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| Thread: SO MANY RULES AND LESS HEROES ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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JIVOTNOTO
Tavern Dweller
Beastmaster
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posted May 30, 2013 05:02 PM |
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SO MANY RULES AND LESS HEROES ?
Hi guys i have few question for u ...
When i enter GAMERANGER and host a game "8XM8 , 2 min , 80% , no nec. no natural born diplos ( Cyra , Raylan , Adela ) PRO only..
And everybody who enters always ask me for WCL rules and 160% or 200%
80% is not pro .... 8XM8 is a harsh template with major artifacts guarded by strong troops why u need to play on 200% when u don't have anything left free for taking on the map like Jebuss ?? several gold chests (sometimes) and mines free to take and everything else is guarded.
I play on 200 % only vs THE AI
i don't find any sens of 200 % vs human just wasting 1 month pushing E,E,E,E,E just looking fagot "Lots of Harpy" on the road and don't fight them... haaa u will say u are noob if so u r not pro all of u good players know that LOTS is sometimes A HORDE .... and because u have for example 11 pikeman and 5 archers u just wait like a idiot with full movement points and have a good rest of the hero like a bear having a winter season sleep 
map diff. just makes players wait a bit not fighting and from the moment they build capitol the game is the same as it is on 80% don'n matter if guards which u fight wait for better act. They don't get the chance to move ...
And so i go in to http://www.heroes-iii.com/ and read the rules by (SAG) - RESPECT to him ...
look at the templates and i don't see 8XM8 just fixed maps not from the deff. list game ...
downloaded the most played ones Jebuss and Balance for example and start to play on the rules how almost everybody likes to play ... So my opinion after a lots of games played by the rules is that the game is balanced to max and only the good timing and early dwells capturing gives u the WIN ... like the great Maretti who is animal type of player
But i think it's less interesting .... don't do this don't do that ... DON'T play HEROES .....
Don't get me wrong i win 70% of the games 30% i lose from guys who play on this maps from long time and don't make a single mistake
And my question is why u don't respect the game how it's created with no major rules ..... diplo is restricted .. why ? u think it's a matter of luck for a player who have's diplo to win... i don't think so ... diplo is dangerous if u give your enemy time to joint..
And about Necro i just don't like dead race with no natural moral ...
that's why i don't play necro ... i'm alive and i want to play with live races  Necromancery is not a big deal for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction ...
In my exp. i think that the real pro is the player who can win with no restrictions ... I play the bought sides and no rules is more complicated as funny as might sound. U have many things to expect from your enemy not just fight with the pure natural army and stack of Wyverns ..... similar army stacks similar battles makes the game INDIGO and less fun I THINK SO ...
NOW DROP YOUR ANGER ON ME MIGHTY RESTRICTION FANS >
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PlokiteWolf
Hired Hero
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posted May 30, 2013 06:09 PM |
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Finally someone who sees this as an issue 
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Grumpy4life
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heroes_player
Known Hero
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posted May 30, 2013 10:25 PM |
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I really love you writing style !
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 30, 2013 11:16 PM |
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Hm my guys don't want to play, they were given rule: don't look handbook for example (also I don't have permission to use Widsom, spell casts). Hm what's exist rule was good idea  Ok they ("HOMMers") get to fun. I don't think they are willing to do play many years.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted May 31, 2013 09:31 AM |
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i get fun of thinking about each turn, each move of the hero. I enjoy hard decisions each turn, and i enjoy hard fighting vs expert player. It's not much interesting to win over noob e.g. on Jebus who will stay in his starting zone till the end of week 4-5.
Regarding 80% - normally in online good players play 130 or 160% because AI plays best on 130+. 200% delays that game and is preferable choice for live games XL+u when you have 12+ hours for a game. At 80% AI is very stupid.
Regarding 8XM8:
1) original 8XM8 has error in template - blocked, disconnected zone
2) I never played it, so I can't say is it good or not. I don't have much time to study new template.
Regarding Diplo: it's hard to make interesting game for both sides if Diplo is allowed. This skill you can hardly counter with something else.
