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| Thread: Talking about Death |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Corribus
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The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 22, 2014 03:10 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 03:13, 22 Jul 2014.
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Talking about Death
So one of my neighbors has a very late stage cancer and probably isn't going to last more than 6 months or so. Yesterday at dinner I mentioned this to my (6 year old) daughter... not at first that this neighbor was dying, but that the neighbor was very sick. This turned into a very long conversation about cancer and death, some of it grounded in science (what causes cancer and what happens to people who have it) and some grounded in philosophy and religion (what happens to people after they die, the effect of death on society, whether death is good or bad).
I mentioned this conversation to some friends/colleagues today and one of them was outraged (ok, maybe not outraged, but certainly very opposed to the idea) that I discussed a neighbor's imminent demise with a six year old child. Death, I was told, is a subject not fit for children, particularly when discussed in concrete (not abstract) terms. They particularly did not seem to like that we were talking about someone my daughter knew, and what was likely going to happen to them as the illness advanced.
Am I totally off base here? Given that death (like sex, for that matter) is such an important part of life, is there a reason we should be treating it as a taboo subject with our children? Beyond that - it seems ironic to me that people in a society so supersaturated with graphic violence in its popular culture still find it hard to confront their own mortality. This is evident from the euphemisms we still use to refer to death ('passed away', 'moved on', 'gone to a better place' etc.), to the framing of our religious beliefs (concepts of heaven, life after death, reincarnation, etc.), to our bizarre and frankly tragic refusal to seriously consider the merits of euthanasia. I suspect that a lot of this is connected - the way we think about death and the way we talk about it with our kids. It's a self-reinforcing cycle.
What do you all think?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 03:16 AM |
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Since, you also seem to be disapproving of multiple threads discussing the same topic, don't you think it's a better idea to carry this question here?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
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posted July 22, 2014 03:24 AM |
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Well I didn't want to discuss death itself so much as how we talk about it with our children... which should be evident from the title of the thread.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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DagothGares
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posted July 22, 2014 03:26 AM |
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Taking a socratic standpoint here: I think there's great merit in being clear about death when you talk to your child. You don't want them having strange ideas about death and I think most children are well-equipped to understand it. It's a deep subject. You can talk about a lot of things and I think it's very important that people have knowledge in these things when they ask about it. I don't really believe you should treat kids as idiots. You should treat their questions with respect and answer truthfully. I believe that's the best basis for a relationship with them and the best way for them to grow up.
(I take this attitude less when I have to feed them and put them to bed, but at age 6, they stop being bratty mostly, I reckon.  )
Even if you're not interested in telling your kids about it, I think one should provide the information a kid wants. If they ask about it and you refuse to tell them about it, that just makes it weird for everyone. As someone who's had three close family members die at ages 10, 16 and 17, I'd have preferred it if people talked about it normally with me. And I think it's easier too, if people would act normal about it. But that's less people not being informed about death and more people not having savoir-faire about these things.
As a side note, I think talking to sad or grieving person is a skill that is very undervalued. There's a lot of people that have this delusion that it's about sharing pain ("Oh, I'm sooo sorry for your loss!",) rather than understanding it. Empathy, as in experiencing the emotions of the others, is overvalued and sympathy, as in merely understanding these emotions, is undervalued.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 22, 2014 03:29 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 03:30, 22 Jul 2014.
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DagothGares said:
As a side note, I think talking to sad or grieving person is a skill that is very undervalued. There's a lot of people that have this delusion that it's about sharing pain ("Oh, I'm sooo sorry for your loss!",) rather than understanding it. Empathy, as in experiencing the emotions of the others, is overvalued and sympathy, as in merely understanding these emotions, is undervalued.
I'm with you here. I find it incredibly uncomfortable trying to speak to someone who is in pain or grieving. My usual default in such situation is humor, but that's often worse than saying nothing at all. My sympathy skills just are not honed at all.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Wolfman
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posted July 22, 2014 03:46 AM |
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Speaking as a non-parent here, I would say that it is fine to talk to them about it. Like you said, it is a natural part of life... actually I think Forrest's mom says that exact thing in Forrest Gump...
But anyway, I think it is all about how it is done. As you know your own kid, I'm sure you knew how best to discuss the subject without going too far.
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DagothGares
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posted July 22, 2014 03:46 AM |
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The best thing you can do, like at a funeral and such is telling them: "I'm sorry for your loss. I'm here if you need me. (optional: And if there's anything I can do to help, let me know.)" The exact wording isn't too important. If not at a funeral, but like a few months after the fact and it bubble sup in conversation, you're better off gauging whether they want to talk about it or something else.
This is just me talking, but I think it's more important to project strength, be dependable, etc, when you're not the one grieving here. In Dutch we have this saying: to be a rock in the surf. Be that. In English you say something like "you're my rock" or something. Try to be like Dwayne Johnson, is what I'm saying.
