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| Thread: Israeli tourists killed in a bus explosion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
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posted August 07, 2012 10:32 AM |
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I wouldn't call situation in Israel complicated. I'd rather resort to using the title "dead simple" - and that's because of the fact that the sides of the conflict aren't equal. Look at previous targets of UN interventions or US interventions - mostly poor countries, helpless to be treated seriously, without any means of power. Such countries can be easily bullied into peace - or attempts of peace - but now look at Israel, with the nuclear arsenal it has... it's just not the kind of country anyone can make "peaceful" by force. It's not that I'm blaming Israel for this mess, but that's how the world works. Just imagine that the same situation happens in US, now who's going to tell them to fix this? Russia? UN? As the world's prime superpower, US is beyond any sort of control, even ICJ doesn't have jurisdiction there, so the only thing the world could hope for would be for US to resolve the situation itself. You can't force a nuclear-tier country into obedience on the international scene, and nothing else can be done by outside powers; all that's left is to wait and see. It's not that Israel can do anything: they technically could give up a part of their territory for means of forming a Palestinian country, but no nuclear-tier country is ever going to give up an inch of their land, we already know that from history. And the other solution was already tested - in 1939-1945 - and is completely unacceptable, especially by people who were the target of such "solution" already.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted August 07, 2012 11:53 AM |
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Quote:
As the world's prime superpower, US is beyond any sort of control, even ICJ doesn't have jurisdiction there, so the only thing the world could hope for would be for US to resolve the situation itself.
I hope reasonable american HC members to read this and think it over.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 07, 2012 12:17 PM |
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 07, 2012 06:26 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 18:55, 07 Aug 2012.
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Quote:
As the world's prime superpower, US is beyond any sort of control, even ICJ doesn't have jurisdiction there,
Every sovereign country should be like that. ICJ and anything linked to the UN is useless when it comes to the issues of a sovereign country.
Might makes right! This is the reason the UN or every "United in diversity" type of organization will always fail.
People always complain about the US "Policing" the world but they always fail to understand that the UN is supposed to do that.
Weapons are the means of talk in conflicts where one side has a military superiority. The israeli-palestinian conflict is a simple problem coated with religion and ethnic hatred. If there was no problem with the fanatics on both sides, it would have been a simple issue to solve. And no, you can never please everybody or in this case both sides.
Quote:
so the only thing the world could hope for would be for US to resolve the situation itself.
Why solve the conflict? That conflict brings money, keeps israel in "State of emergency" and allows the israeli government to establish a police state. Also, the US is siding with the more powerful Israel here and they need not worry about the weak opposition. If I was the US president, I would do the same.
Why care to solve a conflict? Human life? Justice? Pff,that is overrated and European people know that all too well,especially the east.
Also, the middle east is nice place to be for a weapons dealer. Lots of wars and therefore customers. If you look at syria, it buys alot of weapons from Russia, even at the current civil war.
Talk about justice here...
The link
Link
And to put that what I said from a nice movie
Those conspiracy movies,books and games are not too far off with our world.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted August 07, 2012 06:45 PM |
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I hope humanity will learn to look past petty borders and start considering itself the true unity it can be.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted August 07, 2012 07:57 PM |
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Doomforge,a qp for you!
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted August 07, 2012 08:29 PM |
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"You should use proportionate force" is a clever way of saying "Please stop, I'm getting my ass kicked." It's something that would only ever come out of the mouth of either a loser or the ally of a loser. If a group of Palestinians starts throwing rocks, you don't respond proportionately by throwing rocks. That's inane. You either ignore them, or if they're causing genuine problems, you put them down properly. You overwhelm them with a volley of rubber bullets, tear gas, etc, and then you move in with an immensely superiorly armed force and you round up the ringleaders. You don't give them the slightest hope of success. If the situation becomes lethal and they start firing off an old rusty assault rifle, you don't pull out an old rusty rifle and start fighting back. You have a sniper from 5 blocks down the road shoot him in the torso and drop him in a split second. Or you have a remote-controlled drone blow his head off. Or you have the gunmen on a nearby vehicle splatter him on the road. You do anything other than respond proportionately. It's so obvious the situation is highly political, because only in the political arena could such ridiculous arguments sustain themselves. If they whine and try to gain leverage by saying that the response was disproportionate, you ignore them. If they say you're cowards for using such means, you ignore them. If they say you're arrogant for ignoring them, you ignore them. It's not a sport event. You don't play fairly and it doesn't matter what they think about you. You just do whatever is best to subdue the problem while minimizing the risk for your (in this case, drafted) soldiers.
