a mass heal/damage and a massive amount of damage or heal for the other.

Quote:
Most of Tears/Blood 2 abilities deals damage and/or heal, so that raise the question of similarity between skills into another level. For example, Curse of the Netherworld (Necro Magic Blood 2) also deals (dark) damage (to living units) and heal (undead units). Almost similar to the Cleric's.
So having multifaceted abilities is bad? While some tear ults do damage its ussually a counter attack or something to that effect.

Quote:
Why can't the developer give us more interesting ultimate abilities? Summon Spectral Dragon (once per battle) will be an exciting (and different) skill to have! Or, why put all ultimate skills into combat?
We have things like the Abysmal Worm, and Summon elemental spells. Could we have more? definitely. That being said, I am definitely not displeased with the skills given, they all act differently, and are used differently strategically. Even Mass Spells and their counterparts are different. Mass haste is no longer just the "better" version of haste.

Quote:
Why don't they create something like Heroes V Wizard's ability to tinker with artifacts? While creating mini-artifact inevitably help creatures in combat, the Wizard did it OUTSIDE of the combat screen.While mini-artifact and rune magic both affect combat ability and cost resources, one was activated outside combat, while the other inside combat, making the two skills distinct enough.
personally, artifacter was one of my least favorite skills in Heroes 5. I only disliked Avenger more. It was confusing, impact was rather hard to notice, and rather useless early. Which completely played against academy's main rush strategy strategy. Generally though, I like the in combat battle skill approach, it makes faction abilities seem a lot more impactful, More so with factions like Haven then factions like Necropolis, but having an active representation of the faction ability is a major plus. I dwarf faction where you get to pick a rune when your gauge is full and even build faction buildings to gain access to say more first or second level runes could be cool. That being said, I couldn't see that working very well for a different faction.

Quote:
This sameness lead to repetitive and boring battle (which can be solved with Quick Combat), but then what should I do in game? No more kingdom management, no more adventure in the world, no more in-depth battle. All left are watching the graphic and listening to the (GREAT!) music
Personally I don't see how battles more repeatative. You have drastically different play styles depending on faction/class/path, you have far more creature abilities, and you have some of the best faction synergy the game has ever seen. I also don't get the gripes about exploration. There are still artifacts(lots of them), shrines, and quite a few different kinds of silos and Colosseum to visit on the adventure map. Mines aren't the only thing on the map. I see points on management, but i see it as different management more so than less management . When to convert, what to convert, what town portals to build where, when, they are rather resource intensive, What upgraded dwellings to buy, (keep in mind you can't easily restock at a fort if you have the upgrade).



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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted October 27, 2011 08:34 AM

Quote:
Perfect template. Ekhm. Currently I don't see perfect templates.
You don't? Let me help you with a few examples then:

A Might Hero will always or almost always take, the faction notwithstanding: Counterstrike I-III; Stand Your Ground + Mass Stand Your Ground; Logistics; Intimmidation; Ambush; Cleave.
Depending on the faction he/she will probably also pick Leadership I-III and/or Destiny I-III, some resurrection skill (Heal, Drain Life, Regeneration) for the early game and Dispel if accessible.
Each faction also have "favourite" skills and spells - Inner Fire works excellent with Stronghold and Inferno and will rarely be ignored, Retribution Aura (especially fully upgraded) is completely broken and thus the usual choice for every faction with access to Light Magic, Puppet Master is a must for mages with access to Dark Magic, etc.

You will NOT take, the faction notwithstanding: the catapult-boosting skills; the skills adding +1/+2/+3 Attack/Defense; Sabotage Mine and its cousins with your primary hero; Architect with your primary hero; direct-damage spells without additional effects (like freezing the target) when you are playing against a Magic hero or on a large map, etc.

These examples are not applicable to every possible situation, nor they are exhausting the possible builds but you should get the idea. The flaw of the old system was that it was offering skills you didn't need from time to time and you were occasionally forced to pick one or two of them. The flaw of the new system is that the internal balance between the skills is so imperfect that the free choice is actually not free at all because you will almost always stick to the best build if you want to be competitive. Variations are possible but within rather narrow limits and certain skills/spells become applicable only in strictly marginal scenarios - just like the "bad" skills which the previous system offered.


