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| Thread: Heroes 6 skill system - oppinions and suggestions for improvement |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 27, 2011 03:54 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 16:26, 27 Oct 2011.
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Even if end results are somewhat similar, there are like 70 skills and you get max of 30, the order you pick them varies. greatly. Tactics is really good for necropolis early. So much so that I'd recommend taking it early, really early. A heal spell is much less important in their case and somewhat in haven's case. It's not just the end result it's how you get there, and I think that that is distinctly different.
Oops, I forgot Tactics, yes. It's actually not a recommended but an obligatory skill and not should but MUST be taken early. That's hardly a "free choice".
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Also, A lot of skills really depend on your opponent and the map.
I have never denied this.
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While there may be a general template, I don't think there is a definitive "this is how you win" way to build your hero.
What I have described above is not a recipe for victory, nor it is the only possible build but I think I mentioned both of these things. The point is that there are skills which you will ALWAYS pick and skills which you will ignore in almost all scenarios. So in the end, you have, say, 100 skills in total but no more than 50 which you will ever pick.
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come on man, H5 was designed around balance (albeit at around 4-8weeks) between each faction with:
* specific stat distribution for each hero type, and
* skills/magic more suitable for some faction than others, and
* racials
[not every skill equally suitable for everyone and some too powerful in some circumstances => hence differing % chance appearing]
In some circumstances, wouldn't demons with high spellpower destructive, defence and gating be too powerful...or how about demons with empathy and gating and access to many light spells and enlightenment?
That's true but it is not what I'm talking about. Why would you give Inferno Destructive Magic which they almost can't use effectively and thus reduce their chance to get something which they actually need? If your point is that the factions ultimately turned up balanced with the given skill/stat points allocation, then I would agree if this was true. But even in TotE there were overpowered factions and outsiders .
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But there are more Good Skills than you listed. When I level, I don't have a feeling: "ok, now we are getting this, then this", rather I have feeling: "Oh, I would like to this to boost my realm, AH, but I need battle skills, so many useful to choose from".
There are skills which are useful, skills which are situational and skills which are almost completely useless. You will very rarely pick the last and you will almost always pick the first. That's the point. Hence the limits of the given "freedom" curently.
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The example skills you have listed are only your favourites I think.
Yeah, I'm exposed... 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 27, 2011 04:54 PM |
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@alciblades
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Neither of those are skills, those are all perks (or abilities, i.e. those that lie within the skills (Light Magic, Logistics, Luck, etc.).
My definition of skill is a bit different. The thing you call a "skill" is only a skill which opens "skills" tree.
Have a look on Dragon Age 2 skill system, it is similar, you need to take skill to open whole tree.
I still prefer the freedom of choice, than randomness. Since, in my opinion, there are not many bad skills, at least nothing which can be improved, I perceive this skill system design as superior to previous systems.
Semantics aside, the point I was trying to make is that if you had kept the old system and only made the "skill tree opening skills" chance based and made the others free to select, you would have reached a compromise where the old problem of being offered a bad skill and a horrible skill to choose from would be, if not completely eliminated, then something that would only happen in very marginal examples. But anyway, that's all "if" one had kept the old system, which they didn't, for better and for worse.
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What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 27, 2011 06:42 PM |
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Even Stronghold Might Hero can cast spells without any penalties AND have to take some spells just to stay alive
Not true:
a)mages spells are more powerful, even when cast with the same spellpower.
b)barbs dont need spells at all, they dont even need heal to creep really.
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Personally, I do not want Logistics in the game at all. Because I ALWAYS feel FORCED to take it along with Enlightenment, sure they may not be the best skills anymore but I still FEEL like ALL main heroes should have them.
You might feel that way but it doesnt mean you are doing the right thing taking it all the time. If you play small map on a standard hero lvlup speed you will be fighting your opponent on lvl 6 or so. If you take 2 skills that are completly useless during fight you will be at quite disadvantage considering you will not have much time to make use of logistics and enlightenment. Even on big maps you have to choose wheather you want to get it asap or not, getting it asap means you will have more losses during early fights. So it has the difference when you take them.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 27, 2011 06:51 PM |
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There's just (usually) very little strategic value in skills such as Logistics and Enlightenment. I don't really see the point in including skills like that from the start, unless it's some kind of fan service because they are "classic" skills...