The big dilemma is when disproportionate force (which is what any half-competent person would use) also leads to lots of collateral damage. It's one thing to shoot down a belligerent guy with a gun. When a mom or kid gets killed, that is twice as effective at fueling the flame. When Israel did those chain of strikes three(?) years back that resulted in lots of collateral damage, it basically indirectly recruited several thousand anti-Israel militants for the future. So why did it use so many aerial strikes? Why not use special forces & ground forces, where you have better control? It's impossible to 100% eliminate collateral damage due to human error, but you can certainly minimize it if you use on-the-scene personnel, ya? Well, part of the reason is that an air/missile strike has a lethal speed to it that ground personnel can't imitate. But another reason is because of the risk that is involved. You can take measures to minimize collateral damage, but those same measures also inevitably involve more Israeli soldiers getting killed. Israeli soldiers whose mommies and daddies are registered voters back on the west Israeli coast. Israeli soldiers who were largely drafted and are thus, by definition, slaves. Israeli soldiers that probably don't want to be in the military for a career and are just performing their national service, whether they do patriotically or grudgingly. So the brass is stuck between a rock and a hard place: they can strive to avoid collateral damage as much as possible, which will greatly increase the risk of having some Israeli body bags, or they can use safer measures, which will greatly increase the risk of collateral damage. It's not surprising which approach ends up winning out, even if it's not necessarily the best option for long term stability. And it goes without saying that the angry, poor Palestinian community will interpret those air strikes as deliberate attacks on noncombatants and children, because the Israeli brass obviously think that intentionally blowing up Palestinians and whipping them up into a frenzy is a very intelligent idea.
You can't expect any significant progressions with the current state of things. You need mutual leadership on the two fronts that is willing to take sacrificial blows to their interests, which is harder than ever to find while the country is also in risky economic straits. One of the "easiest" things you can do though is to adopt a strategy that places more risk on the Israeli soldiers. This will cause less collateral damage and lower the rage-meter of the Palestinians. Israel's strategy in recent years isn't far off from the US strategy in Pakistan. The difference is geography. Pakistanis hate us Americans, but the great news is that there's an ocean in between us and them. So the Pakistanis can't really do much of anything other than clench their fists and entertain fantasies in their mind. This gives the US the luxury of a more reckless strategy while simultaneously having a limited risk of backlash. Palestine, on the other hand, is inside the same national borders as Israel. It's next door. That makes Israel far more vulnerable, and - unpopular though it may be - it needs to adopt a strategy that puts a higher risk on its soldiers.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 07, 2012 08:30 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 20:31, 07 Aug 2012.
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@Zenofex
I don't know what to do. I wish I did. But how can you change the mentality of a whole nation? Especially, when it's trapped in the vicious circle of violence that only enhances the hatred.
@Doom
You make it sound as though Israel's pride is the only thing stopping the peace process. Both sides are stubborn as hell. I'd even say that currently it's the Palestinians who refuse to talk, but I may be biased here. The situation here isn't simple. And finding the way to solve is even more complicated. Otherwise, it would've been solved already.
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Doomforge
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posted August 07, 2012 11:31 PM |
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@Geny
Not really, I'm not accusing anyone. I simply think that the situation isn't complicated - it's just not something a squad of F-16s can take care of (and that is the preferred way of UN's peacekeeping).
