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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 30 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 (22) 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 ]
Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 20, 2012 02:36 PM

The Lilim die in droves when targeted by an enemy shooter with full range and they are the only capable ranged creature that Inferno has (it's even cuter against Haven which can pour Implosion-like Heal with the Vestals on them and then just wait for you to smash your head into the undying wall of Praetorians + whatever). I.e. usually you are forced to advance on the opponent ASAP. Gating helps but you are greatly overstimating its usefulness. Focus fire on the original stacks can reduce its effectiveness greatly and only the Magic Tear hero has something to counter that.
Regarding the Hell Hounds/Cerberi - enough about them already. You are the only person in this forum who claims that they are any good and globally you are belonging to a very small, almost non-existent minority. People, including me, have given you arguments why this the indisputable worst Core in the game but you won't listen. It's pointless. I hope that you are not the person who is giving Ubihole ideas regarding how to balance Inferno because if this is so, it will remain the worst faction until the Heroes VI version of TotE, if such thing ever sees light.

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 20, 2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

You have to keep in mind, that Campaign Single play is different in that it is supposed to be a CHALLENGE, that is determined. It's staged. It doesn't allow comparison.



lol, I think most of the ppl here aren't talking about the challenge of a specific campaign. At least, I'm not. I'm talking about game mechanics and faction effectivity.

I disagree with you, most of the people learn a lot about the game just playing the campaign (mechanics) and considering this is the sixth game. No one here is talking about a specific battle, last battle of a campaign map nothing of this.

A few random battles inferno vs necro with medium army is enough to see some things aren't as it is supposed to be. Differently from computers (current days, at least), the human brain have a high deductive capacity.

Quote:

You are aware, of course that a level 15 hero's gated stacks will each be made up of about 10% of the ARMY (not stack) strength. You are also aware, of course, that irresistable calling will bring that to 14% and that Seal Of Power will allow you to make up losses with the Gated creatures.


Alright, you are aware nagas can get eye of the storm (stack imune for 3 turns) pretty good right? you are aware necros can get the curse of the netherworld, hmm more healing, pretty nice right?
Now let me ask, nagas need eye of storm to work fine? necros need more healing to work fine? No.
But I think the tears skills inferno hero gets can give some good ideas on how the inferno could work better. Like Momo said before you shouldn't need such obsessive care or specific skills to make a faction work well. If inferno needs specific skills to work well, these skill should be baseline.

Quote:

Give examples. Which map(s)? Difficulty level? Player positions?
I'd like to make sure we have comparable experiences.


hm, Ithink you can have a very good experience playing the Map 2 of the campaing , play it as blood(might blood maybe). You fight mostly against Necros there, but instead of thinking just "I win! Mission accomplished!", try to analyze how the things are working.

Then we can discuss the necropolis situation too, what you think about them? Are they in a good place in your opinion?


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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 20, 2012 02:57 PM

and another thing:

Quote:
It means that Inferno may be the faction that is most prone to losses, but it's also the only faction that can bring in more troops and resinforcements every turn and apart from the summoning and reinforcement skills...



That could be the definition of a good balanced inferno faction, not the current inferno.

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Dark-Whisperer
Dark-Whisperer


Known Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
posted January 20, 2012 03:10 PM

Why don't you just play duel against JJ as inferno and see what he is talking about?

Or you just think that at the time of decisive battle inferno would have much  less troops than any other town, no matter how good inferno player is?

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 20, 2012 03:24 PM

Inferno will lose against most factions even if it doesn't lose even a single creature during the creeping. The duel will prove little because it's very far from the situation in a real game but I can duel him if he wants.

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 20, 2012 03:30 PM

just to clear the things, when I say "the human brain have a high deductive capacity", I don't mean to offend anyone, just saying playing the campaigns can give enough knowlege to the ppl to opine.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 20, 2012 04:57 PM

Quote:


Quote:

Give examples. Which map(s)? Difficulty level? Player positions?
I'd like to make sure we have comparable experiences.


hm, Ithink you can have a very good experience playing the Map 2 of the campaing , play it as blood(might blood maybe). You fight mostly against Necros there, but instead of thinking just "I win! Mission accomplished!", try to analyze how the things are working.

Then we can discuss the necropolis situation too, what you think about them? Are they in a good place in your opinion?



I think I made myself clear that campaign doesn't count. I mean a normal map, where balance is decisive when you play against another opponent)s), not against the scripted campaign stuff.