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted October 27, 2011 07:02 PM |
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Even Stronghold Might Hero can cast spells without any penalties AND have to take some spells just to stay alive
Not true:
a)mages spells are more powerful, even when cast with the same spellpower.
b)barbs dont need spells at all, they dont even need heal to creep really.
a) I never notice the differences between Might and Magic heroes' spells when right-clicking it. Where can I see the differences? That would be great!
b) How can Stronghold survive without Drain Life and Regen?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 27, 2011 07:07 PM |
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a) Make a might hero and a magic hero with same path and rightclick on a shout, they have different values. You cant check the spells the same way because might and magic heroes have different spellpower (so its obviously different) I assume the rule is the same for magic otherwise warriors>mages.
b) Easy, first week is little tough but having heal doesnt help much since you have very limited mana. After that you just roll over anything no problem, ill soon make a guide for barbs. I played couple games and after couple heals casted in week 1-2 i havent casted single spell during game and won every one of them.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 27, 2011 07:59 PM |
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There's just (usually) very little strategic value in skills such as Logistics and Enlightenment. I don't really see the point in including skills like that from the start, unless it's some kind of fan service because they are "classic" skills...
Personally, I get Logistics as one of the early skills; the few extra movement points and the Snatch skill that comes after it means I can cover that much ground extra, collect more treasures and experience in a given time and maybe catch that enemy Hero that got too close for comfort. Also keep in mind that Town Portal spells take off a huge chunk of your movement points, so having a few extra is welcome.
I can agree on Enlightenment partially; in "unlimited" maps, it might be useful. In maps with a level limit, it's of substantially less use. But even when you take it, there's a cut-off point somewhere. Essentially, you're giving up 1 talent in order to gain everything after it faster. I didn't do the math at which level it cuts even, after which it becomes beneficial to have it. Of course, the later you take it, the less beneficial it will be.
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lichking012
Known Hero
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posted October 27, 2011 08:16 PM |
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Oops, I forgot Tactics, yes. It's actually not a recommended but an obligatory skill and not should but MUST be taken early. That's hardly a "free choice".
Depends on the faction. Tactics doesn't work well with haven at all for instance. Turtling cross bowmen does nothing but kill your units. It's not worth a wasted skill point period. For sanctuary with their buff and general lack of shooters, the skill is only marginally beneficial. Probably not worth it in exchange for something else. For Necro it is a God skill. It's pretty good for inferno and stronghold too. But in all of these cases WHEN you take is varies, and for each player WHEN you take it varies. I can guarantee you that my first 5 skills for a sanctuary magic hero are different than your first 5 skills. Do you go for water magic? Air magic? light Magic? Prime? focus on one and make it good? try and mix them up? What might skills to you prioritize? While there are definitely strategies that DON'T work, there is definitely more than one that does.
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There are skills which are useful, skills which are situational and skills which are almost completely useless. You will very rarely pick the last and you will almost always pick the first. That's the point. Hence the limits of the given "freedom" curently.
It's not just a balance of what you pick, there is the when factor as well, and these can be fundamentally different. Also, different skills are useful differently. Architect 2 is crazy useful if you have enlightenment on your main on a big map. The scouting skills are great for earlier game on small maps with secondary heroes, mine plundering messes your enemy up kinda bad. While there is a very sort list of skills that suck, ( catapult skill) and clearly need to be reworked, by and large while some work better with some factions than others, we have a situation where there are far more better skills available to factions than any other heroes game ever.
To say that oh, this skill is a must, this on isn't, isn't necessarily true. Different things work better on say a main hero, for instance I would generally shy away from a realm skills, except maybe some of the scouting type ones on small maps for resources, but secondaries can eat that stuff up. A bit into the game, give a secondary logistics, and a movement booster, and have it visit a bunch of shrines, level it up majorly, and give it enlightenment. Then teach some other heroes economy architect 1 & 2 and economy & 2, visiting some shrines as needed to level up and you have a sizable managment advantage right there. Or teach a hero one of the scouting perks to go and wreck your enemies supplies. It all depends on how you wanna play. Some skills are clearly meant for secondary heroes, but then again, I don't really see a problem with that.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 27, 2011 08:18 PM |
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Oops, I forgot Tactics, yes. It's actually not a recommended but an obligatory skill and not should but MUST be taken early. That's hardly a "free choice"
So lets see. You people want good skills but not so good that are so good that you would take it every time? I think people complain just to complain lol. The point of all those skills is that when you take some good skills you cant take others at the same time... geez not every game is a campaign game where you have lvl30 heroes and you take all the skills possible, and even in campaign you level up slowly and if you take logistics first you are left without fighting skills. Geez.