The worst thing is the "Oh, my god, this person sad, how can I make glad?" reaction. Any attempts to change the mood of the aggrieved are stressful in a way. You're giving them something else to worry about, other than a recently dead relative. It's important to know that funerals are about closure and a sense of community. It isn't about you or about the person in the coffin. It's a way for the people close to the deceased, the ones left behind, to build a fence around the pain. It's about them, really and it's usually best to give them room.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
TL; DR: keep cool, and if they get really distressed, keep on keeping cool.
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 03:47 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:51, 22 Jul 2014.
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Corribus said:
Well I didn't want to discuss death itself so much as how we talk about it with our children... which should be evident from the title of the thread.
The title isn't Talking about Death to Children or Death and Children but whatever... I just think having single threads about major topics is much more practical, since similar questions keep popping up again and again. It's easier to have the whole thing in one place when you want to do an overall reading.
I don't remember this myself but when my great-grandfather died, my grandma told me that she found me in the bedroom one day, all the shutters of the windows were closed and it was absolute darkness. When she asked what I was doing I had replied "I am trying to understand how grandpa Muhip feels." I must have been 6 or 7.
Then around 10, this time I remember myself, saw a documentary about Aids on TV and there was this sick guy, he was talking about how he didn't want to die and how much he wanted to survive. The doc stated that he died a month later in a very formal tone. And at that moment, the concept of everything coming to an end suddenly clicked, I clearly remember comprehending not to exist lucidly for the first time. I was very afraid for a few weeks, I couldn't sleep and all...
Bottom line is, there is a period when you mature enough to realize death not just as an abstract concept but an emotional reality and until then, no matter how grown-ups talk about it, you just don't care much. And when it hits you for the first time, it's quite a depressing idea to digest at once.
I don't think people should lie to their children but I guess it's also not a very good idea to tell a 6 year old that his mother has completely vanished forever. Personally, in such situations, I would prefer to say something like "she'll be with us as long as we remember her" instead of "she's in heaven now, singing with the angels." Spoken very directly, the concept of death may frighten and depress a child if he/she's not ready. But again, if not old enough, a child wont truly comprehend the idea anyway, the period in which they can comprehend death but can not deal with it, is problematic.
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mvassilev
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posted July 22, 2014 03:50 AM |
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I think it's best to talk about death (and sex) non-euphemistically. Better that they learn the reality now, before something can take them by surprise. Once enough parents talk frankly to their children about taboo subjects, the children will stop thinking of it as something weird and not to be talked about, and the taboo will go away, much like the taboo on the discussion of homosexuality has gone away in some social circles in the US.
People want children to be innocent, but if we talk about taboo subjects without keeping them at an arm's length, they'll forget that there was anything to be innocent of.
Edit: Also, when we don't talk about taboo subjects clearly, children often develop strange misconceptions about them, which can attract further misconceptions and lead to a mistaken worldview even after the original misconception has been corrected.
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 04:01 AM |
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It's not about taboos, there are concepts that require the mindset and emotional depth of an adult to be able to understand and deal with. Children are not exactly like adults but only with less knowledge about issues of sex and death, they genuinely react different to some things. That's why, for example, you have rated movies and psychologists decide which movie is suitable for children. A kid may be much more frightened by some images than an adult, not because he's surprised, because his brain doesn't work like yours yet.
You shouldn't ignore the subject or blatantly lie about it, sure, but going "snow the taboos, I'll raise a free minded kid and tell him everything at once" isn't the wisest approach either.
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friendofgunnar
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posted July 22, 2014 06:55 AM |
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IMO if a child is old enough to ask a question they're old enough to get a complete and truthful answer.
I'm curious though what you told her about what happens after a person dies.
If I was in the same situation I would of course answer "I don't know", but then I would steer the conversation towards some of the more optimistic ideas - for example my own theory that you start working for God as a data entry clerk. Maybe that's sugar-coating it a bit but I don't think there's any harm in that.
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 07:05 AM |
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Edited by artu at 07:06, 22 Jul 2014.
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Well, the thing is, people who talk about not lying when it comes to death are usually people who think that after-life is a lie, friendofgunnar.. Otherwise, what would be the problem, "you'll go to heaven and be happy forever if you behave good", done.
"What happens when a person dies" will most likely be followed by "Will it happen to me, too?" and that's a sensitive subject to talk about with a child if your opinion is death is the ultimate end.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 22, 2014 07:29 AM |
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I mostly agree with the others - telling children fairy tales about death is as stupid as telling them lies about sex.
It is an important fact of life that our time here is limited - and that we simply don't know what happens with a person after they die. The problem is, that offering the possibility of something unknown, something beside the obvious, involves some rather philosophical concepts, that are not easy to relate to young children - imo, most people would be unable to, since they themselves can't talk freely about it or have difficulties to explain things coherently.
Since this obviously isn't a problem with you, Corribus, there is no reason not to speak about it or somehow conceal the facts.
