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| Thread: 9 year old girl shoots instructor dead at gun range |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
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Endless Revival
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posted August 29, 2014 03:34 PM |
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Bad at aiming? No probs, with an uzi you are guaranteed to hit something! Collateral damage may apply.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 29, 2014 03:46 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
Money.
You're near the source.
It's "Business" that rules here. Who knows how many "Dealers" we have and then there's the "Shows" and the "Collectors."
Make no mistake, it's went waay past Grampa teaches an older boy how to hunt game with an old war-relic or single-shot-bird-gun. When the bulk of society lives for the next cell-phone release the jump was not hard.
The idea that guns are chained but untended in some stores says a lot. They're just another product on the shelves now.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2014 06:09 PM |
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markkur said:
The idea that guns are chained but untended in some stores says a lot. They're just another product on the shelves now.
good point. but who is going to go into a store with a pair of bolt-cutters and not get noticed right away? anyone who is itching to get firearms THAT bad, should've never been let out of their cage anyway. no, the issue lies somewhere else. the problem is, with so many people overcrowding prisons and psychiatric institutes, and with so little personnel or proper filing/tracking techniques, the nuts are going to find loopholes. even if THEY don't, their retarded lawyers will. or their families. things are far too complicated, to stop certain people from wanting to harm another. gun-related murder is a just a symptom of the bigger illness(which, by the way, ISN'T the united ****ing states, for all those here who will be quick to use that excuse).
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 29, 2014 07:16 PM |
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kayna said:
Aside from the accident itself , two disturbing things :
1 - 9 year old kids apparently have the right to try shooting things. That age is way too low for my taste.
That would be the cultural part, it seems. When we look at the reactions of the people on this community, most people from rest of the world gives a similar reaction: "Why would you do that?" On the other hand, regardless of their position about the gun culture (which can be critical, blizz and markkur are good examples), when Americans hear about a kid of such young age learning to shoot, they all go "sure, why not?" So,
markkur said:
It's "Business" that rules here. Who knows how many "Dealers" we have and then there's the "Shows" and the "Collectors."
Make no mistake, it's went waay past Grampa teaches an older boy how to hunt game with an old war-relic or single-shot-bird-gun. When the bulk of society lives for the next cell-phone release the jump was not hard.
The idea that guns are chained but untended in some stores says a lot. They're just another product on the shelves now.
You know, I am very fond of the school of thought called historical materialism and explaining things on a basis of "relations of production" would normally appeal to me. But capitalist business is not unique to US, neither is the right to bear fire arms. So why doesn't it cause a similar situation elsewhere, what is the reason for this incredible gap in the statistics? I checked out a little bit and, naturally, turns out it is something that people are studying and trying to figure out, mostly your own political scientists such as Robert Spitzer and so on: wiki summary
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 30, 2014 03:16 AM |
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@ Fred79
What I meant was, to me (and I'm way old school) is that a gun is just something more akin to gaining a level, a step if you will. Learning the needed responsibility first, gaining trust, etc. that sort of thing, not just another toy that bears no thought. And Mentoring is better than some generic state program but I'm old now and probably make little sense in modern times. 
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 30, 2014 04:08 AM |
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The way you focus on responsibility is indeed old-school. I think it has a lot to do with actually living in the country, where hunting (or scaring away the wolves etc) is not a sport or hobby but tradition born out of necessity. Here, people who still live in villages (not to be confused with relatively urbanized farms and plantations of US, you guys don't have villages in the classical sense) are like that. Guns are not different than pitchforks or axes to them, something you should learn to use responsibly and never to mistake for a toy.
The story changes when we come to the "modern man" though. Most people who doesn't only own but who also "loves to own" guns get hooked on the feeling/illusion of power it brings. (Not too old to know StarWars, are you Markkur  , all that dark side metaphor and how the Sith owns you etc.) The more and the bigger the guns you own, the more powerful it feels. That would be the part where capitalist mindset is most related: Buy bigger, buy more, buy the improved version even if you don't really need it. Buy a rocket launcher while you're at it. Why? Just do it. It feels guuud.
The irony is, when you get hooked on that "power" with such a mind set, it usually results in an opposite entrapment, kind of like an addiction. This can be an urban legend but I remember reading somewhere, Roosevelt, even during his time of presidency, couldn't sleep if he didn't have his revolver under the pillow. He was sleeping in the White House, protected by who knows how many agents of national security, yet he felt insecure without the gun.
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markkur
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posted August 30, 2014 04:08 PM |
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Well Artu you're right about my situation, at least in part anyway. I did live on the fringe and there were large packs of coyotes around my small farm. They were always a nuisance but worse, could take out farm animals of course or could be dangerous to a lone person. So indeed they were a constant threat.
Personally I don't think folks living in cities should be able to buy guns but my hard-line views would never be supported.