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Elodin
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posted August 08, 2012 07:55 PM |
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Israel has made concession after concession. None of them has lead to peace. The other side does not want peace. They want all the land and lots of dead Jews.
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Elodin
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posted August 17, 2012 10:31 PM |
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Ahmadinejad the Mad is at it again.
Clicky
Quote:
Israel's existence is an "insult to all humanity," Iran's president said Friday in one of his sharpest attacks yet against the Jewish state, as Israel openly debates whether to attack Iran over its nuclear program.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said confronting Israel is an effort to "protect the dignity of all human beings."
"The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity," Ahmadinejad said. He was addressing worshippers at Tehran University after nationwide pro-Palestinian rallies, an annual event marking Quds (Jerusalem) Day on the last Friday of the holy month of Ramadan.
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Israel considers Iran an existential threat because of its nuclear and missile programs, support for radical anti-Israel groups on its borders and repeated references by Iranian leaders to Israel's destruction.
Ahmadinejad himself has repeatedly made such calls, as has Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
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Ahmadinejad called Israel "a corrupt, anti-human organized minority group standing up to all divine values."
"Today, confronting the existence of the fabricated Zionist regime is in fact protecting the rights and dignity of all human beings," said Ahmadinejad, with a black and white scarf many Palestinians wear around his neck.
Iran and Israel have been bitter enemies for decades. Khamenei has called Israel a "cancerous tumor" that must be wiped out.
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The Iranian president has also described the Holocaust, when 6 million Jews were killed by German Nazis and their collaborators during World War II, as a "myth."
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Seraphim
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posted August 17, 2012 11:27 PM |
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Its really hard to sympathize with jews.
At the olympics they complained that they OIC did not adress the death of the jew athletes some 30 years ago.
They scream about this bus incident.
And so on and on...
They scream every time something happens to them, as if the snowing planet owes them something.
Seriously, people die in the dozens every day because of bombs,violence,guns etc etc.
Why the hell do you think the world should care about Israeli citizens more?
Nuclear program? The world has done enough. Military intervention is suicide for the US with all the recession. A war will skyrocket the oil prices.
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Zenofex
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posted August 17, 2012 11:41 PM |
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Ahmadinejad is getting almost as repetitive as Elodin (a hard task indeed), but while he's just throwing his usual propaganda crap at the masses, Israel is hardly wasting its time*.
*Of course all this could be a fabrication or even intentional mystification but the likelihood to see another war in the Middle East soon is high enough and this should be obvious for everybody.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 17, 2012 11:48 PM |
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Of course they scream. That's the only way someone will even consider listening in this world. And no one's saying that they're more important than anyone else, it's just they won't speak up for the whole world. They have enough problems of their own to deal with. If someone else has something on their mind, they are free to scream about it as well.
The athletes who died in a terrorist act in Munich - why is it so wrong to ask for a minute of silence in their memory? There's nothing political in that. Just respect for the dead.
The bus incident? Let me put it this way, if (God forbid) the citizens of your country would get killed abroad and your government won't scream their heads of to try and catch the people responsible then it's high time you replace your government.
And as for Iran, regardless of how it is done, I think you can understand why Israel isn't thrilled about having a country stating that "Israel is a cancerous tumor that must be wiped out" owning nuclear weapons.
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Zenofex
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posted August 17, 2012 11:58 PM |
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Quote:
Let me put it this way, if (God forbid) the citizens of your country would get killed abroad and your government won't scream their heads of to try and catch the people responsible then it's high time you replace your government.
Not that I disagree with you but I don't see Israel wanting to catch the responsible (or, at the very least, this appears to be a second priority task) but looking for an excuse to start bombarding Iran. Moralising on this ground is very slippery.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 18, 2012 12:05 AM |
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If it will come to attacking Iran, the bus incident probably won't be mentioned at all. I haven't heard anyone talk about for a while now.
Btw, the last thing I did hear is that Bulgarian officials say it might take years to uncover who was behind the bombing.
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Zenofex
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posted August 18, 2012 12:16 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 00:17, 18 Aug 2012.