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Turtling cross bowmen does nothing but kill your units.
Did you play the game at all? Stacks touching crossbowmen are not hit by them. Its by no means wasted skill, its actually very powerful for haven since you can place you troops in the way that your pikemen defend most of other units and take damage for them.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted October 27, 2011 08:55 PM |
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So lets see. You people want good skills but not so good that are so good that you would take it every time? I think people complain just to complain lol...
It's a bit of a stretch to tar everyone with the same brush when only one poster in this thread thinks that...
I'm surprised anyone played haven without tactics but then again, those crossbowmen can run just as fast as those sun crusaders, griffins & angels
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 27, 2011 08:58 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:00, 27 Oct 2011.
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ou people want good skills but not so good that are so good that you would take it every time?
Do you really know what you want to say? And have you read my posts at all? Here's a short summary: some skills will almost always be picked; some skills will almost never be picked; ultimately a large number of the skills are there just to make the total number of skills look impressive while they have little or no strategic value. Geez.
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Turtling cross bowmen does nothing but kill your units. It's not worth a wasted skill point period.
Apparently you haven't tested it at all - the Marksmen won't kill anything adjacent to them when they shoot. And yes, Tactics is a must for every faction, you can afford not to take it only during the very early game, disregarding it later than that puts you in serious disadvantage.
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While there is a very sort list of skills that suck, ( catapult skill) and clearly need to be reworked, by and large while some work better with some factions than others, we have a situation where there are far more better skills available to factions than any other heroes game ever.
You are talking about marginal scenarios and I already mentioned that such cases exist. So what do you mean? I can say that Eagle Eye and Navigation had their uses in Heroes III as well. I have won a few games thanks to Mysticism, should I now proclaim that it's worth taking as much as Earth Magic or even that I won't pick Earth Magic but Mysticism if I'm given such choice?
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Some skills are clearly meant for secondary heroes, but then again, I don't really see a problem with that.
The problem is, as stated several times already, that in order to make use of certain skills, you have to use them in certain way. In other words - perfect template. I think that is one of the things addressed in the topic.
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lichking012
Known Hero
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posted October 27, 2011 09:47 PM |
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You are talking about marginal scenarios and I already mentioned that such cases exist. So what do you mean? I can say that Eagle Eye and Navigation had their uses in Heroes III as well. I have won a few games thanks to Mysticism, should I now proclaim that it's worth taking as much as Earth Magic or even that I won't pick Earth Magic but Mysticism if I'm given such choice?
Um that's not even comparable. Saying that taking puppet master is bad against Necropolis isn't a "marginal scenario". Playing off of your enemies strengths and weaknesses is not a marginal scenario.
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Apparently you haven't tested it at all - the Marksmen won't kill anything adjacent to them when they shoot. And yes, Tactics is a must for every faction, you can afford not to take it only during the very early game, disregarding it later than that puts you in serious disadvantage
The problem is if try and expand, you end up shooting yourself more than anything. Trying to protect your cross bowman is a pain. Plus with the defensive capabilities of Haven it's not really necessary anyways. You can basically spend the first turn moving everything worth moving around what you want to protect. It's not like your going to be charging with much right anyways. So shoot with shooters, charge with what little you wanna do that with, and fortify with the rest. Tactics isn't needed for haven. Plus you get a general idea of where everything is going to be anyways.
Put this aside I don't see why having a set of 5-10 core skills generally good for all Might heroes and some generally good for all magic heroes to pick at some point is bad. Some things are truly over powered, like that light magic skill I can't recall the name of, and some clearly worthless, catapult, and need to be fixed, but by and large, the system is good, it just needs some fine tuning.
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The problem is, as stated several times already, that in order to make use of certain skills, you have to use them in certain way. In other words - perfect template. I think that is one of the things addressed in the topic.
How is this any different than having ridiculous prerequisite for spells and abilities? The only difference I see is that you are no longer FORCED to do this as much. Sure it may be a good idea to specialize in one magic school and buff it up, a lot, but with boosts, but I don't NEED to, unlike in Heroes 5 where those were required to learn more complex skills.
