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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Morality of cheating a casino
Thread: Morality of cheating a casino
friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
posted September 08, 2012 10:32 AM
Edited by Corribus at 22:21, 16 Jun 2013.

Morality of cheating a casino

There's several movies and books out there that tell the stories of people that have successfully cheated casinos.  I'm not talking about the movie with the blackjack card counting - it would be hard to find somebody that thinks that is immoral.  I'm talking about movies like Ocean's eleven where the protagonists take a casino for millions of dollars.  There was no violence in that movie, you could view the entire thing as trickery.

There's also a long history of schemes where players will connive with dealers to cheat the casino, or hack the electronics in slot machines, or even study dice rolling so much that they can win at craps whenever they want.  The law will surely punish them, but that's not the question.  The question is if you think it's immoral.

At this point in time I'm having a hard time seeing immorality in it.  Anybody care to take a contrarion view?

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VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted September 08, 2012 10:40 AM

Read this novel click. Its the best that can be said about casinos.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Soli deo gloria
posted September 08, 2012 10:53 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 10:54, 08 Sep 2012.

I consider casinos and slot machines to be nothing more than lawful theft, but one ill turn does not condone another.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 08, 2012 06:05 PM

Quote:
The question is if you think it's immoral.

Yes, its immoral.
The reasoning is simple, people have a clear choice of not playing casino games. If you play someones game where your odds at winning are low, its your fault. Trying to cheat makes the whole thing even dumber because you agreed on the game rules(No cheating). In otherwords, cheating in this case equals fraud, like a business contract.

For most of us, gambling is one of the few things in life that is bad and we can avoid completely.

Trying to cheat just tresspasses the "Agreement" you made when you entered the casino. Its not a matter of how moral your action is, its a matter of how rational it is and cheating is neither moral or rational in this case,

Gambling is only for people who consider money nothing but paper to throw away, rich people for example dont have a problem with spending 75k for a game.


Quote:

At this point in time I'm having a hard time seeing immorality in it.  Anybody care to take a contrarion view?

Quite weird to feel that way.
Just because the guys in the casino say "here is a game where the odds of winning are one in a billion,come play!" does not mean that cheating in that game is not immoral.
Gamling is bad business and if you cheat, you are a criminal.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Alone in the Forest
posted September 08, 2012 07:00 PM

Casinos are institutionalized thievery so it's more like stealing from a thief. The question is not whether that is moral but whether one cares.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted September 09, 2012 12:20 AM

I don't see how a casino is anything resembling thievery.  Nobody forces people to spend money there.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Prince of Poetry
posted September 09, 2012 01:21 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 04:02, 09 Sep 2012.

Cheating at any group game means that you're destroying the already poor chances of all the other participating patrons. Even if you make the leap of saying that because you believe casinos are a destructive form of entertainment, and therefore breaking the rules is justified, you still need to answer to the fact that you're making it even worse for other patrons at the expense of your own gain, which would reserve you to cheating only at individual games.

Of course as has been said already; nobody is riding up to you on a chariot, throwing a net around you, and dragging you inside the casino, where you are then put into shackles and forced up to the table where you must spend your money or face the lions in the arena. The odds are stacked against the spender, but that's common knowledge and people know that when they walk through the door. It's also worth pointing out the psychological thrill of the casino: the fact that the odds are against them is precisely what makes it fun for so many people. That and the fact that if the odds were in the user's favor, casinos would be an inherently unsustainable business enterprise.
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Thunder_Titus
Thunder_Titus


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
Inventor
posted September 09, 2012 02:29 AM

live is very dangerous so watch out
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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


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Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
posted September 09, 2012 09:40 AM

@Seraphim
You make a convincing argument that the immorality stems from the breaking of the 'agreement' that you enter into when you enter the casino.   I'm not entirely convinced however the breaking of an agreement in this circumstance would be immoral.  BTW I'm not denying that legally it's a crime, I'm only probing its morality.

I, as well as many people in this thread, hold a low opinion of gambling establishments.  They are organizations that will happily take an entire person's life savings without any compunction whatsoever.  To my eyes the thing they offer doesn't resemble a product or service.  In fact to me it resembles more of a parasitic apparatus, where they draw money from genetically susceptible individuals.  If I met a person that cheated a casino through sheer cleverness I would probably offer them my congratulations.  Nor would I be tempted to notify the authorities as I would with pretty much any other crime.


BlizzardBoy
Quote:
Cheating at any group game means that you're destroying the already poor chances of all the other participating patrons.


I should have put in an additional disclaimer that omitted poker.  I'm strictly referring to cheating the casino itself.  As far as I know besides poker a win for you does not lessen the chances of a win for somebody else.



