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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Counter Stronghold
Thread: Counter Stronghold This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
silentQ
silentQ


Hired Hero
umm... yeah.... got milk?
posted October 07, 2013 09:05 PM

Counter Stronghold

Hello folks, need some advice.

We have friendly hot-seat games happening quite regularly. I've encountered a real issue with Orcs whom one of my friend's picks all the time with Urghat for hero. Logistics plus unbelievably fast creeping is just nuts. We usually play late mid to early late game since maps are mostly medium to large. All stats plus artifacts plus crazy initiative is just nuts.
I have beaten him before with dwarfs thanks to the resurrection rune + refresh rune and initiative artifacts, but that was a close one.
I'm looking to explore other races or ways to counter that combination of orcs. Tried inferno - not that good in late game plus crappy initiative. My friend tried with Necros to no success.

Any advice is appreciated!

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted October 07, 2013 09:19 PM

Take Wyngaal and the Elves. He has the same sort of special and the faction is often rated the best. Btw iirc, I've been told that both these Heroes were often banned in duels.

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Locksley
Locksley


Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
posted October 08, 2013 11:13 AM

Some ideas

I have been succesful with a Fallen Knight, frenzy is amazing especially if witch doctors fail. Also get much defence and empathy. Rutger could be a good choice if Urghat is too fast.

Academy is good at creeping but lacks logistics.
MOTW is nice when casting blind and frenzy, and mass slow could perhaps solve the initiative problem.

A Sylvan Rain of Frenzy is but unlikely to happen. Rain of Wasp Swarm Arrows boosted by Empathy is very effective but if you show up with Dirael shatter summoning is obvious. However if another ranger gets summoning you can learn wasp swarm from sprites with arcane intuition to surprise the orcs. But both summoning and dark are difficult to get.

In a crazy duel I tried Inferno with sorcery and casted phantom forces on devils and teleport assault on pitlords and the orcs were gone.

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silentQ
silentQ


Hired Hero
umm... yeah.... got milk?
posted October 08, 2013 03:14 PM

Locksley said:
I have been succesful with a Fallen Knight, frenzy is amazing especially if witch doctors fail. Also get much defence and empathy. Rutger could be a good choice if Urghat is too fast.

Academy is good at creeping but lacks logistics.
MOTW is nice when casting blind and frenzy, and mass slow could perhaps solve the initiative problem.

A Sylvan Rain of Frenzy is but unlikely to happen. Rain of Wasp Swarm Arrows boosted by Empathy is very effective but if you show up with Dirael shatter summoning is obvious. However if another ranger gets summoning you can learn wasp swarm from sprites with arcane intuition to surprise the orcs. But both summoning and dark are difficult to get.

In a crazy duel I tried Inferno with sorcery and casted phantom forces on devils and teleport assault on pitlords and the orcs were gone.


Isn't it somewhat hard for the Knight to get dark magic? i'm not even talking about sorcery or enlightment, i know sorcery is close to 1% possibility for the night so this plan seems flawed unless i'm missing something. I'll need to be stacked with artifacts providing +knowledge or i'll be out of mana after casting 2-3 times.

So far Sylvan seems to be more appropriate to the task from what i've been reading.

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Locksley
Locksley


Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
posted October 08, 2013 05:30 PM

@ silentQ

Knights have equal chance to get Dark and Light magic (8 % each) so that's no problem. Mana can be low though so as you say collecting knowledge artifacts is important, it depends on the map how many artifacts there are and how likely you are to succeed with the plan.
Sorcery and enlightenment are at 2 % each per level which means you can get one of them every 2nd/3rd game (but perhaps too late). Both give extra mana but enlightenment is better as it gives +att/def .
The biggest problem is getting a mage guild 4 with frenzy but that's a problem with every faction that you can't always get what you want.

Perhaps Sylvan is the safest choice, they hit hard and have great initiative. But sometimes blood rage simply aborbs the damage, make sure you can take a beating and still win. Light magic is good and easy to get , destructive is worst (absorbed by the rage), summoning is great if you happen to get it early enough but it's not worth hoping for finding dark AND frenzy.