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ChaosWielder
ChaosWielder

Tavern Dweller
posted January 20, 2012 06:04 PM

I'd like to see a duel.

In any case, I don't believe most of us are talking about campaign maps where, as JJ has (numerously) pointed out, proper balance cannot be achieved. I speak of normal maps in the game like Tree of Plenty, Broken Alliance and others along those lines(they're quite different, granted, but there you have it). I've played more HVI than I care to admit outside of these forums, and I have found no tactic which allows for Inferno to match the power, in a straight up fight or through creeping, the other, better factions like Necro or Haven. They can perfect creep, sure, but that does *nothing* to address the observation that Glories/Liches and their ilk are *far* better than anything the Inferno has.

I desperately hope that UbiHole balances the game better. The town can function against the AI(what can't, though), but I just cannot see how it can hold its own against the other factions if similarily skilled individuals are controlling either side.
____________

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 20, 2012 07:08 PM

Quote:
I think I made myself clear that campaign doesn't count. I mean a normal map, where balance is decisive when you play against another opponent)s), not against the scripted campaign stuff.


opz, forgot this.


@ChaosWielder
Well, then I'm sorry.
With my little experience, every time I have a battle necro X inferno, I feel like the things aren't balanced, doesn't matter the map, campaigns, random maps, just my op ofc, and I think creeping is not the big prob. In fact, I can creep ok with inferno, but I played multiplayer just a few times so I can't talk too much :S
I'll leave the rest of the discussion to the more experienced guys, but I would like to hear some opinions about changes for the Necropolis and if they need any.

I hope to see some news of the 1.3 soon.

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ChaosWielder
ChaosWielder

Tavern Dweller
posted January 20, 2012 07:50 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I think I made myself clear that campaign doesn't count. I mean a normal map, where balance is decisive when you play against another opponent)s), not against the scripted campaign stuff.


opz, forgot this.


@ChaosWielder
Well, then I'm sorry.
With my little experience, every time I have a battle necro X inferno, I feel like the things aren't balanced, doesn't matter the map, campaigns, random maps, just my op ofc, and I think creeping is not the big prob. In fact, I can creep ok with inferno, but I played multiplayer just a few times so I can't talk too much :S
I'll leave the rest of the discussion to the more experienced guys, but I would like to hear some opinions about changes for the Necropolis and if they need any.

I hope to see some news of the 1.3 soon.


They need changes. Or, what I would prefer, is for the weaker factions to be made better(Inferno being the weakest, obviously, and me being unsure beyond that). No need to apologize; I'm with you that Necro v Inferno is basically impossible for the demons.
____________

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 20, 2012 08:44 PM

Quote:
A Tear1 + Might hero will gate 14% army strength with each stack which means, it's possible to double the inital strength within the first 7 turns.


That is so goood, but wanna know whats better? Triple the army in only 14 turns or  wait, wait, better. QUADRUPLE in..

Ah forget about it. Lets just summon the legion altogether , just lost the count, how many turns was it again?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 20, 2012 09:59 PM

Okay, relax, people, I'm with you, I just had to bring this issue to a conclusion, so I played a bit devil's advocat.

Yes, of course something is wrong with the balance, but I can assure you, it's not the doggies.

I'll make a longer post later this weekend.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted January 20, 2012 11:26 PM

I would rather se a down tuning of the stronger factions, then boostig the weaker
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your
self.

We see, we look, we gather,
we
store, we teach. We are
many,
and you can be one of us.

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hobo2
hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted January 21, 2012 09:32 AM

Quote:
I would rather se a down tuning of the stronger factions, then boostig the weaker


There are only 35 units in 5 factions, and all combats involve troops from one facing off against another. Nerfing Necropolis troops is boosting the Stronghold. Boosting the Stronghold is nerfing the Necropolis.
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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted January 21, 2012 10:24 AM

Quote:
Nerfing Necropolis troops is boosting the Stronghold. Boosting the Stronghold is nerfing the Necropolis.

Well Necro needs to be nerfed for the benefit of all factions!

@JJ - hellhounds are still the flimsiest

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted January 21, 2012 12:03 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I would rather se a down tuning of the stronger factions, then boostig the weaker


There are only 35 units in 5 factions, and all combats involve troops from one facing off against another. Nerfing Necropolis troops is boosting the Stronghold. Boosting the Stronghold is nerfing the Necropolis.