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I mean the reaction of Netanyahu who pointed his finger at Iran literally hours after the explosion - this isn't the reaction of someone who wants to catch the responsible but of someone who wants to use the occasion to gain political support for other actions.
As for the investigation of the bus explosion itself - there's a reproduction of the facial features of the alleged bomber already available, his fake identity is also known and the details about the origin of the bomb and its importation in Bulgaria - whole or in pieces - are currently being worked on. I doubt that it will take years, in fact the true identity of the terrorist could already be clear - unofficially that is.
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Elodin
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posted August 18, 2012 02:29 AM |
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The bombing occurred on the anniversary of another bombing on Israeli citizens that Iran was involved in so it was quite a logical conclusion Iran was involved in the latest bombing as well. Of course some people are so anti-Israeli that they will condemn the Jews when the Jews are the ones murdered. Nothing new there though.
And at this point it has been confirmed an Iranian terrorist backed group was indeed responsible.
Clicky
Quote:
One senior American official said the current American intelligence assessment was that the bomber, who struck Wednesday, killing five Israelis, had been “acting under broad guidance” to hit Israeli targets when opportunities presented themselves, and that the guidance had been given to Hezbollah, a Lebanese militant group, by Iran, its primary sponsor. Two other American officials confirmed that Hezbollah was behind the bombing, but declined to provide additional details.
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Zenofex
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posted August 18, 2012 02:54 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 03:00, 18 Aug 2012.
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It is also quite logical that the Iranian nuclear scientists (read it as "citizens of Iran" if it sounds better to you) aren't dying a natural death and the "sponsor" of their premature travel to Allah is Israel but of course your head has no mechanism to even trigger a thought about that and on the other hand I don't see a preparation to invade Israel as an alleged act of "vengeance", disable its infrastructure and kill who-knows-how-many people.
Let me put it straight for all non-Elodin people in this topic - I don't approve of killing defenseless civilians for whatever political reason but neither side is innocent in this conflict. As they are officially (Israel - Hezbollah) and unofficially (Israel - Iran) in war, the typical war behaviour applies to their actions - i.e. life is expendable, especially the life of the enemy - so moralising is pointless. Iran won't go down overnight though and if it gets attacked, the consequences for the region and even for the world could quickly become uncontrollable. The economical impact alone could be too much to bear, given that the global economic crisis is far from over. The other possible repercussions are easy to imagine.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 18, 2012 03:45 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 03:47, 18 Aug 2012.
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Quote:
The athletes who died in a terrorist act in Munich - why is it so wrong to ask for a minute of silence in their memory? There's nothing political in that.
Except that those people who protested made it into the main news and screamed "Injustice".
People died, you want to make a honour? Go to their graves. The olympics are not there to mourn tragedies.
Quote:
The bus incident? Let me put it this way, if (God forbid) the citizens of your country would get killed abroad and your government won't scream their heads of to try and catch the people responsible then it's high time you replace your government.
People from my country get killed. There was even an incident some weeks ago. Nobody gives a damn about that. Change goverment? Hmm, not everybody gets aid from the US and has as much time as Jews for people.
Whenever some 50, 60 ro so people die in Iraq, you dont see the media screaming "Injustice".
Ahh, I dont see any jews in this forum posting this:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/iran-nuclear-bereaved-sue-britain-16198178.html
Oh,killing some tourists is immoral and bad, killing iranian people is ok. Why dont I see some media outlets screaming about how innocent people got killed by the Israeli mossad? If mossad is a goverment agency, then Israel admiitted a terroist act and is responsible for the murder of innocent people. Even Iran tries to keep its links to hezoblah unofficial. Israel on the other hand is bold on this, very bold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations
Isarel does not have moral high ground here.
If israel is so keen on war, maybe the US should pull support on Israel so that they tone their voice a bit lower. I dont see Iran wanting to initiate a war with a nuclear state, Israel on the otherhand is all getting tight and ready for war. Israel is like a school bully in this scenario.
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