Regarding Necro:
normally this is VERY powerful race.
sometimes i offer to play Necro games...as an exception.
for bringing back Necro in normal game - I'm ok to consider WCL Rules changes. However for Necro it's really very hard to create balanced rules.
Regarding NO RULES:
normally it's fun for one player and no fun for another.
recently I played "no rules" game...template was 6LM10, L. i was Inferno and started demon farming. On week 3 i think i had >60 demons and was going to take tope when opponent decided to stop the game. Well, game lasted much longer than I expected because zones were very poor, roads were unpaved and I had some breaks due to family reasons...and believe me or not, i had no chance to break ANY WCL rule in this game. I had Diplo hero, but he was never offered to level up Diplo skill or join monster, I had no Log hero, Fly or DD
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I play HoMM3 at www.heroes-
III.com
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JIVOTNOTO
Tavern Dweller
Beastmaster
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posted May 31, 2013 06:45 PM |
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RESPECT
Tanks for the reply i'm new at this forums and i don't expect (SAG) to reply  ... I don't want to change any rules at all i was just curious to know do the top players determinate the skill of the player from this...
because many guys who agree to play on my rules .. with lots of talking before the game about (why no rules , why 80% not 200%) got raped so bad that i don't understand why the "F" they want to play on 200 when they can't win on 80 ?
And about 8XM8 / the template is included in the standard set by the game developer 3DO and has the following pattern: Zone 8 is not at all connected with others, and some areas with 4 connections that do not logically fit, indicating that flaw. which makes the game more interesting (u don't know from where your enemy is going to appear)
As for 6LM10 u meet your heroes by road
too early in game and diplo don't play at all ...
8XM8 is the only good template from the random map list
And about the bugs the game have to be restarted in two situations
1/ if your mines are guarded by troop level 3+ and u don't have chance collecting them in first or second day (which can be fatal if u play Fortres)
2/ if u meet your heroes by road (if buged u often meet in 1.3.1 or .1.4.1 ) if u don't meet before 2.1.1 the game is good to go
but bugs happen 1 of 10 games ... After all it's a random generator S**t HAPPENS
Like For example Jebuss is map which if u play with diplo it's going to be a total massacre the troops are big figures and the center of the map is full of them ...Not like 8XM8 XL+U spread all over the map
And on 8XM8 XL+u u can get EXp. Diplo and start jointing troops if u don't get a ugly surprise like TAZAR jumping in front of u with DD wearing the HANDCUFFS no diplo just 150 wyarans some good deff. 20-30
making u press Alt+f4 because the next turn u was on the way to joint 30 Green Dragons for free Timing attack is some nasty s**t
It happens very often when we play whit friends Tazar don't need diplo
All i'm saying if u like to play with rules u do so ... but that don't shows who is the most skilled player .. Heroes of Might and Magic is a true MASTERPIECE and for such logical game i think there is a logical reason foe each skill each magic each race don't u think so ?
As the way i see things people who can't get the right skills for the hero to win just forbid them so they can expect the def. army every battle ....(as for me i love the unknown) give's me the thrill ...The biggest mistake of people who are playing with no rules is they concentrate on getting Diplo as main thing in the game ..Which in some cases is nothing if u don't have expert "Air Magic" DD or Fly and your enemy do ...
I JUST SHARE MY OVERALL VIEW WITH U GUYS MUCH RESPECT TO ALL OF U WHO UNDERSTAND ME RESPECT TO THESE WHO DON'T TO I JUST LOVE THE SCENARIO JUST HOW (Jon Van Caneghem and New World Computing)DESIGN IT...
AS FOR THE RIGHTING I'M FROM BULGARIA AND MY ENGLISH IS SO F***d UP 
..EACE:..
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Biobob
Famous Hero
the Bobler
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posted June 01, 2013 12:03 AM |
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All above 130% just increases luck influence. If you are unlucky and not have any piles o' gold or treasures near, your probably not going to be able to afford one dwelling one day earlier. Same with diplomacy, just makes game more luck-dependant.
