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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: What the **** is wrong with these people?!
Thread: What the **** is wrong with these people?! This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 07, 2013 09:32 PM

What the **** is wrong with these people?!

The people behind things like this. Leonardo da Vinci? What's next? "The Lord of the Alchemists" with Mendeleev (Brad Pitt)? Lincoln's already part of the crew...
So where is the border between the right of "artistic" expression and the ridiculousness?

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smithey
smithey


Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
posted January 07, 2013 09:46 PM
Edited by smithey at 21:48, 07 Jan 2013.

Starz have discovered that people love history, action and naked women hence Leo is here to replace spartacus.... I dont care how ridiculous the show is, if its set a few hundred years ago Im checking it out... Rome (HBO) was awesome, Deadwood was cool, Sharpe was nice, spartacus, Tudors, Borgias,

and the upcoming Vikings (2013) !!!!

Trailer

All on my to do list... History is full of potential

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted January 07, 2013 09:47 PM

Watched the trailer, didn't see anything wrong with it.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
posted January 07, 2013 09:52 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 21:55, 07 Jan 2013.

Fictional swashbuckling Da Vinci battling the forces of subterfuge and darkness.

Sounds like it has potential to me, although I found the lack of decapitated cadavers to be disturbing.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 07, 2013 10:17 PM

I think it looks awesome!
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 07, 2013 10:31 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 22:31, 07 Jan 2013.

Forget it, I should rename the topic to "What the **** is wrong with you people?!"

Seriously now, I'm trying to make a point here, please don't turn the thread into another VW material full of one-liners.

Quote:
Starz have discovered that people love history, action and naked women
Except that this crap has nothing to do with history and the other two things have been discovered waaaay before these Starz decided to turn a major historical figure into the yet-another-Legolas-who-****-between-the-CGI-stunts. Don't get me wrong, I like to have mindless fun from time to time but my brain switch doesn't work if the "mindless" part is too literal. Besides, the trailer is the typical clichéd garbage, you have piles of its likes in youtube and... well, everywhere.

That's not the main part though, focus on this please:

Quote:
So where is the border between the right of "artistic" expression and the ridiculousness?

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smithey
smithey


Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
posted January 07, 2013 10:57 PM
Edited by smithey at 23:01, 07 Jan 2013.

Quote:
Except that this crap has nothing to do with history and the other two things have been discovered waaaay before these Starz decided to turn a major historical figure into the yet-another-Legolas-who-****-between-the-CGI-stunts. Don't get me wrong, I like to have mindless fun from time to time but my brain switch doesn't work if the "mindless" part is too literal. Besides, the trailer is the typical clichéd garbage, you have piles of its likes in youtube and... well, everywhere.


Its happening 500+ years ago and Leo is a historical figure so it has something to do with history, since there are witches, demons or whatever in it, its obvious to everyone it is a fictional history...

If your mind doesnt like it, you shouldnt watch it, rather simple... And I beg the difference, there arent piles of such trailers coz as I have stated already there arent that many "historical" tv shows, I actually rather enjoy those, so whether its something amazing like band of brothers or something shallow as spartacus one fact remains unchanged, I enjoy it and thats what tv shows are there for...

Quote:
That's not the main part though, focus on this please:

So where is the border between the right of "artistic" expression and the ridiculousness?


I dont think there is anything artistic in tv shows as the main goal of any tv show is to be fun and to attract the wide audience, the concept wide audience = masses, masses usually (always) includes a whole bunch of... less evolved people (or in another word - average and below average humans)... If you however dont agree with that statement and think tv shows are artistic, I can respect that view but in that case the answer would be there is no such thing as the border between the right of artistic expression and the ridiculousness simply coz art is in the eyes of the beholder, ridiculous to you, mindblowing to Blizz etc or in other words SUBJECTIVE !!!!

I really dont get why are u getting angry over... well entertainment...

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 07, 2013 11:05 PM

Quote:
So where is the border between the right of "artistic" expression and the ridiculousness?



I like your question.

I think that there is no real border. That series is ridiculous for many rational reasons. However, dont ignore the fact that these types of movies are the thing nowadays.
As long as the viewer enjoys it, its ok to overlook the fact that the entire story is a fabulation.
The average viewer will not find any problem with this
It only gets "Ridiculous" when even with the liberties of story telling and CGI the series remains or starts bad.
Afterall, all series have a tendence to get worse over the time they go on so only the start matters,so as to get you hooked on.
There have been many series based on "Hostorical" events. One I can remember is a series about Rome and another about the Borgia's.
I can guess that they did the same to real history. They took a bit of history as a flavour, and redid or changed everything else.
I can remind you a popular series of games that does the same thing: Assassins Creed.

