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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 30 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 (20) 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 ]
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 04:25 PM

Who cares about how the CAMPAIGN plays? That's single player.

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Mike80D
Mike80D


Famous Hero
Map Maker
posted January 18, 2012 04:47 PM

Quote:
Who cares about how the CAMPAIGN plays? That's single player.


First, I care how the campaign plays.  The Inferno campaign is incredibly annoying to me at the moment, and I've finished the previous 4 just fine.

Second, you're telling me that neutral mobs in a multiplayer game don't auto-target core hounds EVERY SINGLE ATTACK?!  It is my experience that all heroes and neutral creatures attack core hounds most every time.

The sad fact is that in multiplayer your best strategy with Inferno is not to include Core Hounds in your army until the end of the game.  This way you actually have them to use for a big battle.  This very fact leads to a big disparity in faction competitiveness in multiplayer b/c the Inferno player is left to creep with 2 of 3 core units.

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 18, 2012 05:10 PM

Quote:
Who cares about how the CAMPAIGN plays? That's single player.


"that's an old and bad excuse. And you didn't answer my question, how do you win against necropolis without losses? I rly need to know the secret.

Quote:

I don't have any losses.

I have no idea what maps you are playing on what difficulty and how you play - I have no losses. Sorry.



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Xerox
Xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 18, 2012 08:32 PM

i'm pretty sure a lot of people care for a good campaign

but of course multiplayer is also important, there's no way I am replaying the H6 campaigns - tbh I enjoyed H5s campaigns more (better gameplay, less waiting 1000 turns to get a big army)

I will probably not ever play H6 non-duel multiplayer anyway because I absolutely hate the slow "no losses" thing that H6 is forcing
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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ChaosWielder
ChaosWielder

Tavern Dweller
posted January 18, 2012 08:36 PM

Quote:
I don't have any losses.

I have no idea what maps you are playing on what difficulty and how you play - I have no losses. Sorry.

Only when battling armies led by heroes - but that's normal, since they can flee, so you cannot determine the end of the battle.

Ok, I may lose a dog, once in a while, but that's mostly due to careless play.
Maybe I play differently.


I'd like to chime in here and say that, like JJ, I don't have creeping losses as Inferno. How? Clever use of Life Drain, Demented and tactics. Is this hard? Not particularly. Does it make the town good? No. This is the crux that I believe isn't being addressed. Even with perfect creeping--and I do mean perfect--the town simply cannot function as well as other more effective factions(Haven, Necro). They have no losses as well--and, might I add, they achieve this more easily--but their armies function better in the final engagement.

The issue ought not to be "how good is the town on creeping" but, rather, that they suffer so deeply in army to army battles. It borders on parody how easily many of the factions can roll through the Inferno units. Demented are fine, same with Lilims and probably Pitlords and Lacerators. However, with 3 units dragging down the faction as a whole I simply cannot understand saying they're fine. They can creep, sure, but they cannot fight like other factions; that is a serious problem and one that needs to be addressed. I seriously doubt UbiHole plans on doing anything, however. My faith is shaken.
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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 18, 2012 09:55 PM

i agree with you guys mostly.

Quote:

I'd like to chime in here and say that, like JJ, I don't have creeping losses as Inferno. How? Clever use of Life Drain, Demented and tactics.



@ChaosWielder
Man, I understand what you r talking about. But you said "life drain", and that's the point where I want to call the attention. Like I said before I think inferno relies too much in the life drain.
And when you are facing undead, just say goodbye to the tools you mentined before, even creeping medium groups of undead can cause some trouble. Ofc, if your army is superior you ll have less trouble.

But this is what I found playing the inferno campaign: Inferno looks a little more susceptible to losses than the other factions, but the most important is a battle Inferno vs Necropolis is just too unfair. You lose life drain, entrall and almost all the tricks inferno have.

I was still able to beat the AI, but seeing how the mechanics works, inferno vs necro is far from a fair battle. Stronghold can't use the life drain too against the undead, but they can deal with that, they are more versatile, fast and competitive.

That's +- what I was trying to say, imo inferno vs necro is some exceptional case of imbalance. Unless that you are the dragonborn, like my friend here, you will get a big trouble.

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ChaosWielder
ChaosWielder

Tavern Dweller
posted January 18, 2012 11:07 PM
Edited by ChaosWielder at 23:09, 18 Jan 2012.

Quote:
i agree with you guys mostly.