So here's a set of three questions for Seraphim, Tsar-Ivor, or anybody else that considered it immoral.

1.  Would you cheat a casino if you knew that you wouldn't get caught?  Let's make a hypothetical scenario for example where you meet a person on a train and he tells you that he made the computer chips that are used in slot machines.  He then tells you about a timing sequence that you can use to hit the $25,000 jackpot.  He'll give you the sequence if you give him a third of the money.  The reason he's telling you, a complete stranger, about it is because if he co-opted any of his friends or acquaintances it might lead back to him.

2.  That scenario is still rooted in the real world however, which means there is still a remote chance of getting caught.  So move the question into the purely hypothetical plane and then answer it.  Would you cheat a casino if there was absolutely no way that you would be caught?

3.  In the beginning post I mentioned the guy who learned how to game the craps table .  That was a true story.  A guy bought a craps table, put it in his garage, and then spent every day for six months learning how to roll dice (at a specific location at the craps table) so that they could come  up the way he wanted.  Would you consider that immoral?

@Vokial
Thanks for the suggestion

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 09, 2012 12:29 PM

Casinos and their similar establishments benefit from the human stupidity/stubbornness combo like many other but the difference is that in their case the participants will lose nothing if they don't participate. The fact that the casinos "help" the gamblers lose much more often than they win changes little - it's entirely up to the individual to risk his/her money for an extremely low chance to win more than he/she bets, especially given that he/she's aware of the chances. I.e. if you're dumb, the problem is yours and will likely manifest itself not only when you gamble.
To the questions:
Quote:
1.  Would you cheat a casino if you knew that you wouldn't get caught?
I wouldn't enter one in the first place.
Quote:
Would you cheat a casino if there was absolutely no way that you would be caught?
Same as above.
Quote:
In the beginning post I mentioned the guy who learned how to game the craps table .  That was a true story.  A guy bought a craps table, put it in his garage, and then spent every day for six months learning how to roll dice (at a specific location at the craps table) so that they could come  up the way he wanted.  Would you consider that immoral?
No. The casino is using similar mechanism to lower his chances, he's just... evening the odds. Can't see anything wrong with that, except maybe the wasted time.

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted September 09, 2012 12:50 PM

FriendOfGunnar:
1. Cheat the profitable? Yes
2. If I can't get caught? Still yes
3. Getting enough skill to remove random chance? Thats not cheating, and yes I would, if it garantes me reasonable amounts of cash.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted September 09, 2012 03:02 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 15:05, 09 Sep 2012.

Quote:
I'm not entirely convinced however the breaking of an agreement in this circumstance would be immoral.


Depends how you look at it. Evening the odds is the right thing to do in such cases but the way how its done is questionable.
Thats because you accepted a contract. Its like business, once you accept it, you have to go with it. If you dont want to go, cancel it if its possible. Same here.




Quote:
They are organizations that will happily take an entire person's life savings without any compunction whatsoever.


I think you are being a bit naive here. Any organization that you would owe money, would happily take all your belongings if you could not pay. It depends on the contract and the country but its generaly the same everywhere..."Cough" "Cough"  Banks.


Quote:

To my eyes the thing they offer doesn't resemble a product or service.

I guess you are one of those types that consider joy nothing of value.
People who go into casinos enjoy the games, the people etc. If its a bad deal its their problem.  They lose all that money for the little "thrill".

Quote:

In fact to me it resembles more of a parasitic apparatus, where they draw money from genetically susceptible individuals.


You are aware that our society is built on that?
Those who have money survive.
In our free market world, there are a "lot" of bad deals. Say, if you get dumbfounded that you bought a soda for 2 instead of 1, would you call markets parasitic appartus?






Quote:

1.  Would you cheat a casino if you knew that you wouldn't get caught?  


It really depends. In real world, I would never go for it because of the risk and the fact that I hate casinos.
Winning a casino game,if its 100% certain, is a good deal. Hypothetically, I would go for it, but just once.

Quote:

2.  That scenario is still rooted in the real world however, which means there is still a remote chance of getting caught.  


Short answer, no.


Quote:

3.  In the beginning post I mentioned the guy who learned how to game the craps table .  That was a true story.  A guy bought a craps table, put it in his garage, and then spent every day for six months learning how to roll dice (at a specific location at the craps table) so that they could come  up the way he wanted.  Would you consider that immoral?



Short answer, no. Even though that would increase your chances, that would not make it cheating because you are not using anything special to achieve that.