Last stand with Necro could also give you time to work your magic.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted October 08, 2013 05:59 PM

@silentQ

Sorry, good grief, I was remembering Haggash and not Urghat; it is she and Wyngaal that were banned.

So now I have a question, is it Urghat's skill that you think is giving you problems or just the Orcs in general?

If it's her tracking early to mid-game that's the problem to you, then you can counter with "Rutger and Haven", Grok works too but you already said you don't care for Inferno.

Either way, the Elves can be awesome, though you should have Light's mass-spells, max Luck and also Enlightenment is a must. Ossir and Wyngaal are common picks but I also like Talanar, I seem to get a good build with him every time for some reason...probably my imagination.<L>

Have fun

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 08, 2013 10:14 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 17:53, 11 Oct 2013.

silentQ said:
Hello folks, need some advice.

We have friendly hot-seat games happening quite regularly. I've encountered a real issue with Orcs whom one of my friend's picks all the time with Urghat for hero. Logistics plus unbelievably fast creeping is just nuts. We usually play late mid to early late game since maps are mostly medium to large. All stats plus artifacts plus crazy initiative is just nuts.
I have beaten him before with dwarfs thanks to the resurrection rune + refresh rune and initiative artifacts, but that was a close one.
I'm looking to explore other races or ways to counter that combination of orcs. Tried inferno - not that good in late game plus crappy initiative. My friend tried with Necros to no success.

Any advice is appreciated!


In general the orcs arent too hard to handle on any balanced map. But that Urghat hero is overpowered, better ban her. According to the tote in-game description her tracker ability provides +1% movement points for every three lvls of the hero & + 2% to her pathfinding ability. However the description is WRONG, her ability gives +1% movement points for every hero lvl !!! and + 2% to her tracker ability. Its too much, esp on rmg maps. Anyways, for tourney games she is definitely in the ban list. Maps that make her strong allow for faster lvl up. On some toh maps you can reach lvl 20 week 1, so her ability is outrageous there.

Ok, now some tips on how to beat orcs and esp Urghat.
I assume you play on hard difficulty.

With the inferno town you are in a pretty good position, as long as you manage to have fast creeping without taking too many risks. Best heroes are Deleb and Grok. What you aim for is:

Warmashines - asap, you need fast creeping.
Logistics - right after warmashines + at least 1st aid tent. Without the 1st aid you may end up screwed. Note that swift mind is great against orcs.
Light/Dark - both are good, light is unexpected and quite strong in general with the demons. Dark, if not shattered, does wonders against those orks. Note that Dark + swift mind is just sweet, 1 pupet master/frenzy casted right before his best stack plays will normally give you the game. Ofc pick at least 1 "master of.." perk according to the spells you have - best are mass bless, mass haste, mass rm, mass endurance.
Defence - it rulez in heroes V.
Enlightenment/luck/leadership - best is ofc enlightenment, but if you dont get it, then go for luck/leadership. Luck is better if you have only a few skill points to spend there, leadership is better if you can get empaty.

Your main strategy with the demonlords is to drag the game untill you amass enough imps to drain all of his mana. So the later you fight the better. Just make sure to have swift mind + puppet/frenzy and defence.


The haven town ,while very strong on rich maps, is a fair opponent to the orcs on maps that dont allow amassing paladins.
Best heroes are Vittorio and Dougal, vitto on most maps and dougal on those with multiple tier 2 dwellings. Again, you need fast creeping + fast movement on the map, so :
1. Warmashines and
2. Logistics are the 2 skills you want to have asap.
3. Light/Dark, light rulez with mass haste + mass rm, Dark rulez anyways.
4. Defense - must have vs orcs, and must have vs any faction if the game goes long enough.
5. Enlightenment/luck/logistics, same as with the demonlords.