Necro is no problem either, just ban necromancy 
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JIVOTNOTO
Tavern Dweller
Beastmaster
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posted June 01, 2013 03:57 PM |
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Quote:
All above 130% just increases luck influence. If you are unlucky and not have any piles o' gold or treasures near, your probably not going to be able to afford one dwelling one day earlier. Same with diplomacy, just makes game more luck-dependant.
Necro is no problem either, just ban necromancy
About the luck here's some interesting facts for u ....
- Magic heroes
Skill Cle War Wit Her Nec Dru Bat Wiz Total
Air Magic 4 2 2 3 3 2 4 5 25
Archery 3 2 3 4 2 5 4 2 25
Armorer 3 1 4 4 2 3 4 1 22
Artillery 2 1 2 4 3 1 4 1 18
Ballistics 4 6 4 6 5 4 6 4 39
Diplomacy 7 4 2 3 4 4 3 4 31
Eagle Eye 6 8 10 4 7 7 5 8 55
Earth Magic 3 4 4 4 5 4 3 4 31
Estates 3 5 1 1 3 3 1 5 22
Fire Magic 2 3 1 5 2 1 2 2 18
First Aid 10 3 1 5 0 7 4 7 37
Intelligence 6 8 7 6 7 7 5 10 56
Leadership 2 3 1 1 0 2 4 4 17
Learning 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 32
Logistics 4 2 3 3 4 5 10 2 33
Luck 5 2 4 2 1 10 2 4 30
Mysticism 4 8 8 10 6 6 4 8 54
Navigation 5 4 6 2 5 2 0 1 25
Necromancy 0 4 4 4 10 0 2 0 24
Offense 4 1 2 4 3 1 7 1 23
Pathfinding 2 2 2 3 6 5 4 2 26
Resistance 2 0 0 3 1 1 4 0 11
Scholar 6 8 7 5 6 8 4 9 53
Scouting 3 2 2 3 2 2 4 2 22
Sorcery 5 10 8 6 7 6 6 8 56
Tactics 2 1 2 4 2 1 5 1 18
Water Magic 4 1 3 2 4 3 1 3 21
Wisdom 7 10 8 7 8 8 6 10 64
Total 112 112 112 112 112 112 112 112
- Might heroes
Skill Kni Ove Bea Dem Dkn Ran Bar Alc Total
Air Magic 3 1 1 2 2 1 3 4 17
Archery 5 6 7 6 5 8 7 5 49
Armorer 5 6 10 7 5 8 6 6 53
Artillery 5 8 8 5 5 6 8 4 49
Ballistics 8 7 6 6 7 4 8 6 52
Diplomacy 4 3 1 4 2 4 1 3 22
Eagle Eye 2 1 1 2 4 2 2 3 17
Earth Magic 2 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 24
Estates 6 4 1 3 0 2 2 4 22
Fire Magic 1 2 0 4 1 0 2 1 11
First Aid 2 1 6 1 0 3 1 2 16
Intelligence 1 1 1 2 5 2 1 4 17
Leadership 10 8 5 3 0 6 5 3 40
Learning 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 10 38
Logistics 5 8 8 10 5 5 7 6 54
Luck 3 1 2 2 1 6 3 1 19
Mysticism 2 3 2 3 4 3 3 4 24
Navigation 8 4 8 3 8 3 2 3 39
Necromancy 0 1 1 0 10 0 1 4 17
Offense 7 8 5 5 7 5 10 6 53
Pathfinding 4 5 8 4 4 7 8 4 44
Resistance 5 6 5 6 5 10 6 5 48
Scholar 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 3 12
Scouting 4 5 7 5 4 7 8 4 44
Sorcery 1 2 1 3 4 2 1 3 17
Tactics 7 10 6 6 5 5 7 4 50
Water Magic 4 0 2 1 3 2 0 2 14
Wisdom 3 3 2 4 6 3 2 5 28
Total 112 112 112 112 112 112 112 112
THE CLERIC's for example have diplomacy in the secondary skill offer 7 times of all the basics u get from new level ... test it you self
chose CASTLE and some of the Cleric heroes fight and see if u don't get diplo .... i already test it so i don't need luck u can say ...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 01, 2013 09:02 PM |
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Biobob will surely be thankful for reading the 1000th time the skills probabilities. By luck he meant other things, like the type and quantity of creatures offering to join. Imagine you start castle and you have stacks of archers around, is not same thing as joining imps or gremlins.