Point of the matter is, I can see why you are so bothered by this. Fact of the metter is, no matter how you wrap it, real history or reality, will never surpass fantasy or fiction. At times, they can be equal but liberties of fiction and fantasy not only make these types of series,movies,games more acessable to the population but they also make the writing alot more easier and attractive aswell.

Whats better, retelling the real history of Da Vinci, which would require hours of study, travel and possibly end up making a boring intro and not get enough viewers or be sucessful and use a bit of fantasy to both make the movie look better and be attractive.
Heck, that trailer made me hooked up on it aswell because I enjoyed Assasins Creed 2 and that guy just used that elevator thing from Brotherhood.

Point is, immersion and sensationalism > Reality amd accuracy.



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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
posted January 07, 2013 11:11 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 23:15, 07 Jan 2013.

The show is a self-defined historical/fiction hybrid, or an alternate history. It's not like the producers are overtly lying to people. Assassin's Creed does the same thing. I'm not saying the show is good because it definitely is at risk of being cheesy, but I don't see any huge warning signals shooting up.
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Vindicator
Vindicator


Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
posted January 07, 2013 11:11 PM

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I like to have mindless fun from time to time but my brain switch doesn't work if the "mindless" part is too literal. Besides, the trailer is the typical clichéd garbage, you have piles of its likes in youtube and... well, everywhere.


If someone were forcing you to watch this, I could see your point of view, but otherwise it makes no sense. You don't like it? Don't watch it.

Quote:
So where is the border between the right of "artistic" expression and the ridiculousness?


You seem to have higher standards than the rest of us (not meant to be an insult) and consider a lot of things ridiculous. I, for one, think this is a good idea and will make a cool show. Besides, who said this was for "artistic expression" anyway? Seems to me like this is for entertainment, and only that.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 08, 2013 12:28 AM

There is no border because art is subjective.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 08, 2013 12:28 AM

I don't think that history used as a background flavor is the real problem, come to think of it, great literature does that too. The problem is Hollywood thinks people always want bigger, faster, stronger and with the potential of CGI technology in these last years action shows and movies lost all the feeling of believability. I am not talking about realism, I am talking about common sense. LOTR was fine for example but they had to carry it on step further too, it had to be bigger, faster, stronger... And  now we have the absurd Goblin scene of The Hobbit: AUJ which feels more like a computer game, 13 dwarves squashing hundreds of Goblins without even one of them taking a scratch.

I was expecting something really stupid with Lincoln the Vampire Hunter but then it didn't start so bad after all, however once the big CGI stuff landed in, it turned into this moronic circus I was expecting in the first place. In one scene a vampire struggles fighting a man then in the other one he's throwing away horses like footballs... What is his strength? Decide on a scale! But no, they have to put in the horse throwing CGI snow just to guarantee the 14 year old audience. While all the rest of us are no longer engaged in what we see because it feels like a slide show of absurdity.  

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Vindicator
Vindicator


Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
posted January 08, 2013 12:31 AM

Quote:
13 dwarves squashing hundreds of Goblins without even one of them taking a scratch.


This never happened...
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 08, 2013 12:34 AM

Well, they did take a few scratches after falling down a pit. It was a figure of speech.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
posted January 08, 2013 12:43 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 06:58, 08 Jan 2013.

Yeah I don't like that either, unless within the context of the movie the events are intended to be hyperbolized, such as with 300. I'm not sure you could call it a recent phenomenon though; there are countless action movies in the 60s-80s you could name where the protagonist seems to have a time-space displacement field around him that renders the hordes of bad guys hopelessly incapable of aiming properly. It's just that with computer animation and editing they have new ways of creating over-the-top situations.  

I mean I can tolerate and even enjoy hyperbole to a certain extent, but sometimes they just don't know when to stop.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted January 08, 2013 12:48 AM

That cast needs an Ezio Auditore.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 08, 2013 02:28 AM

Quote:
there are countless action movies in the 60s-80s you could name where the protagonist seems to have a time-space displacement field around him that renders the hordes of bad guys hopelessly incapable of aiming properly.


Well, in a way I agree, I watched Where Eagles Dare a while ago, and it seemed like all of Wehrmacht was trained to miss. Still, I didn't get the feeling that the protagonists were super human. The fight scene in the cable car was much better than many of the contemporary likes of it because you thought that it could actually happen, slim possibility maybe, but it didn't cause your five senses to revolt. What I'm specifically talking about is that: They go so over the top nowadays even if you want to let go you can't because your brain isn't developed to percept the physical world that way, you feel cheated even though you know it's fiction.