Quote:

I'd like to chime in here and say that, like JJ, I don't have creeping losses as Inferno. How? Clever use of Life Drain, Demented and tactics.



@ChaosWielder
Man, I understand what you r talking about. But you said "life drain", and that's the point where I want to call the attention. Like I said before I think inferno relies too much in the life drain.
And when you are facing undead, just say goodbye to the tools you mentined before, even creeping medium groups of undead can cause some trouble. Ofc, if your army is superior you ll have less trouble.

But this is what I found playing the inferno campaign: Inferno looks a little more susceptible to losses than the other factions, but the most important is a battle Inferno vs Necropolis is just too unfair. You lose life drain, entrall and almost all the tricks inferno have.

I was still able to beat the AI, but seeing how the mechanics works, inferno vs necro is far from a fair battle. Stronghold can't use the life drain too against the undead, but they can deal with that, they are more versatile, fast and competitive.

That's +- what I was trying to say, imo inferno vs necro is some exceptional case of imbalance. Unless that you are the dragonborn, like my friend here, you will get a big trouble.


Necro v Inferno is stupidly imbalanced I cannot even explain it, yes. In many of the matchups--say, Inferno v Stronghold--I feel like there are some tactics which can work out nicely(in my experience, Demented fair well against crushers/maulers due to the -1 Attack cancelling the bloodlust ability of the unit). That said, I see no tenable method for dispatching the Necromancers as the Inferno. You outline the reasons nicely above, so I see no reason to reiterate(except to say the Liches will kill your dogs in the first round of combat and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it; I've been on the giving and receiving end of this, and it sure isn't pretty).
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 19, 2012 01:28 AM

Exactly. Creeping with Inferno is part of the problem but mainly because it's slower and requires much more attention than with the other factions if you want to avoid losses while the real issue is the faction's inferiority in hero vs. hero engagements. The only really equal opponent so far seems to be Stronghold, just because it plays similarly to Inferno. Sanctuary can be beaten too but with quite some difficulties (the Kappa badly needs nerfing), playing against Haven is an uphill battle at best and Necropolis is beatable only if the opponent is totally clueless.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 19, 2012 01:50 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 01:57, 19 Jan 2012.

It doesn't matter whether the town cannot beat Necropolis without losses. I mean, are you kidding?

Does anywhere stand that in a campaign you have to be able to do that?

The "problem" with the Inferno town is, that all creatures are single fighters. There is not much army synergy. Considering what Inferno is supposed to be, that makes sense some unholy kind of sense.

Whether this leads to losses in the campaign or not - you only have to win, not without losses, and beating a really good Necro army without any losses at all is hard anyway (since no life drain is possible).

The doggies are incredibly good in offense, and consequently you have to use them as a bomb. In any fight against Necropolis that will be costly, be it because it's an end fight or a campaign fight against a good hero, the dogs have to go for the throat - RUSH them, so they will attack a maximum of stacks.
The alternative is the good old MASS HASTE (with advanced Tactics) - note, that this would be desastrous if it was done by Stronghold, but they can't do it.
With Inferno, when it really counts, you have to go for attack, no matter what.

The only relevant question is: do I have the same chance to win a normal game with Inferno than with any other town?

This can only be answered by those who compare the MP results. Creeping without losses is not only possible, in fact it's fairly easy, and it's even possible with more than one hero at the same time (of course depending on the general strength level of the neutrals on the map?
Also, going for Champion instead of Elites is not that hard.

There is one disadvantage, though: if you don't play hard, but normal, you can go for two heroes immediately, no matter what. Due to the no-synergy thing, it's best to have two heroes with identical forces, and give one of them one troop type and the other the second one - for example, one goes with 18 Succubi, the other with 8 doggies.
The other towns can go at that in a different way. Specifically, if there is immediate access to water, which is the case in some of the maps, it's not such a bad idea, to buy a Sanctuary hero as a SECONDARY, clear the initials with both separately in the first turns that take the Sanctuary hero to go and pick the water clean.

Against the Necropolis everyone has a hard time, but that's due to the fact that they are the perfect turtle town. (I don't think, I need to explain that.) They have 3 shooters, 2 of them pretty awesome, and their racial helps in addition the Reg and LD spells to keep up their numbers.

So duels are this thing that shows, that no matter the army, if you have an army with the duel army structure (all upgraded and in that strength relation), the other towns miss the instruments, aka the SKILLS, to really bother Necro. It's more or less decided in the first rounds: if you cannot do enough damage FAST and break through to get your hands on the shooters you are dead, because you can't keep up the damage output, while they will raise like hell.