I think you misunderstood me.
The point is. I like the gameplay of the weaker factions. And think that the Stronger ones are just to easy to play.
So my point is -> inferno and stronghold gameplay is just fine, you need to make Necropolis and Hevan more chlanging to play.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your
self.

We see, we look, we gather,
we
store, we teach. We are
many,
and you can be one of us.

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hobo2
hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted January 21, 2012 12:59 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would rather se a down tuning of the stronger factions, then boostig the weaker


There are only 35 units in 5 factions, and all combats involve troops from one facing off against another. Nerfing Necropolis troops is boosting the Stronghold. Boosting the Stronghold is nerfing the Necropolis.


I think you misunderstood me.
The point is. I like the gameplay of the weaker factions. And think that the Stronger ones are just to easy to play.
So my point is -> inferno and stronghold gameplay is just fine, you need to make Necropolis and Hevan more chlanging to play.


There are extreme problems with your assessment. The first is that the relative difficulty of playing Stronghold and Inferno includes the fact that Sanctuary, Haven, and especially Necropolis units and armies are better. If you nerf Haven forces in any way, it will become harder to play perfect games with the Haven, but it will also necessarily become easier to play as the Inferno.

There aren't very many factions and neutrals aren't a significant portion of the opposition at any point in the game. So it really is zero sum. You cannot make the Necropolis weaker without making the Inferno stronger. You cannot make the Inferno stronger without making the Necropolis weaker. It's a closed system, you can't hold one faction steady in strength and move another faction up or down. The strength of any faction is only measured relative to the opposition it encounters. And that opposition is drawn overwhelmingly from the other factions.

The second is that the relative challenge of playing a faction actually has relatively little to do with how good they are. Adding more micromanagement to a faction makes it more challenging, but it doesn't actually make the game any more fair. If you made Ghosts and Namtaru more fiddly to use, the "challenge" of the Necropolis would increase, but they'd still be better than you. And that would still be unfair.
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted January 23, 2012 08:13 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 11:07, 23 Jan 2012.

OK. I am going to explain it for in the most simplest way.

It is like picking apples from a tree.
Nec. San. and Hev. are are young small trees from which you have no broblem picking all the appels from.
While Inf. and Str. are large trees that you need to climb on to get the appels if you do not want them to be hurt by the impact on the ground.
So if you want quality appels you have to do more to get them.
But !I! do not mind the climbing, it gives me a "Chalange" and I do not feel like a five year old that can not manage anything slightly more complicated.
Most of the people here say "Chop down those big trees and plant in new ones". But I say NO. Let the other grow, the game will be more fun.

How to make them grow?
1 Make necropolis units more fragil -> especialy core ones
2 Make the Griphin work the same way as in H5 and not as a Homing missel
3 Get rid of the Golries disspel skill
4 make the Crusaders "no retaliation" effect form Charg appear only after 3+ squares
5 healing that resurrects units is only 50% effective
6 Reduce the Light damage done to evil units by Healing
7 50% range for the Lich plus lower his MA
8 Make necromancy similar to Rise dead in H5 each ressurrection lowers units HP by x% until the end of battle
aso....

Offcorse this will help the other factions to, but it will not effect there gameplay.
The game is PG 16 for crying out loud!!! Why do so many people here need it to be as eazy as posible.

I hate the word balance more and more I read about it here.

P.s. do you understand now hobo2? Or are you more technicly oriented and would like me to give you a numerical example,

____________
I'm just a Mirror of your
self.

We see, we look, we gather,
we
store, we teach. We are
many,
and you can be one of us.

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted January 23, 2012 10:29 AM

I like what you say Dave_Jame here especially points 1 and 8, especially point 8....make it like H5...

Anyway, I started playing Skyrim on the weekend (fantastic game!) and loved their skill system and how it works. There are about 25 different skill groups and each one goes in depth with like an average of 8 abilities under each skill, very in depth!

H5 had something similar, but that is what's lacking from H6, that skill depth.

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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 23, 2012 11:05 AM
Edited by Nocturnal at 14:28, 23 Jan 2012.

Regarding Inferno:

I'm curious why everyone is talking how useless Cerberus are but not Demented. They also die like flies, have less speed and at least Cerberus can attack 2 units at the same time if they can survive until they can hit someone. But Demented?

Cerberus also died very easily in H5. But the reason they were valuable was their speed was 8, they had "no enemy retaliation", could attack 3 units, and the alt.upgrade also attacked the units behind the attacked ones, and they had very high initiative. Now, in this game, they have nothing to compensate for their easy-dying nature. Having 3 heads won't be possible now. So the return of "no enemy retaliation" and high initiative will do good.