Most experienced orc players will take shatter dark vs haven, and with a good reason. So dont feel obligated to take dark magic, you will be fine with light + mass haste/mass rm/mass endurance. A very good strategy vs the orcs is to get dark magic + attack/power of speed + defence/power of endurance. In this case if the barb player has shatter dark then you proceed casting mass haste/mass endurance as your first spells. If he has shatter light then you cast dark spells and own him. Note that the orcs can take only 1 shatter vs haven, if they take both shatter light + shatter dark then they will lack in the might department.
On rich maps - mass paladins + vampirism normally decide the game. Note that the vampirism spell makes the unit undead and thus immune to the fear my roar warcry. The relic "Sandro's cloak" allows to fear units under vampirism spell, so it may decide the game too.

Strategy - drag the game and train paladins. What you need is defense + light/dark, other things arent that important in the lategame. Ofc enlightenment, swift mind, empathy, retribution, power of speed are great too. If you manage to pupet his best stack before it plays and 1hit-ko some other important stack with the paladins then the orcs cant recover.


to be continued...

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 11, 2013 09:44 AM

silentQ said:
...I've encountered a real issue with Orcs whom one of my friend's picks all the time with Urghat for hero. Logistics plus unbelievably fast creeping is just nuts. We usually play late mid to early late game since maps are mostly medium to large. All stats plus artifacts plus crazy initiative is just nuts.
I have beaten him before with dwarfs thanks to the resurrection rune + refresh rune and initiative artifacts, but that was a close one..
That bit about winning with dwarfs with res rune + refresh rune doesn't sound right because I would have thought mass end/RM/haste would have been stronger dwarf combo if not against shatter light; but I suppose with init artis you mean ring of speed + staff netherworld?

It seems most advice here is about what skills/perks to get?  Is that really what you are asking silentQ?  If so, a replay of your final battle will tell so much more , plus "late mid to early late game" is ambiguous since need to know approx what hero level & approx numbers of lvl 7's, what creatures you use, etc.  (there are better choices than empathy for knight when lvl less than 28.)

So much of a real game depends on other things that: even tho I know what skills/perks to use in direct main combat vs different factions, I doubt I'd win against someone used to playing against other people because they'd be more used to better planning of where hero would go, study map lot more, what they would need to get before attacking main enemy, etc.  Like the Xarfax111's post in H3 early gameplay here...you can lose if you waste time doing too much non-essential stuff too.

{wow, cool newer things in HC like quoting with who wrote the post & ability to focus on a particular post!}

Since you mentioned knight "somewhat hard to get dark" etc, it would seem your knowledge may be improved somewhat by more studying skill wheel & the fan manual?  zaio mentions interesting fact about Urghat's 1% per level bonus which is not as per game/skill wheel description but IT IS IN FAN MANUAL - that's pretty important too!

& I know many not-so-experienced players do not know the value of defense skill & mass spells (especially power of endurance) & retribution in late game  fwiw, I like haven big pally stack, no griffs, squires protecting xbows & adjacents means you have range advantage - stables is a useful movement boost too.
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 11, 2013 12:21 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 14 Oct 2013.
Edited by zaio-baio at 17:47, 11 Oct 2013.

@ SilentQ

Dont have time for a big post now, but im guessing that you need tips on how to counter orcs with dwarfs?

In this case pick Ingvar and:
A) Go for armageddon strategy with master of fire or
B) Go for light magic with 2-3 mass spells ( mass haste, mass righteous might, mass bless or mass endurance ).
C) Go for dark magic with pupet master + frenzy + 2-3 mass curses.

The most unexpected case is that you will go for dark magic, because the dwarfs have low chance to learn it and no dark spells in the mage guild. If you manage to get dark + 2-3 mass curses and you buddy doesnt have shatter dark then you win. Note that you can learn those dark spells with arcane intuition from a blood temple or from neutrals on the map. The high lvl dark spells are obtained via utopias/pyramids/arcane libraries or secondary towns with dark spells in their magic guilds. The arcane library gives spells according to the visiting hero's faction. So if you want the frenzy spell visit the library with a wizard of dwarf hero, if you want blindness and vampirism then visit it with a necro secondary hero and so on. You can find the full list of spells, given according to the visiting hero's faction, in the manual. Of course it only increases your chances to get those spells, there is no guarantee that it will happen. Once visited the library will recharge after 30 days.