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JIVOTNOTO
Tavern Dweller
Beastmaster
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posted June 02, 2013 01:52 AM |
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Quote:
Biobob will surely be thankful for reading the 1000th time the skills probabilities. By luck he meant other things, like the type and quantity of creatures offering to join. Imagine you start castle and you have stacks of archers around, is not same thing as joining imps or gremlins.
60 % chance + 20 % if u have thy same type = 80 % if not the creatures just have balls >: no luck mat.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 02, 2013 02:09 AM |
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Is my english so bad so you can't get it? Diplo is pure luck. Let's assume both players start with a diplo hero.
Player A is castle faction, and 20 friendly archers are guarding his ore mine
Player B is castle faction, and 20 friendly wolf raiders are guarding his ore mine.
Day 2, player A will have his original marksman + 20 new ones as power stack. Now multiply this probability even later game (one joins 20 angels which will add to existing ones after upgrading, the other joins 20 giants which will take a new slot) and you will understand why is generally not used in competitions. Other than that, of course you can have fun playing with. I would add a last argument, but not the weakest: people play competitive games for the challenge it procures. Diplo does not require any gaming skill other than clicking with your mouse on stacks on the map and praying that the random generator puts the right monsters on your side.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Biobob
Famous Hero
the Bobler
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posted June 02, 2013 02:14 AM |
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Edited by Biobob at 02:19, 02 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Quote:
Biobob will surely be thankful for reading the 1000th time the skills probabilities. By luck he meant other things, like the type and quantity of creatures offering to join. Imagine you start castle and you have stacks of archers around, is not same thing as joining imps or gremlins.
60 % chance + 20 % if u have thy same type = 80 % if not the creatures just have balls >: no luck mat.
False. Join probability goes from 0 to 10 diplomacy only gives up to 3 bonus. Dont need Diplom for friendly Stack points. Also, army Power decides if Stack will join too.
One thing I Postulate: if 2 Players fight wach other with Diplomacy 100 times,not the better Player will win,but the one Who is Lucky with joiners.
Heroes Contains much too much luck elements already, no reason to increase its influence.
PS: I dont finden the List to be useful, since its only percentage. Its just important to know which heroes CANT get which skills...
PPS: Im on Handy So excuse the stellungen...
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted June 02, 2013 10:38 AM |
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I can see from the tables that Heretic getting diplo value is 3 and demoniac getting diplo is 4.
Getting diplo to work for demon farming is a great idea,but the actual farming could get a bit inefficient.
If you are unlucky,you can get many joiners from elements,golems,
undeads,which you can't farm.
Even if you have alive joiners,which you can farm,you must consider the speed of joiners and speed of demons.I wouldn't farm dragon flies(reducing their awesome speed in half)or sprites(good speed-HP issue).
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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JIVOTNOTO
Tavern Dweller
Beastmaster
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posted June 02, 2013 10:04 PM |
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luck
I have nothing to say ... To get diplo with hero ho don't have it as natural born skill is a precise basic skill picking who have nothing to do with luck it's about how u r felling the game ... Some times u understand that u will never get it in the exact game and u stop loking for it ...
But u just don't play with diplo so may be u just don't know nothing about that
in my city iv been witness of one guy wining every tournament with the rules which i wright on top ...
When i was looking him play it doesn't look like he was lucky
Every game he dominates with no mercy on his enemy
now u make me i change my mind he is not pro he is just a lucky snow pfff no comment
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Biobob
Famous Hero
the Bobler
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posted June 02, 2013 10:42 PM |
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Edited by Biobob at 22:43, 02 Jun 2013.
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Diplomacy actually gets weaker and weaker as a game continues (exception: inferno!). In a standard game, you probably wont be going to face the same creature more than 3 times, at least if we look at level 3 upwards. So we can assume that you are NOT going to join 3 groups of titans in one game of 1 month. Instead, you are probably going to join 1 group of hydras, one group of efreets, and one group of titans, which is far less good. As we enlarge the maps size and games length, the diplomacy factor gets tinyier and tinyier as you can see.