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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted January 08, 2013 10:10 AM

there is nothing wrong with these people.

they are just tapping into the great desire for a movie where it turns out, Da Vinci wasn't a genius, but he could see the future, and so that's what makes "Academics" think he's a genius, whilst we know the the truth that he was actually looking at our greatness, and merely trying to emulate it.

It's making Cletus and Joanne Q Public feel better about themselves, saying that geniuses aren't really that special, they just had magical stuff happen to them. Either that, or it's about how thinking too hard makes you go insane.

remember, we've got to think about what Cletus and Joanne want from movies when making them.
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GunFred
GunFred


Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
posted January 08, 2013 04:21 PM

I love history in general and I am usually alright with movies and stuff that tweaks things a little but I have to side with Zeno on this one. That trailer looked serious yet felt like a parody.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 08, 2013 10:31 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 22:32, 08 Jan 2013.

OK, one by one.

First of all, the whole "art is subjective" thing is nothing but an excuse for fat, slow, lazy brain cells that have fallen victims to the worst of the formal education and social stereotypes. People may have different perceptions about what forms of art they like and what not but in order to qualify something as "art", it has to meet certain intellectual and/or emotional standards which are not exactly basic (at least thus far) and are not set by the individuals as such. The "art is entirely subjective" is a nonsense for another reason as well - if it can't be qualified as an "art" (in this case - something worthy of appreciation) outside the personal world of one individual, it has no value for the other people and the entire society and can never become a cultural phenomenon. The whole concept is social.

Next - whether something is a real piece of art or just crap for oneself is also not entirely subjective, no matter how paradoxical this may seem from the outside. The... let's call it "ability to evaluate" something depends on one's built-in intellectual and emotional potential plus the development of this potential as a result with the interactions with the environment of all kinds throughout the life of that person. A simple example - you could think that the women in your town are all gorgeous but you have never left it; then one day you travel to another town and find out that the women in your town are ugly compared to what the other town has to offer (or the other way around); and then you travel even more and change your opinion further, etc. In the end you may come to the conclusion that the women in your town are actually not bad but also not incredible - however this conclusion would have been impossible if you have never started travelling (and through it - gaining impressions about the world) in the first place. The point is - the environment shapes your "ability to evaluate" to a large extent. This is a natural process, the artificial version of which is the intentional manipulation aimed at shaping the perception of a given group of people.

Then comes the problem with the authority, i.e. who decides what is art and what isn't. Shortly put - nobody personally, and that's probably another seemingly paradoxical point. This is not a process which occurs on individual level and is not guided by any single subject or formal group of subjects. The artist him/herself is an individual but the audience that has to proclaim him an artist is not a mechanical sum of individuals and has to share at least a degree of something common which the artist has managed to "affect". This audience is not gathered on purpose though but exactly the contrary - without any intentional purpose and its members will not even know each other in person in the vast number of cases. Of course spreading the fame of the artist could be a guided process (advertisements) but recognizing that fame is beyond any control. So in the end what is "art" and what isn't is decided by an unguided mass of people, each of them evaluating the piece at hand individually but ultimately contributing as part of that large, uncontrolled cultural community.

Anyway, with this general stuff in mind, moving to what is fantasy, what is fantasy art and what is crap. Another lame excuse which infests any shallow discussion about fantasy is that "it's not real", meaning in this case that you should not apply RL standards to it. Guess what - that's not even half true. Problem is with the human mind - it can't really imagine non-existent things, the most it can do is to change forms (but not substance), so in essence even the most fantastic universe is a reshaped version of the real world (otherwise it would not be comprehensible). The human perception can't be anything more than a human perception, that's that, period. As far as the "artistic" implementations of fantasy are concerned, they have to adhere to things which the regular human being finds exciting - thoughts, feelings, senses, stuff like that - yet these things also have to be believable, otherwise they will be ignored as untrue. So the limits of any fantasy is a degree of believability, under which it just ceases to be interesting.

Now why this Leonardo **** will ultimately suck (and I meant the trailer, Smithey, not the pseudo-historical series as a whole). Well, Leonardo is a real historical figure and as such, he's not incredibly flexible as a character, especially for those who know a thing or two about him. Putting him in a scenario where he's not part of the real history and is not his historical self simply changes him into a different person, he's no longer Leonardo. Just as successfully you can name him Caesar Casanova Pavlov and make whatever you like of him. However, the name Leonardo da Vinci is well-known and will serve as a cheap advertisement (because, if you haven't heard, Leonardo is cool) which will attenuate the attention for whatever crap there is actually in the series - at least initially. Q.E.D. I kind of detest such blatant attempts to make money out of someone's renown, eventually making a mockery of some major historical name. The rest is explained above.

Cinema is a form of art by the way.

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