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fred79
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posted August 30, 2014 07:57 PM |
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@ markkur: you don't think regular civilians should be able to defend themselves from predatory civilians who have guns? i just cannot comprehend this way of thinking, at all. it seems malicious, more than anything sensible.
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 30, 2014 10:56 PM |
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And I can't comprehend how everybody having a gun could lead to improved safety. If a few "predatory people" are carrying guns they might occasionally cause some harm, but if everyone has access to weapons, you'll get just this: stupid, unnecessary accidents all the time.
Seriously, giving every human a choice to just go and purchase the power to easily kill another human? Every human, including children, mentally disturbed (I don't believe any amount of control could ever completely prevent that), basically anyone who ever gets drunk... It's probably far more likely that these regular people would fire a gun by accident than actually use it in self defenese.
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fred79
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posted August 31, 2014 12:20 AM |
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Nitramar said:
And I can't comprehend how everybody having a gun could lead to improved safety. If a few "predatory people" are carrying guns they might occasionally cause some harm, but if everyone has access to weapons, you'll get just this: stupid, unnecessary accidents all the time.
Seriously, giving every human a choice to just go and purchase the power to easily kill another human? Every human, including children, mentally disturbed (I don't believe any amount of control could ever completely prevent that), basically anyone who ever gets drunk... It's probably far more likely that these regular people would fire a gun by accident than actually use it in self defenese.
so these kinds of accidents happen all the time? funny, i don't see them in the news...
every human being has the power to easily kill another human being, regardless of tools. no guns? they could use a ****ing ROCK. if you're seriously going to ***** about whatever tool that they use to do it... wtf. seriously, wtf. 
if enough people used rocks, the anti-gun people would be anti-rock people. and then they'd try to ban rocks. see how stupid that sounds?
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 12:41 PM |
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Edited by Nitramar at 12:44, 31 Aug 2014.
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fred79 said:
so these kinds of accidents happen all the time? funny, i don't see them in the news...
Did you read the op? Anyway, I guess domestic accidents are not newsworthy enough in a big country such as the USA. I would argue that all of these school shootings, for example, are a pretty direct result of too easy access to guns. I don't have any statistics, but I sure would be interested in seeing any counter-evidence to the statement that more gun-related accidents occur in more gun-populated areas...
Quote:
they could use a ****ing ROCK.
Then why don't you just protect yourself with a "****ing ROCK" instead of a gun? Oh wait:
Quote:
if enough people used rocks, the anti-gun people would be anti-rock people. and then they'd try to ban rocks. see how stupid that sounds?
Yeah, and you know why not enough people use rocks? Because they are too ineffective: too easy to miss, too inconvenient to carry, not lethal enough, etc. By your logic, we should give all people access to all weapons, like yeah it's totally a good idea to allow war gas and cruise missiles as long as everyone can have them...
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 31, 2014 03:21 PM |
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fred79 said:
@ markkur: you don't think regular civilians should be able to defend themselves from predatory civilians who have guns? i just cannot comprehend this way of thinking, at all. it seems malicious, more than anything sensible.
The principle is fine but the reality is different.
As I DID, Buy a large spread of about 40 acres about 45 minutes outside any large town, live there 15 years and you'll see things a tad differently. It's a "fair" idea to think that everyone should be packing heat if they want to but the fact is...too many people have zero common sense.
Which leads to a logistics problem; Say a million folks that live in small boxes that have no access to grass let alone a large area to fire a weapon head out of town and ?. What do folks do? Buy the land and SEE.
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fred79
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posted August 31, 2014 04:50 PM |
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@ nitramar: what is this i don't even.
@ markkur: many people lack a lot of things, yes. but they're still allowed to drive 1-ton+ vehicles, drink alcohol, vote, etc. should any of these be taken away, as well? assuming voting was legit, don't you think that would be much more of a cause for alarm?
or maybe, it's more of a cause for alarm, that nations have nukes. or chemical weapons. or biological weapons. or that human beings pollute the earth, and all they care about is business(money and power). or that voting DOESN'T actually change anything, and yet, there are still people who define themselves as republican/democrat. or who believe in a being in the clouds, subjectively speaking.
you're dealing with a mad race, who has a huge problem with posturing. picking and choosing what they are allowed to have, especially when one of those things are used to PROTECT one another, is a little misguided.
would you say that alchohol or cigarettes protect the citizenry? or do they kill off more people than they're worth?
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 05:00 PM |
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Fred, personally I would have nothing to object if you just said: arms are part of our culture, they are the symbol of something unique to America only, I cannot feel secure without one, and so on.
Period. I can understand.
But frankly, the arguments you bring 
They all confirm one thing we already knew: free access to fire arms only bring havoc. For the reason you mention yourself: humans are dangerous by their nature. Give them alcohol or cigars, in most of cases they kill themselves. But give them fire arms, they will almost always kill somebody else.