But that's because the game, including the basic mechanics hands it over to the best turtle faction - a couple of can openers are missing here in the tools array, but they are missing for everyone.

A normal game is something else completely. Inferno is the one of two factions I really enjoy playing - the rest is boring. Stronghold ... you can go with Goblins alone, more or less, but the whole trapping business takes ages. Don't feel like Orcs, too much of a waiting game. Same with Haven. Sisters have the best punch, but why risk losing a few? Send up the infantry, intercept the enemy and heal troops - takes time also, because they don't do damage.

Necro is basically the same, except that the Ghouls are better, offensively, than the Praetorians and Sentinels. At least this plays a bit faster, but it feels more like bringing a plague over everyone, with the Ghouls instead of the cute and useless Zombies of old.

That leaves Sanctuary which is the other faction I enjoy playing. It is very well designed and has the potential to beat everything to crap. In any normal game you will have a ton of options, opportunities and even army tactics, and from that point of view Inferno and Sanctuary are pretty well designed.

My gaming experiences in any real game say, that things are developing very different from what happens in campaigns or duels.

Clearly, the Inferno is no Elite town, but what may seem to be a weakness may well become a strength, if there's more than one town. Also Gating is a rather powerful racial.

The bottom line seems to me, that you cannot play Inferno like the others. It's basically Stronghold the way you'd imagine an orcish mob, but in addition with a serious touch of madness - or the rabies. If it really is life or death, you've got to hit, like there's no tomorrow and gate a stack each turn, and if possible right at the start.

You might also say, if you win with Inferno, you will win BLOODY.

There is nothing wrong with that, provided you have a real chance to win. You can't, if you try to "match the style of other factions". The deceptive thing is, that for a very sizable part of any game you play every faction more or less Necropolis style, avoiding any loss - but when it comes to life and death, no one can beat Necro in their own game, which means, all towns must adjust their tactics in order to make their strengths count disregarding losses.

Currently my opinion still is that there need to be stronger anti-turtling skills: area spells with better effects, skills that lessen efficiency of stacks when too many are too close (friendly fire), and so on.
But that is true for everyone.

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DoubleDeck Online
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted January 19, 2012 02:08 AM
Edited by DoubleDeck at 02:10, 19 Jan 2012.

Quote:
The sad fact is that in multiplayer your best strategy with Inferno is not to include Core Hounds in your army until the end of the game.

I agree with you Mike80D here....one of the main reasons why the hounds take such losses is that they are targeted every time in battles....I mean, their defense stats and hit points are not the lowest in the game, it's just that the AI are petrified of them! (like blood maidens from H5)

The point is that in trying to balance the game (cooldowns, 3 x creature levels instead of 7 tiers, 3 resources, free for all skill trees) the racials need to be balanced too and equal in strength, but one can rank them from strongest to weakest:

1. Necromancy (no losses, raise raise raise!) - too powerful
2. Guardian Angel (can trigger too often) - tone down slightly morale affect
3. Bloodrage (affecting initiative on ATB bar is great!) - no problem here
4. Honor (defense defense defense) - no problem here
5. Gating (too slow, not enough gated stack) - increase luck affect

This is just my opinion, but one shouldn't be able to rank the racial abilities, they should all be ranked the same.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 19, 2012 04:36 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 04:37, 19 Jan 2012.

Quote:
The sad fact is that in multiplayer your best strategy with Inferno is not to include Core Hounds in your army until the end of the game.

That's of course bollocks. Fact is instead, that you need Tactics, once you have more than one troop type (that is, when you can hire additional units beside the stuff coming with the hero(es). Beause depending on the opposing force you can and should leave out troops.

The reason for this is the cooldown time of the Regeneration (and Life Drain spells). If you have more than one stack in your army - chances are that more than one stack may be hurt. If you have, for example both Succubi and Dogs, they will go for dogs first, but eventually may decide to try and block/hit the Succs as well.

So in order to save Mana and creatures you have to adjust your battling forces, depending on opponent.

However, there are also fights you will use the opposite tactic: that's when you need to gate stacks in order to block stuff, for one reason or another. The dogs are of course the best blockers.

That's what makes playing Inferno so interesting.

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DoubleDeck Online
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted January 19, 2012 05:07 AM

Yes, gated dogs are the best blockers (as they are cores and can be gated at gating I), but the point is this:

If you want to conserve dogs, leave them off the battlefield!