But we are not talking about games of 12 months or such. In games of 2-3 weeks, one stack of good higher level joiners or many stacks of p joiners, diplomacy gets one a higher bonus.
What does this mean for us? In a short game, we probably dont want to waste all too much experience on a hero only to get him one precise skill followed by AT LEAST two more level ups, only to arm him with troops and artifacts to actually hold the might to make the stacks join. Thats why probabilities are dumb to bank on.
But what about heroes who start with the skill. At most, you have expert diplomacy on level 5, from there on, you can do whatever you want.
To get to an end, diplomacy is a game breaker due to short game lengths mostly (again assuming inferno is out of the game). In your city, the guys probably used inferno a lot or played very long games.
Heroes depends so much on luck already (challenge: I bet one million that you cant create a map which gives 100% same chances to both players, including upgraded stacks, battlefields, "week of"s and so on. It is impossible and it is good it is, otherwise the best play would be a play of algorithm...), we dont need to increase its influence even more (repeat in order to underline).
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JIVOTNOTO
Tavern Dweller
Beastmaster
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posted June 03, 2013 11:57 AM |
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bigger issues then Diplo
I see that u don't think the same as i do ...
Any way i just want to ask u don't u think that Hero with "Expert Air" and "DD" is way powerful when u don't have restriction for "DD and Fly""
Than Hero with "Expert diplo" and just movement points
(if not Logistics special hero at higher level)
Because diplo for skill is strong in late game when u have cash and power ... And DD can be critical if u steal major arty few wyvern treas and RUSH ....
i'm i right or there is some thing that i'm missing again
because i think that DD is way more dangerous thing then diplo
so why u make diplo so big issue when it's not ???
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JIVOTNOTO
Tavern Dweller
Beastmaster
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posted June 04, 2013 10:59 AM |
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Okay so from all my questions and the replay's iv made i final conclusion:
Diplo(pure luck) ,DD and Fly(cheat) ,80%(the game is too easy for Prof)
And so i understand now that the players who play with several rules have nothing to do with the real PRO's who restrict half of the game for the most equal game balance .... ( no surprise no luck ) just "SKILLS"
Thanks for the info guys now i will play chess at least i know they wont change the rules over there ...
After all why u need to have fun playing Heroes ... If you need to have fun now go to the circus and watch the clowns and animals ... Heroes is for serious people only ....
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted June 04, 2013 07:27 PM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 11:49, 05 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Heroes Contains much too much luck elements already, no reason to increase its influence.
Too much luck to be enjoyable in multiplayer by a pair of accountants, perhaps. But randomness is not a problem at all in single player. Heroes III was clearly focused on single player, no two ways about it.
Isn't it possible to generate specific monsters using templates ? Or are templates limited to MON4, MON2 etc. like in the map editor ? If you can generate specific monsters, a non-lazy template author could make a template with balanced joinable creatures (at least as far as faction compatibility goes).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 04, 2013 08:24 PM |
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There is no absolute need to search for the perfect balance neither. If you eliminate diplo and necromancy, you can get a very enjoyable MP game, as almost every "unbalance" can be countered a way or another. I played both H2 and H3 and I find them excellent in multiplayer, although it was difficult to find opponents after a while (once the veterans as Frank, Mocara and Vesuvius retired), as I very dislike rules.
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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 10, 2013 07:34 PM |
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Quote:
(challenge: I bet one million that you cant create a map which gives 100% same chances to both players, including upgraded stacks, battlefields, "week of"s and so on. It is impossible and it is good it is, otherwise the best play would be a play of algorithm...), we dont need to increase its influence even more (repeat in order to underline).
Isn't it possible to control battlefields? In 9 Riddles they're always the same. Not trying to disprove you or anything, just curious.
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"An Elf can take out a Ranger
any day of the week, but they
prefer to do it on weekends so
they can stay up late and catch
a show afterwards." -H2 tavern
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