Ingvar + armageddon spell + master of fire is good but risky, because your buddy may pick shatter destructive or shatter light + resist fire. If it happens you lose.


Ingvar + light magic is normally very good, still shatter light will hurt you a lot. Consider the fact you cant creep properly with only light magic, unless you have the regeneration spell. So on most maps you need to take warmashines too if going for the light route.


Overall the best thing you can do is to play on a closed map with big guards between your zones( so he wont have advantage from his logistics skill) that also happens to have more non-native castles and gives you the opportunity to learn dark spells. On those maps the orc players need to guess what kind of magic you have taken, so they may get the wrong shatter skill. Also there is the thing that shatter dark is the weakest shatter among all, so even if your dark spells are shattered you will still have good chances to win.


Key skills to have no matter what route you take:

Luck + soldier's luck - dwarven trademark, as it works best with them. Increases the chance to trigger crippling wound, bear roar, mark of fire, and the mighty thunderclap rune. Its essential to have.

Defence + evasion + last stand -> for the last stand + ressurection rune combo, both annoying and game breaking.

Greater rune - to activate a rune 2x. Better pick it early as you may not be able to pick it once you have opened 2-3 skills.


Situational picks:

Logistics + swift mind -> hard to get, but game breaking when combined with puppet master/frenzy. Note that on most maps its too good to skip, shame that the dwarves have only 2% chance to learn it. Its the main reason why i dont play them too often.

Enlightenment + mentoring - only on maps that allow you to reach lvl 25+. You can mentor multiple dwarf heroes, get destructive magic with them and learn destro spells from your town. Then use instant travel, jump between the zones and annoy your opponent. Note that its considered cheap. Another thing that you can do is to mentor inga and learn all runes from her.

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Locksley
Locksley


Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
posted October 11, 2013 02:12 PM
Edited by Locksley at 15:07, 15 Oct 2013.

Good guides

Your approach to fast creeping inferno is inspiring Zaio-Baio. I just wonder how the flood of useless perks inferno has can handled when developing logs, machines and dark simultaneously. For that reason I usually have to focus on the starting skills first, but that's no problem, in a normal paced game all heroes can do good creeping with their starting skills.

Quote:
A very good strategy vs the orcs is to get dark magic + attack/power of speed + defence/power of endurance. In this case if the barb player has shatter dark then you proceed casting mass haste/mass endurance as your first spells. If he has shatter light then you cast dark spells and own him. Note that the orcs can take only 1 shatter vs haven, if they take both shatter light + shatter dark then they will lack in the might department.
Very clever



When I play Stonghold facing the dwarves I almost always get Shatter Light which includes Fire Resistance, and that's a challenge. Countering it with Ingvar with runes, defence, light, machines and luck + perks seems like  a lot of levels.

On the other hand I never get get shatter destructive when playing stronghold as it's only fire magic with defence reduction that really hurts.

Perhaps a faster way is playing Brand with runic triple ballista, flaming arrows (he starts with only runes and should get attack and warmachines very soon), expert luck, expert defence/enlightenment and expert in a magic school (probably destructive, dark if I can get it, and maybe light for resurrection/regeneration/cleansing).
War machines for creeping and damage, good dark/ok destructive/weak light to use the hero for something.


Quote:
& I know many not-so-experienced players do not know the value of defense skill & mass spells (especially power of endurance) & retribution in late game   fwiw, I like haven big pally stack, no griffs, squires protecting xbows & adjacents means you have range advantage - stables is a useful movement boost too.

Good hints.

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 11, 2013 06:30 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 18:44, 11 Oct 2013.

@ Lockley
thx

Locksley said:

When I play Stonghold facing the dwarves I almost always get Shatter Light which includes Fire Resistance, and that's a challenge.


+1, but what will happen if you face dark ?