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Mike80D
Mike80D


Famous Hero
Map Maker
posted January 19, 2012 07:54 AM
Edited by mike80d at 07:55, 19 Jan 2012.

Quote:
Quote:
The sad fact is that in multiplayer your best strategy with Inferno is not to include Core Hounds in your army until the end of the game.

That's of course bollocks. Fact is instead, that you need Tactics, once you have more than one troop type (that is, when you can hire additional units beside the stuff coming with the hero(es). Beause depending on the opposing force you can and should leave out troops.

The reason for this is the cooldown time of the Regeneration (and Life Drain spells). If you have more than one stack in your army - chances are that more than one stack may be hurt. If you have, for example both Succubi and Dogs, they will go for dogs first, but eventually may decide to try and block/hit the Succs as well.

So in order to save Mana and creatures you have to adjust your battling forces, depending on opponent.

However, there are also fights you will use the opposite tactic: that's when you need to gate stacks in order to block stuff, for one reason or another. The dogs are of course the best blockers.

That's what makes playing Inferno so interesting.


So you're saying you can play with corehounds only if you're spamming Regeneration & Life Drain on them, while simultaneously blocking them in with gated creatures?  And you see nothing wrong with this?!  

You're forced to take two spells, and use them everytime on 1 specific unit, just so that unit doesn't get annihilated.  

Maybe on a non-competitive multiplayer map that is set to "easy" or "normal" could this work.  But on "hard" against a good player you're forced to progress.  And its this progress that causes you to fight stacks of creatures that aren't complete pushovers, and as a result no life drain or regen will keep the core hounds up.  

I'm fine with Inferno taking some losses now and then, and having units that don't have precise synergy.  But overall the faction is lackluster and core hounds are pathetic.  

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 19, 2012 08:00 AM

I wish you stop the turtling nonsense. Play the arena where are equal forces and check how turtling necro does against orcs. I won 100% of those duels as orcs.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 19, 2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

So you're saying you can play with corehounds only if you're spamming Regeneration & Life Drain on them, while simultaneously blocking them in with gated creatures?  And you see nothing wrong with this?!  

You're forced to take two spells, and use them everytime on 1 specific unit, just so that unit doesn't get annihilated.  

I didn't say that and it isn't so.

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Momo
Momo


Promising
Known Hero
posted January 19, 2012 08:29 AM

Quote:

I agree with others that Inferno shouldn't have healing, but something needs to be fixed with them to be viable.


Oh, you can go ahead and try to convince JJ of that, but it'd be a waste of time.

I am still waiting to know how does just ANYBODY with a given tactic avoid massive cerberus losses. I had not much chances to multiplay HoMM6 and I mostly played campaigns, guess what: even that dumb AI easily reduces your cerberi stack to 0 in no time.

Sure now, the AI is weak enough that you can manage to live without cerberi, but that doesn't make Inferno a solid pick.

Actually, as I tried to explain many times, even if there was one single, exoteric, special way to make Inferno on-par with the other factions, it would still mean Inferno is sub-par, considering you don't need such obsessive care to make other factions work.

Then again, hell will freeze before JJ admits any of this.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 19, 2012 08:32 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 08:34, 19 Jan 2012.

Quote:
I wish you stop the turtling nonsense. Play the arena where are equal forces and check how turtling necro does against orcs. I won 100% of those duels as orcs.
Turtling against Stronghold is a suicide since the beta (not it's a bit better because the Enraged Cyclops' Mighty Slam deals 100%, not 150% damage) but you are free to try to break a Necro turtle with any other faction. Grim losses at best. Haven has the best chances but will most likely fail as well*.
*... without Retribution Aura that is...

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 19, 2012 08:57 AM

Quote:
It doesn't matter whether the town cannot beat Necropolis without losses. I mean, are you kidding?


are YOU kidding? If you still don't understand the discussion we were having here at this point... omg. I think I was very clear. Man.. Now I understand you like to play the stubborn hehehe, but it's ok

Quote:
The "problem" with the Inferno town is, that all creatures are single fighters. There is not much army synergy. Considering what Inferno is supposed to be, that makes sense some unholy kind of sense.


thank God! So finally see the word "problem" here But I disagree with you, are you saying a army without synergy is the philosophy of the inferno? Or because inferno are the bad guys should have bad units just to fit them well? Don't you think they could have a better army synergy in their way? Imo no synergy among the units in any faction = bad design. Ofc don't need to synergy perfectly, but you understand.