Of course you have to use certain skills in a certain way. If you want to do something else, use a different skill. There are bunches of them. Having your heroes fit different roles, a trainer, a resource gatherer, a scout, doesn't take away variety it adds it. Creating small sets of skills that work well together, doesn't necessitate the creation of "templates", and even if it did, the game has such a wide variety of varied factors that that "template" is going to have to have serious variation from game to game. The counter balances between the factions is such that a great build against necropolis, or even a necropolis magic blood Hero, may not work well or at all against a Sanctuary might tears hero, or even a necropolis Magic Tears hero.
Assuming that's all lets say that's 20 "perfect" builds per hero class, one to counter each type of hero class, x 20 for each hero class. that's 400 "perfect" builds right there. Now some classes aren't THAT varied so the list is a bit inflated, but we aren't including other factors, map size, resource scarcity, water, terrain, amount of neutrals, amount of artifacts, amount of external dwellings, access to scrolls, so in a lot of ways this number is somewhat conservative.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 28, 2011 12:04 AM |
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Some skills are clearly meant for secondary heroes, but then again, I don't really see a problem with that.
The problem is, as stated several times already, that in order to make use of certain skills, you have to use them in certain way. In other words - perfect template. I think that is one of the things addressed in the topic.
I dont see how this situation( where some skills are perfect for secondary heroes) is bad. For me its awesome. In all previous parts i was hunting for those skills, now i can pick them every time. Im cool with that. Just dont tell me they have to invent 100 skills for secondary heros so you can bigger pool to choose from 
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some skills will almost always be picked; some skills will almost never be picked;
That is true in the current state, but with very little balance all skills will be perfectly viable. Besides, there is still a large pool of good skills at the moment, so its not a major concern, there are bigger issues they need to deal with asap.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 28, 2011 12:26 AM |
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Trying to protect your cross bowman is a pain. Plus with the defensive capabilities of Haven it's not really necessary anyways. You can basically spend the first turn moving everything worth moving around what you want to protect. It's not like your going to be charging with much right anyways.
I can't comment on playing against a Human opponent, but against the AI, I'd like to get the first turn to get my troops into position - hammering the enemy.
Through Tactics, I am able to put my Marksmen at the very edge of the battle map, left or right flank. Reason? It makes almost certain that you will use them to shoot diagonally, often hitting more than one stack. I usually have my melee stacks wait up, until the AI has moved his units, then slap on Guardian Angel on the first of mine to act again to soak up the retaliation; then I hit that same stack with whatever else I have that can reach it, until it goes down. Or, I slap Guardian Angel on a stack that's in the path of a crossbowbolt - my own - after it lured several enemies to itself.
I must say I was a bit sceptical at first because Guardian Angel doesn't heal, so I expected troops to die in droves every battle. But I find myself only casting few heals anymore, most can be handled by my Vestals and still I end battles with zero casualties most often.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 28, 2011 09:11 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:17, 28 Oct 2011.
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Um that's not even comparable. Saying that taking puppet master is bad against Necropolis isn't a "marginal scenario". Playing off of your enemies strengths and weaknesses is not a marginal scenario.
So you keep arguing about a single spell mentioned by me as generally effective because it can't be used against a single faction? Necropolis is and has always been an exception, this does not need to be commented at all. You can't use many spells against them but that does not make the said spells "bad" just because of this.
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The problem is if try and expand, you end up shooting yourself more than anything. Trying to protect your cross bowman is a pain.
It isn't, you just need to know how to do it. Not protecting them is helping the opponent. You need Tactics (and by far not only because of the Crossbowmen/Marksmen) and that's it.
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Put this aside I don't see why having a set of 5-10 core skills generally good for all Might heroes and some generally good for all magic heroes to pick at some point is bad. Some things are truly over powered, like that light magic skill I can't recall the name of, and some clearly worthless, catapult, and need to be fixed, but by and large, the system is good, it just needs some fine tuning.