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philipmorgann
philipmorgann

Tavern Dweller
posted April 13, 2018 08:30 PM

Casinos in general aren't a scam, well at least they don't belong to a typical one. If you play them, first of all you should remember that it's gambling so your wins or loses will be always a total luck and you can't become a better player in this case. For example, in case of card games it's possible to improve your playing skills but that's not possible for casinos, lotteries and so on. And the second thing is that house always wins :eusa_drool: All that casino system is made in such way that you'll anyway give them more money than you'll win. They manipulate people with the idea of easy winning of big money but that's not truth. Personally I like gambling and I'm lucky sometimes in case of casinos but I've never won really a great amount of money. And it's always such a temptation to try more and more after your lucky prize...:razz:
So my opinion is that playing casinos for fun is ok but you should always control your budget for them and don't concentrate too much on possible wins.
Also I should mention that real scam exists for them too but it's almost always for online ones http://www.slotozilla.com/ so you should be very careful with choosing them for playing. In better cases you'll just win nothing, in worse ones you can lose all money from your bank cards.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
It's Erwin Usual To Make Love
posted April 13, 2018 09:11 PM

philipmorgann said:
Casinos in general aren't a scam, well at least they don't belong to a typical one. If you play them, first of all you should remember that it's gambling so your wins or loses will be always a total luck and you can't become a better player in this case. For example, in case of card games it's possible to improve your playing skills but that's not possible for casinos, lotteries and so on. And the second thing is that house always wins :eusa_drool: All that casino system is made in such way that you'll anyway give them more money than you'll win. They manipulate people with the idea of easy winning of big money but that's not truth. Personally I like gambling and I'm lucky sometimes in case of casinos but I've never won really a great amount of money. And it's always such a temptation to try more and more after your lucky prize...:razz:
So my opinion is that playing casinos for fun is ok but you should always control your budget for them and don't concentrate too much on possible wins.
Also I should mention that real scam exists for them too but it's almost always for online ones http://www.downloadmoreram.com/ so you should be very careful with choosing them for playing. In better cases you'll just win nothing, in worse ones you can lose all money from your bank cards.


what the **** is this supposed to be lol
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Prince of Poetry
posted April 13, 2018 09:38 PM

blizzardboy said:
Cheating at any group game means that you're destroying the already poor chances of all the other participating patrons. Even if you make the leap of saying that because you believe casinos are a destructive form of entertainment, and therefore breaking the rules is justified, you still need to answer to the fact that you're making it even worse for other patrons at the expense of your own gain, which would reserve you to cheating only at individual games.

Of course as has been said already; nobody is riding up to you on a chariot, throwing a net around you, and dragging you inside the casino, where you are then put into shackles and forced up to the table where you must spend your money or face the lions in the arena. The odds are stacked against the spender, but that's common knowledge and people know that when they walk through the door. It's also worth pointing out the psychological thrill of the casino: the fact that the odds are against them is precisely what makes it fun for so many people. That and the fact that if the odds were in the user's favor, casinos would be an inherently unsustainable business enterprise.




Damn. This answer from 2012 is totally kick ass. I must have been eating a lot of toxic chalk that week.
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annamccarthy
annamccarthy

Tavern Dweller
posted May 25, 2018 12:42 PM

No, not all of them are scam, there are many online casinos in which you can win money. But before starting to play you should remember that main goal of such games is making money from you, not giving you a chance to become rich so the opposite expectations in this case are really funny  And game is always a luck so concentrating only on money, not the fun from general process will always dissapoint you. Besides prizes in case of online casinos are usually really small, for example, in my case the biggest amount of money I've ever won was 50$ and I can say that it's a good prize in general. Of course sometimes people win much bigger amounts of money but that happens really rare and I noticed earlier why.
And yeah, you can really win smth only if it's a safe casino, not a scam and there many of them, however using some special tips will help you to avoid such bad ones. For example, experienced players usually use Gonzosquest Netent Slot http://gonzosquest-netent-slot.com/ with various types of such games and always check reviews and rank about the certain ones. You should pay attention on date of casino's creation too, it it was made not so long ago, then it's a great possibility that it's a scam. Testing customers support firstly is important too, as also their payment methods and general terms and rules. Personally I always make questions in additions, if I don't understand smth, it's really better than having problems later with your money and credit cards. There are special articles with more useful tips for new players.
Also I can recommend as the safe ones Sloty, Guts and Highroller casinos, I play them for a long time and I've never had any problems with them. Good luck if you want to try too!
What means nothing for you, means everything for me (c)
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fred79
fred79


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Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted May 25, 2018 12:54 PM

yeah, no.

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Rise
Rise

Tavern Dweller
posted June 01, 2018 06:57 PM
Edited by Rise at 18:58, 01 Jun 2018.

Very difficult topic. I think there is no right answer.
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