As for the Heroes V system - it was not completely random actually and that was one of its major flaws. Yes, that's right. Every faction was assigned skills and spell schools which would almost always end up offered when the hero leveled up and skills/spell schools which were very unlikely to ever show themselves BUT this allocation of the "probability percents" did not necessarily match every faction's needs. Sylvan with War Machines? Yeah, maybe, once in every 10 games or so (not that the bloody OP elves really needed them). Inferno and Light Magic? Same story - and even worse because Inferno doesn't have direct access to Light spells even if the hero learns the school.  At the same time Inferno gets offers for Destructive Magic very often while it can hardly utilize even half of its potential effectively due to the abysmal Spell Power of the hero. And so on. The perfect templates existed in this system as well, only that they were harder to execute properly due to the level up algorithms.

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esvath
esvath


Known Hero
posted October 27, 2011 09:48 AM

@lichking

Yes, Guardian Angel and Necromancy, War Cries and Honor, those are different skills, with different effects. But the pairs were not THAT different. The first pair prevent loses (GA by total invulnerability to one unit, while Necromancy by ressurecting fallen ones). The second buffing units in combat (WC by increasing offense, Honor by defense). The purposes are almost the same, the mechanisms are almost the same (moreover on using War Cries and Honor). I'm not talking about filling the gauge. That mechanic at least very different per faction and that's GOOD! I'm talking about the effect and how the skills is applied during gameplay.

If only we have Guardian Angel, Necromancy a la Heroes V (raising dead AFTER battle), War Cries, Gating and new mechanic for Honor, I won't complain that the faction specific skills are bland.

Quote:
Your point distribution is different for each class and it effects how effective you are for each build, building a might hero with only spells doesn't work. Especially since you have no access to high level spells. Might heroes can have spells, but can't use too many. War Cries counterbalance this a bit. Might heroes have stronger hero attacks and have access to war cries really worth getting, like cleave.


The problem is, I can not survive on Magic alone, or Might alone. I have to create some hybrid hero. And to make matter worse, this hybrid hero will have specific set of skills, just as Zenofex described above.

The distinction between Might and Magic classes are still there, yes I can see that. Each class starts with different basic ability, each heroes have different specialities. But that is not enough, imo. The skills themselves should contribute more to class distinction.

Again, using Heroes V, we can easily answer : who is the best spell caster? It's Warlock, then Wizard. In Heroes VI? Sorry, I can not differentiate the Magic classes.

Even Stronghold Might Hero can cast spells without any penalties AND have to take some spells just to stay alive. This is very different with Heroes V, where Stronghold hero can not cast any spells, and learn Shatter skills instead.


 
Quote:
While this is not the best example, even here there is a clear difference between the effectiveness of a mass heal/damage and a massive amount of damage or heal for the other.


It would be more distinct if Divine Intervention completely heals, while Word of Light destroy, right?

Quote:
So having multifaceted abilities is bad? While some tear ults do damage its ussually a counter attack or something to that effect.
 

Not bad, but too much of this will make the game bland, because the skills are overlapping each other.

Quote:
We have things like the Abysmal Worm, and Summon elemental spells. Could we have more? definitely. That being said, I am definitely not displeased with the skills given, they all act differently, and are used differently strategically. Even Mass Spells and their counterparts are different. Mass haste is no longer just the "better" version of haste.


Abysmal Worm is GOOD! It is good because there are no other feature (skils/buildings) which copy its effect AND it only available to Inferno. It will become another "meh" if all factions have its own version of Abysmal Worm with different names (Holy Prison for Haven, the Vortex for Sanctuary, something else for Stronghold, and yet another for Necropolis).

Unique buildings per faction are interesting because they are unique. I want more of this unique-ness in skills! I want more so that the unique-ness can really affect gameplay!

Summon Elementals will become another "meh" if each elementals are not different enough. Thank God we have enough differences between each elementals (although Light and Shadow are basically the same : strike-and-return+no retaliation. But at the very least, Light dispel spells!) It is something different, something which I can use strategically.

If only there are more like it in the game, and players make choices...


Quote:
...you have far more creature abilities, and you have some of the best faction synergy the game has ever seen.