Quote:
Whether this leads to losses in the campaign or not - you only have to win, not without losses, and beating a really good Necro army without any losses at all is hard anyway (since no life drain is possible).

The doggies are incredibly good in offense, and consequently you have to use them as a bomb.In any fight against Necropolis that will be costly, be it because it's an end fight or a campaign fight against a good hero, the dogs have to go for the throat - RUSH them, so they will attack a maximum of stacks.
The alternative is the good old MASS HASTE (with advanced Tactics) - note, that this would be desastrous if it was done by Stronghold, but they can't do it.
With Inferno, when it really counts, you have to go for attack, no matter what.





Alright, "you just have to win, not without losses" I'm getting tired rly.. So, we have a new philosophy for the inferno: the kamikaze faction. They could make the cerberus to explode when they die at least and change the name (dog's bomb maybe?)
I don't like this new style too, but winning without losses (or few losses) is a part of the game now man. sorry

You go ALL OFFENSIVE against the necropolis because SIMPLY there is NOTHING LEFT to do! you are completly DISABLED. You can't use any inferno special skill besides gating. Now let me ask, is that fair?


Quote:
Against the Necropolis everyone has a hard time, but that's due to the fact that they are the perfect turtle town. (I don't think, I need to explain that.) They have 3 shooters, 2 of them pretty awesome, and their racial helps in addition the Reg and LD spells to keep up their numbers.


Don't you think that's why ppl say necropolis is the strongest faction and needs a little nerf? Why should everyone has to have hard time against the necropolis? that fit they phylosophy better?

Imo, Necropolis have a lot of tools to deal with different situations, they have the biggest regeneration capacity and they have A LOT of immunities. This might suprise you but they are very good in short battles too, not only the turtles. A inferno vs necropolis situation is a extreme case where the demons will look to the undeads and think.. "oh sh*t!"


Quote:
A normal game is something else completely. Inferno is the one of two factions I really enjoy playing - the rest is boring.


I undestand you enjoy man, might be more fun to you, more challenging. But it is still inferior, and against the undead is ridiculous. Like you said before is rush or die, the necro just need to block you for a while or use drain life and that's all.

Quote:
That leaves Sanctuary which is the other faction I enjoy playing. It is very well designed....

Also Gating is a rather powerful racial.


I agree.

Quote:
The bottom line seems to me, that you cannot play Inferno like the others. It's basically Stronghold the way you'd imagine an orcish mob, but in addition with a serious touch of madness - or the rabies. If it really is life or death, you've got to hit, like there's no tomorrow and gate a stack each turn, and if possible right at the start.


I don't want to play inferno exactly like the others. I want to play inferno effectively, like the others. I want a little nerf to Necropolis too, they are too powerfull overall.
And, stronghold is more competitive against necropolis than inferno.


Quote:
... that for a very sizable part of any game you play every faction more or less Necropolis style, avoiding any loss - but when it comes to life and death, no one can beat Necro in their own game, which means, all towns must adjust their tactics in order to make their strengths count disregarding losses.


Well, we can dream for that. But unfortunately, avoiding losses is not the necropolis style, is the heroes 6 style.

Quote:
Currently my opinion still is that there need to be stronger anti-turtling skills: area spells with better effects, skills that lessen efficiency of stacks when too many are too close (friendly fire), and so on....

That could be very good, I agree. But I think we can hope for that in a expansion maybe not in a patch. I was trying to discuss some skill balance, faction balance for a future 1.3. But who knows

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 19, 2012 09:25 AM

Right. I see, this is going nowhere. To make this easier how about this:

Pick a map. Pick a player position. Pick difficulty levels and so on, experience gaining speed. Go creep with any faction you like for the time you find appropriate. If you think you are fine and have a good position that cannot be matched by Inferno, tell me the time I'm supposed to play with Inferno, then we compare development.

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jhb
jhb


Known Hero
posted January 19, 2012 10:08 AM

Nah, I just give up. Like you said this is going nowhere. I do prefer to follow the Momo's advice and wait for the hell to freeze.

Now I have a question to the other ppl (not you ofc, as you think everything is as it was supposed to be).

What do you think about making the lilim's enthrall work against the undead? I know this might be a poor solution but this is a key skill for inferno imo and works nicely against the other factions, this skill gives inferno a big help, strategically talking. The feeling I got playing inferno without enthrall is almost like playing sanctuary without waves of renewal.

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