@ Skprimus

The description of the retribution perk is wrong too, it adds up to 25% more dmg only when your units attack, doesnt work when they retaliate. For instance when you charge with your angels you will benefit from the retribution perk, but when they get attacked and retaliate then they will deal normal dmg. Nevertheless its a great thing to have lategame.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 11, 2013 08:23 PM

yeah I knew about retrib only working on attacks ever since I asked in the insanely hard quiz thread  Players also underestimate exp counterstrike 20% on retaliations which is also not as bad as many players claim to be either (as a racial)....the upshot (for the non-experienced) is really that one can have a smaller army & still win.

Maps without memory mentor means an orc hero with logs & warmachines can be definitely beatable in mid-late game. (in the same way that taking two shatters (or two magics for knight) can hamper might strength)  It might also be better to catch Urghat before more skills are accumulated at high level.

hang on, OP said inferno crappy intiative? lol wut?
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 11, 2013 10:42 PM

@SkPrimus

But you didnt knew that the dwarven set casts mass endurance and deflect missile spells according to the hero's light magic mastery ?

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 12, 2013 06:22 AM

wth how'd you know all this crazy crap detail?

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 12, 2013 09:03 AM

SKPRIMUS said:
wth how'd you know all this crazy crap detail?


Played very epic maps , anyways the shatter light skill of the barberians doesnt count as light magic, so even if they get the set it will cast endurance and deflect with no mastery.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 14, 2013 10:07 PM

And a well-deserved shiny for zaio baio Good to see some people are still keeping the flame alive.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

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Locksley
Locksley


Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
posted October 15, 2013 03:16 PM
Edited by Locksley at 15:17, 15 Oct 2013.

zaio-baio said:
@ Lockley
thx

Locksley said:

When I play Stonghold facing the dwarves I almost always get Shatter Light which includes Fire Resistance, and that's a challenge.


+1, but what will happen if you face dark ?


I'll hope it doesn't happen.

Maybe an orc with high defence (less dmg from pm/frenzy) and a good ballista (independent damage dealer) and fast movement (both on map -> early attack, and in battle -> scatter among dwarves to avoid frenzy) has a better chance than the an orc specialising in luck + retribution + enlightenment.

But I think it's a bit boring to get war machines when playing as Barbarian.


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silentQ
silentQ


Hired Hero
umm... yeah.... got milk?
posted October 15, 2013 08:15 PM

Those are excellent advices, thank you all!
one thing i should've mentioned - no heroes are banned, map will most likely be random generated. Also it's a hotseat game. there will be most likely 2 orc players and 1 dungeon player.
The orc i'm worried about will FOR SURE be taking shutter dark. And will MOST LIKELY be taking shutter light, regardless if i pick heaven, dwarfs or sylvan.
I know for fact that the other guy will play dungeon, so dark will be a natural choice for orc, however, if we concentrate the talk on emplosion they will go shutter dark and shutter destruction - that's the most they can afford.

Does it make sense to go with dwarfs again with mass light spells? Or maybe Sylvan or Heaven, considering those towns rely on light magic?
If i pick either of those two, opponents will go for shutter light and dark/destruction.

There's always a gamble..... tough choice..

I'll ask for the reply of the battle. If my friend still has it - i'll post it.    

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silentQ
silentQ


Hired Hero
umm... yeah.... got milk?
posted October 15, 2013 08:19 PM

@SKPRIMUS
I do enjoy playing playing dwarfs - they are my favs, however, i'm always open to different towns to play with. So as long as the strategy is sound, i'll try it!

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 18, 2013 07:28 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 19:28, 18 Oct 2013.

silentQ said:

Does it make sense to go with dwarfs again with mass light spells? Or maybe Sylvan or Heaven, considering those towns rely on light magic?
If i pick either of those two, opponents will go for shutter light and dark/destruction.
I'll ask for the reply of the battle. If my friend still has it - i'll post it.    


It depends entirely on the map - template, size, richness, neutrals strength, memory mentor availability, possible week for the final battle and so on. It will be best to upload the generated map so we can see exactly what type it is.

Those shatters are hard to obtain, he may not get shatter dark offered even if he wants it. Dark is the safest bet, as long as you can make sure to have the right spells.

Feel free to post that replay and all others you got We can watch them and give you some tips

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