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 07:40 AM |
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Quote:
I mostly agree with the others - telling children fairy tales about death is as stupid as telling them lies about sex.
It is an important fact of life that our time here is limited - and that we simply don't know what happens with a person after they die.
Well, almost all of the others (that would be me, Mvass and Corribus) in this instance, do not define after death as something unknown. If you see your consciousness, (which is your personality, self-awareness, simply put, your existence), as the result of the activity of your brain, you KNOW there is nothing after brain-death. It is not a mystery, it is not a question. It is a matter of causality: No brain no person.
The concept of death itself, as in how it affects our life, is of course a philosophically deep question but "what happens after you die" is not. Nothing happens,that is the simple and harsh truth.
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friendofgunnar
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posted July 22, 2014 08:00 AM |
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If I remember right Cor described himself as athiest-agnostic, which I suspect would put him more in the "don't know" category than the "you cease existance for the rest of eternity" category.
Anyway, if you want to tell your own young children that they cease existing forever when they die then go right ahead, I won't try to stop you. 
On a side note, I just found out recently that a person who I thought would be a hard-core Christian until the day they died has become a hard-core athiest. Quite a shocker 
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 08:11 AM |
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Edited by artu at 09:36, 22 Jul 2014.
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Cor's agnosticism is based on the impossibility of absolute knowledge, it's methodical, not a practical doubt about after-life. If I remember correctly, in some other thread he summarized his view on "what happens after you die" as "I will keep on living in the memories of people who loved me and it will slowly embed into nothing."
To make it clearer, to say you are certain that there is no after-life but theoretically no certainty is absolute, is not saying "we can't know what happens after death." No certainty being absolute goes for ALL the information we have, including a question such as, say, "do black cats bring bad luck?" Just like, you won't answer your child "no, black cats are regular cats just like the others but nothing in this life is absolutely certain," if you are a materialist who explains consciousness by natural phenomenon, your (true) answer won't be "nobody really knows."
And I've been talking about not lying but also not getting too direct and harsh about this truth since my first post. That's why this is a matter of discussion, if an 8 year-old asks you "what will happen to me after I die" you have to find some way to be truthful but not harsh and depressing. It's not as easy as it sounds. I think trying to actually imagine the situation rather than focusing on principles about honesty would be better.
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fred79
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posted July 22, 2014 08:14 AM |
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i've told my niece that i don't believe in any afterlife. i gave her the reasons that i don't, as well. she chooses to believe, for now. which is fine with me; i think maybe one day she will come to her own conclusions.
i haven't discussed this with my nephews yet, because they haven't asked. but i'll tell them the same thing: that i don't believe in any afterlife, but no one really knows what happens when we die. i leave my answer open to interpretation, should they need the comfort of heaven if someone or something close to them dies. i think that they'll come to their own conclusions as well, in time.
discussing behavioral issues is another matter, though. i am brutally honest when it comes to social behavior, as how they act will have much more of an impact on their lives.
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Lexxan
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posted July 22, 2014 09:23 AM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 09:24, 22 Jul 2014.
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Corribus said:
Am I totally off base here? Given that death (like sex, for that matter) is such an important part of life, is there a reason we should be treating it as a taboo subject with our children?
Absolutely not. Anyone at any time can be confronted with the death of someone they know, including children of six years or younger. Using eufemisms (e.g.: saying that the deceased is going to heaven/sleeping forever) is imo the best course of action with a child of your daughter's age, much more preferable than silence anyway. It allows them to follow their own understanding of the concept of "dying" without it being too terrifying for them.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 22, 2014 09:59 AM |
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artu said:
Quote:
I mostly agree with the others - telling children fairy tales about death is as stupid as telling them lies about sex.
It is an important fact of life that our time here is limited - and that we simply don't know what happens with a person after they die.
Well, almost all of the others (that would be me, Mvass and Corribus) in this instance, do not define after death as something unknown. If you see your consciousness, (which is your personality, self-awareness, simply put, your existence), as the result of the activity of your brain, you KNOW there is nothing after brain-death. It is not a mystery, it is not a question. It is a matter of causality: No brain no person.
The concept of death itself, as in how it affects our life, is of course a philosophically deep question but "what happens after you die" is not. Nothing happens,that is the simple and harsh truth.
This is certainly not the right place to discuss it, but it isn't so simple at all. You'll have to be a strict materialist to claim this, but since there are alternatives, it's not your task to influence your child in one direction.
What we know is what materially happens with the body, but we also know that people lying in a coma, no brain activity registered, afterwards were able to describe what was done to them, seemingly having witnessed things from a pov outside of their body.
The simple and harsh truth is, that we've learned, the more we learn, the more questions come up.
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veco
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posted July 22, 2014 10:00 AM |
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I always thought the appropriate way was to ask what kid thinks about it first and then go along with them probing wether you should just leave the subject as is (if it gets emotional) or you can actually start explaining it.
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