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fred79
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 05:10 PM |
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Sal said:
Fred, personally I would have nothing to object if you just said: arms are part of our culture, they are the symbol of something unique to America only, I cannot feel secure without one, and so on.
Period. I can understand.
But frankly, the arguments you bring
They all confirm one thing we already knew: free access to fire arms only bring havoc. For the reason you mention yourself: humans are dangerous by their nature. Give them alcohol or cigars, in most of cases they kill themselves. But give them fire arms, they will almost always kill somebody else.
and i've said before, the best way to protect against criminals with guns, is to have a gun yourself. that's the bottom line. criminals come in many forms, and i'm not just talking about common street thugs. but yeah, i guess i HAVE been kinda arguing against myself. that's the problem, when trying to deal with things that are possibly beneficial towards human beings, but also possibly dangerous for them. you'll always have a bigger divide between people then.
i firmly believe, that life in the united states, would be MUCH worse, if common citizenry weren't allowed to properly protect themselves from threats. i know you guys have all seen what happens, when bad people are allowed to run wild. regardless of country.
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markkur
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posted August 31, 2014 10:56 PM |
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Fred, you disregard the common sense thing and shouldn't. Buy the land and see.
And something else; I do believe in the right to bear arms but the fact is "Today" there's a big snag with it. When that was adopted (and needed) what was everyone carrying? Answer = mostly the Brown-Bess musket and some new rifles. We only won our freedom because we nearly had the same firepower.
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fred79
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posted September 01, 2014 01:35 AM |
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you know, i see what other countries do when the citizens revolt against injustice, in this day and age. they throw molitovs. against guys with guns. and how many of those citizens die? now, how many of those policemen or soldiers die?
speaking strictly of countries with an unarmed populace, of course.
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markkur
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posted September 01, 2014 03:47 PM |
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You should start a different thread. I'm not wanting to discuss guns and revolution in the modern age. I gave you a few very good reasons why my old beliefs (the old mantra)about basic gun ownership don't hold up well today.
1. Common sense about weapons is in serious decline. Alcohol (or other drugs) aside and yet that's no small issue.
2. The problem of millions owning guns with no place to shoot. The better off can pay to go to a range of course but the poor cannot.
3. Military weapons being sold. (See number one)
4. The right to bear arms was enacted at a time when it made much more sense.
I'll leave it at that.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 01, 2014 04:57 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:32, 01 Sep 2014.
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markkur said:
I'm not wanting to discuss guns and revolution in the modern age. I gave you a few very good reasons why my old beliefs (the old mantra)about basic gun ownership don't hold up well today.
1. Common sense about weapons is in serious decline. Alcohol (or other drugs) aside and yet that's no small issue.
2. The problem of millions owning guns with no place to shoot. The better off can pay to go to a range of course but the poor cannot.
3. Military weapons being sold. (See number one)
4. The right to bear arms was enacted at a time when it made much more sense.
I'll leave it at that.
The revolution argument had already been refuted both in the original gun thread and in here, by minimum standards of common sense, anyhow.
It cant be won, it wont have to be won because no American politician will have the motivation to declare tyranny, it's historically absurd. And let's say some states did decide to declare independence, even that would mean forming a military of some sort (even back in 1860). Civilian individuals owning guns has nothing to do with this, at any crisis, extreme majority of people will lock their door and stay home, anyway. Relating tyranny to gun culture is just illogical and absurd by all means.
And somebody giving a nine year old an Uzi or producing shotguns for 10 year old kids is not about the right to bear arms, anyway. Many many countries preserve the right to bear arms at some level, non of them has similar statistics. This is about the gun culture. Even if all the obviously and extremely flawed analogies about car accidents or using knives were not flawed at all, these are completely different topics. (Yet, they are flawed: You can not have a world without knives and cars. Guns, on the other hand, are expendable; there are already existing, functioning, liberal societies without the gun culture and they do perfectly well. Also, you don't miss with a rock or a knife and accidentally kill someone eating his breakfast 50 meters away from you. Especially guns like Uzis, which practically SPRAY bullets are clearly not for self-defense or sports.)
Borrowing the words of an American novelist, Quentin R. Bufogle, the very transparent fact, even if you read some of the gun "loving" posts here, is actually this:
"Our love affair with guns has nothing to do with tyranny, or militias, or self-preservation. Just ask any NRA member the following: If Jesus Christ himself were to come down off the cross and grant you one wish, would you opt for a world without guns -- or the one we live in now? If every gun owner truly feared for their life and liberty, the answer would be obvious. But it's not about life and liberty. It's all about the sheer hard-on of owning a gun."
No amazing observation skills required there, this practically pokes you in the eye.
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Herry
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posted September 11, 2014 09:39 AM |
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Elvin said:
Bad at aiming? No probs, with an uzi you are guaranteed to hit something! Collateral damage may apply.
Too bad it wasn't a magnum .44, the **** would be ****ing epic 
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