But Demented seriously needs new skills and abilities. They are just basic melee hitters with no other use other than go and hit. Maniac Laughter is very powerless right now.

On the other hand, giving full range to Breeders is also necessary. As I've said weeks before, what she throws is a living creature (imp), so the thing can even aim itself. She shouldn't even get range penalty behind town walls in a siege. As she doesn't have any useful in-combat ability other than shooting, this range boost is mendatory. Also, as she shakes all of her tentacles when retaliating, it would be much better and rational if she hit all the adjacent enemies when she retaliates to one. Like the Hydras in H5, but she will have melee penalty.

And if they also give Lacerator Unlimited Retaliation, and give Juggernaut's Charge the ability to hit the units in front of the tile he stops with his chest, Inferno will be a good faction.

Their racial has become weak in this game, as the gating locations are destructible structures and the gated units disappears when the original stack dies. Both of these must be changed. It must be an indestructible structure and the unit must remain until only gated units remain on the battle field or until the gated unit dies. Just like in H5.

Regarding Necro:

It's obvious Lichs are gamebreakers. Their abilities are very useful but additionally they have no range penalty. So getting rid of that range, meaning giving him half range will make him better for the balance.

Lamasu are way useless. Both of its abilities are powerless. If Breath of Vermin did instant damage too, it can mean something. But as for now, it does no damage, and the nature damage he does over turns is in a pitiful amount.

Ghosts and Ghouls should have less HP. Ghost can both heal and damage, they pass through everything, they have Spirit Form. That's too much. Reducing their HP is mandatory. Ghouls also can reach very easily to the enemy with 7 speed and they do hell of a damage.

It's also stupid undead have resistence to water. Why?

Another thing is, they are immune to every Dark spell, that's OK. But what's not OK is that they cannot also get affected by abilities that have some Darkness element in them. For example, Necro creatures are not affected by Glory's "Searin Light" because along with the Light damage it deals, it also blinds the target and Necro is immune to blind. The reasonable way of this would be they should suffer the Light damage it deals but not get blinded.

I also would like, only in aesthetic sense, that the spider form of Weavers are melee, and the human for is ranger. But, that's me.

Regarding Sanctuary:

This faction is balanced really. Except for their racial's level 3 and 4. Because it's already discussed in another thread that "chilled" is a very useless affect. So the frost shield that's provided with Honor 3-4 is useless and level 3 doesn't even have "chilled" and the damage it deals is minor.

The reason "chilled" is useless in this racial is that, if the creature attacked you in melee, that means it already reached you. So the -1 speed penalty has no point. And as Sanctuary heroes cannot have access to Fire, the fire vulnerability is useless.

Regarding Haven:

Haven also is pretty balanced, EXCEPT the "Cleansing Light" of Glories. They can already reach the enemy in the first turn with their 8 speed and 50 initiative and they strike and return, suffering no retaliation. They can also deal immense instant damage with "Searing Light" and get that loss of them resurrected after the combot (although it is bugged now). So that Cleansing, as it does cleanse her, her adjacent allies, her adjacent enemies, meaning pretty much everyone, is very overpowered. If she would only cleanse herself that would be OK. But right now, it is broken.

Regarding Stronghold:

This faction is on the verge of being overpowered but is saved from there with the downs they have.

Cyclops are the main problem here. Might slam is the biggest. The creature already can attack both ranged and melee, has  Burning Rage, that does everlasting damage over turns, doesn't suffer its casualities until next turn, and can push small targets back and deals massive damage.

Mighty slam, must not deal %100 damage to all the adjacent units. Either it should be 2 units at most, or %100 to the real target %50 to the adjacent ones, or have only one charge. But right now this ability is like making the Armageddon spell from H5.

The second problem with the faction is the Racial. +10 initiative and + 15 might power to a faction most of the units of which already have very high initiative and deal heavy damage, and get even more damage and + 2 movement with First Blood, is way too much. They get invincible. The movement boost with First Blood should get reduced to +1, the iniative and damage boost with the Racial must be +5 and +10 respectively in order to keep the balance.

I also thought Stronghold was overpowered in H5. The creatures got immense bonuses with Bloodrage. Anyone refusing that, can have a Stronghold against Academy battle with Elvin playing the Stronghold

So, these are my overall suggestions.
____________
True beauty transcends such
simplistic labels such as "good" and
"evil" -Vega

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