I'm talking exactly about this fine-tuning. Because, you see, when they announced the new system, there were concerns that it will end up in its current form - plenty of available choices but far fewer "good" ones which will always be picked. They advertised something close to perfectly balanced game with "StarCraft-like difference between the factions" or something like that - which currently is only half-executed and in this regard the game is not very different from Heroes V, even less diversified if you take into account that there are no strictly racial skills and spells apart from the main ability. This aspect seriously needs improvement but it is one of the many "to be improved" things in the list, headed by major technical issues, so I doubt that we'll see anything substantial in the next few months. The game was released in a better state than Heroes V but still it is far from satisfactory. What I don't understand is how come games released 10+ years ago could be far superior in terms of polishing than something recent and why there are so many people who accept this as something natural.
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How is this any different than having ridiculous prerequisite for spells and abilities?
Here's how - the previous system, particularly its Heroes V incarnation, had the flaw of "randomness over strategy" which ultimately resulted in sub-optimal builds most of the time. This is an admitted problem. You were sometimes forced by the algorithm to take something you didn't need and lose the opportunity to take something useful on its place. The current system is not much of an improvement because, even though you are not forced to take anything, you are pretty restricted by the overall usefulness of the skills and their de facto ranking as "dominant" and "inferior" in almost every possible build. So in the previous system you would mess up the hero's development by taking some bad skill by force while in the new system you won't mess up anything but you will very often stick to the same skills, resulting in a bland and predictable game. That's not an improvement. When (or actually if) they fix the internal balance between the skills, then the situation might be different.
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Assuming that's all lets say that's 20 "perfect" builds per hero class
Hardly 20, I'd say that there are no more than 3-4 with many overlapping skills in each build.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 28, 2011 10:44 AM |
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I must say I was a bit sceptical at first because Guardian Angel doesn't heal, so I expected troops to die in droves every battle.
guardian angel even protects you from retaliations 
there was a reason why it was level 5 in homm4, and it was even dispelled as soon as you took an offensive action (before the enemy retaliation) but it was still one of the best spells imo, with hypnotize.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 28, 2011 01:01 PM |
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the previous system, particularly its Heroes V incarnation, had the flaw of "randomness over strategy" which ultimately resulted in sub-optimal builds most of the time.
Totally not true. Maybe you didn't know how the system worked. I had my planned build in about 90% of my games. Its really hard to miss a skill that comes most often xx times in a row, unless you planned having war machines for sylvan ofc... If you took too many skills and then you were flooded with all the new perks from each tree then you hurt yourself, dont blame the system.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 28, 2011 01:15 PM |
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the previous system, particularly its Heroes V incarnation, had the flaw of "randomness over strategy" which ultimately resulted in sub-optimal builds most of the time.
Totally not true. Maybe you didn't know how the system worked. I had my planned build in about 90% of my games. Its really hard to miss a skill that comes most often xx times in a row, unless you planned having war machines for sylvan ofc... If you took too many skills and then you were flooded with all the new perks from each tree then you hurt yourself, dont blame the system.
Yes, if you know how to work the Heroes 5 skill system, it was actually very easy to avoid ending in dead ends, and it was even marginally likely - if never highly likely - to get very rare skills if you wanted them. Yes, there were certain troublesome examples (the worst were when a basic (outer cirkle) perk led on to three or more advanced (mid cirkle) perks, and you needed a specific one to open the inner cirkle perk, or builds that required two very rare skills (like Wizard -> March Of The Golems + Artifical Glory, which was great fun but virtually impossible to obtain), but those were in the minority, and the latter was not the fault of the skill system but the fact that there was no might Academy class.
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What will happen now?
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted October 28, 2011 01:49 PM |
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so in light of last posts one starts to think that ppl want current system just more convoluted so they would be fooled that they can't choose what they want but in reality they can?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 28, 2011 02:27 PM |
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No, old system, even tho when you finished the longer game you had similar builds with same castles, was giving you different early game almost every time. Unless you started with war machines(and you didnt care about the skill order since it didnt have any difference for you because WM were enough to kill everything) you had to work with what you were given. Now you take what you need to kill neutrals and you are set to go, before you couldnt just take those skills asap and sometimes you had to go around it somehow either killing neutrals some other way than you planned or leave them altogether to avoid losing army. The order which you were given was different every time. You had to add the fact that you couldnt take every skill you wanted at any given time so that you dont open too many trees and put yourself in bad position as i mentioned above. All this was a strategy and now its all gone. Thats my fear for this part, doing exactly same thing early game will become boring quickly.
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