There are some great new creature abilities, but there are some copy-paste/repeated abilities. For example, what is the difference between Battle Ready (Kenshi/Kensei) and Unlimited Retaliation (Hell Hound/Cerberus AND Griffins)? Between Daughters of the Sea (Mermaid) and Dead Flesh (Ghouls) and Liquid Body (Water Elemental)? All increase damage resist by 20%.

Again, there are too many similarities between one abilities and another. Yes, there are differences too. There are in fact great abilities, very innovative (such as Centaurs'), but if the copy abilities stay, they will make the game more bland.


Quote:
I see points on management, but i see it as different management more so than less management . When to convert, what to convert, what town portals to build where, when, they are rather resource intensive, What upgraded dwellings to buy, (keep in mind you can't easily restock at a fort if you have the upgrade).


I always convert the town asap, build town portals in every cities and upgrade all dwellings. I use fort only for town portal's destination, never recruited creature from it.

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LichKing012
LichKing012


Known Hero
posted October 27, 2011 10:06 AM
Edited by LichKing012 at 10:34, 27 Oct 2011.

Quote:
A Might Hero will always or almost always take, the faction notwithstanding: Counterstrike I-III; Stand Your Ground + Mass Stand Your Ground; Logistics; Intimmidation; Ambush; Cleave.
Depending on the faction he/she will probably also pick Leadership I-III and/or Destiny I-III, some resurrection skill (Heal, Drain Life, Regeneration) for the early game and Dispel if accessible.
Each faction also have "favourite" skills and spells - Inner Fire works excellent with Stronghold and Inferno and will rarely be ignored, Retribution Aura (especially fully upgraded) is completely broken and thus the usual choice for every faction with access to Light Magic, Puppet Master is a must for mages with access to Dark Magic, etc.
Even if end results are somewhat similar, there are like 70 skills and you get max of 30, the order you pick them varies. greatly. Tactics is really good for necropolis early. So much so that I'd recommend taking it early, really early. A heal spell is much less important in their case and somewhat in haven's case. It's not just the end result it's how you get there, and I think that that is distinctly different.

Also, A lot of skills really depend on your opponent and the map. Puppet master is useless against necro for instance, Dark spells in general don't do very much. A lot of fire spells are bad against inferno, Water is bad against sanctuary. On the might Side of things, The archery 2 is a much less effective skill depending on what faction your opponent is. The worth if enlightenment is totally dependent on how many secondary heroes you can buy/your resource situation. While there may be a general template, I don't think there is a definitive "this is how you win" way to build your hero.

Quote:
I'm talking about the effect and how the skills is applied during gameplay.
In each case, the effect is applied differently, while having sanctuary have a defensive buff and stronghold have a defensive buff is hardly new, (it clearly is a reference to Heroes 3 fortress and Stronghold), they still are applied quite differently, you don't use them the same way. Similarly, you don't use Guardian angel and Necromancy the same way. Also the problem with Necromancy after combat is that it's a rather boring passive. It's something that just happens. In heroes 6 we get 5 active engaging faction abilities.

Quote:
It would be more distinct if Divine Intervention completely heals, while Word of Light destroy, right?

It would be more two dimensional, the spells would do less, and Word of Light would be just like a another boring mass damaging spell. Some really cool distinct abilities include the Stronghold magic class ones, Not just the ultimates either, the advance class ones are pretty cool too.

Quote:
Not bad, but too much of this will make the game bland, because the skills are overlapping each other.
The Tears path isn't just "the path that always defends and runs away" skills like counter-strike and reinforcements are there for a reason for instance. While the Blood path is inarguably more aggressive, to say that the tears path has to be all defense all the time and can't include abilities that leech health, reflect attacks, or thinks like that is rather silly.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 27, 2011 12:16 PM

Quote:
There was a reason that Resurrection was a level 4 or 5 spell in previous games, go figure.


I can only judge from the manual, but actually, many of the level 1 spells seem equivalent to level 4-5 spells in previous Homms

and I guess some of the most powerful spells even make sanctuary or hypnotize from H4 look ridiculously underpowered?

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 27, 2011 12:28 PM

LichKing012 wrote:
Quote:
...Also, A lot of skills really depend on your opponent and the map...
I agree with this statement. and yep order which you take the skills is also important, not just end result ....& yep Tactics I nearly always so may even be no need to mention

Zenofex wrote:
Quote:
...The flaw of the new system is that the internal balance between the skills is so imperfect that the free choice is actually not free at all because you will almost always stick to the best build if you want to be competitive...
That's been same with other heroes games tho, not just H6.  And it wasn't too hard to get generally what you wanted most of the time (just not every single time)..[you're not supposed to get two or three x 2% skills!].

Quote:
...As for the Heroes V system - it was not completely random actually and that was one of its major flaws...
uh completely random???...

come on man, H5 was designed around balance (albeit at around 4-8weeks) between each faction with:
* specific stat distribution for each hero type, and
* skills/magic more suitable for some faction than others, and
* racials
[not every skill equally suitable for everyone and some too powerful in some circumstances => hence differing % chance appearing]
In some circumstances, wouldn't demons with high spellpower destructive, defence and gating be too powerful...or how about demons with empathy and gating and access to many light spells and enlightenment?

To have it completely random would have required something like:
* not every faction has access to all 12 skills, and
* introduction of more new balanced skills with associated perks specific for each faction, or else some factions would have less than 12 skills available

==> certainly a lot more work than just the 12 skills they ended up with!

anyway it does bring a point that maybe those H6 +stat skills and archery could do with a boost since each stat is now closer to 2.5% difference as opposed to 5% that was in previous HoMM games.

I know many of you know much more than me because I would never think H5TotE sylvan is optimal with warmachines
____________
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too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 27, 2011 01:33 PM

Quote:
At the same time Inferno gets offers for Destructive Magic very often while it can hardly utilize even half of its potential effectively due to the abysmal Spell Power of the hero.
Arguably, putting Destructive Magic at 10 % (!) for Demon Lord is what I will descripe as a direct error in the Heroes 5 skill distribution. It simply doesnt make sense, for a number of reasons: First of all, Demon Lord was a might class, so it didn't need two magic skills at 8+ % (having Dark Magic at 8 % was perfectly fine). Second, the skill was absolutely and purely useless for the Demon Lord, and it seemed like a double slap in the face to have very useful skills like Enlightenment and Leadership placed at 2 % just to make room for it.

So yeah, that was a very bad point of the Heroes 5 skills, but nothing that couldn't be solved with a simple change of numbers. A Heroes 5 like system with dual classes (Might / Magic) would have been really sweet I think.
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What will happen now?

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Gweret
Gweret


Adventuring Hero
posted October 27, 2011 01:43 PM
Edited by Gweret at 18:05, 27 Oct 2011.

@alciblades
Quote:
Neither of those are skills, those are all perks (or abilities, i.e. those that lie within the skills (Light Magic, Logistics, Luck, etc.).

My definition of skill is a bit different. The thing you call a "skill" is only a skill which opens "skills" tree.
Have a look on Dragon Age 2 skill system, it is similar, you need to take skill to open whole tree.

I still prefer the freedom of choice, than randomness. Since, in my opinion, there are not many bad skills, at least nothing which can't be improved, I perceive this skill system design as superior to previous systems.


@Zenofex
Quote:
You don't? Let me help you with a few examples then:

Well you have listed good skills, some bad, and some with limited usability.
But there are more Good Skills than you listed. When I level, I don't have a feeling: "ok, now we are getting this, then this", rather I have feeling: "Oh, I would like to this to boost my realm, AH, but I need battle skills, so many useful to choose from".

Of course there are exceptions, some Realm skills, + catapult skills. Some skills are either weak or imbalanced. But, In my opinion, there are not many of them, as there were not many of them in H5.

Skills also depend on the map and faction, for ex. I would choose defense 1,2,3 with tear might stronghold hero, because they lack defense, but I would not choose heal, since it has too weak effect.

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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 27, 2011 03:36 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Perfect template. Ekhm. Currently I don't see perfect templates.
You don't? Let me help you with a few examples then:


The example skills you have listed are only your favourites I think. And because you see them necessary you think everyone else does. I have only picked 1 of the skills you have listed there and none of the others with my might hero, and he was devastating. I have picked on the other hand +1/+2/+3 Attack/Defense. And with my magic hero I have picked some direct-damage spells without additional effects, like lightning bolt, which does very good damage. Even better after you soak your enemy.

I see the game's flaws. I see the useless skills. I accept them. But a possibility of perfect templates is out of question and is not one of the flaws of the game.
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