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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 12:11 AM |
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I'm kind of nuetral with ashan. I've played the games since heroes 1 but I am strictly a heroes player and not an M&M player. If I was answering this question back when heroes 5 came out, I would answer yes. But in my opinion, the snowy graphics have greatly improved and the line ups have as well. I love beast units and especially flying beast units. Ashan meant no more T-bird, manticore, behemoth, and others. But things are slowly improving in that area (if only slyvan would benefit) so I like seeing my favorite units return.
The world was always changing in the old games (aparently) which I was not aware of, except for h3 to h4. So the fact that ubisoft games don't blow up their world doesn't make me like them less. Most of the actual heroes were still the same so I don't get why they didn't die off with their worlds...? Was fine when I was oblivious to it, but now it's confusing.
I do think the game has been watered down since ubi took over. It's why I get excited for the return of things, rather than new things. One thing I really miss about the old games is how different their line ups were. Every faction played different and had its own charms. The maximum number of factions in ashan should be capped at like seven because they just run out of ideas and start copying other line ups. A new faction for them is like taking bits of other factions and putting them in one.
Ashan has its pros and cons, just like the old games. I admit, I like seeing old things return like the way the hydra looks, the behemoth, fortress units, paladins (kinda)..etc. at the same time I think they completely butchered the sylvan faction, which was my favorite. The lore is usually pretty dumb but I don't let that change my opinion on anything. The graphics in ashan are just 100x better (which is not the only reason but I thought I should mention it) which makes even the horrendous h6 a little playable. But if h7 in the end is great, ill be looking forward to another Heroes installment in the world of ashan 
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 05, 2015 12:14 AM |
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GenyaArikado said:
1- they're dressed with spider themed clothes
2- It's their canon clothes, you literally do the same customization thing in Heroes except it doesnt show in the model
3- Oh dracula the pretty vampire?
4- There was green swirling magic in the pic avonu posted lol
1.they're not, you haven't played the game
2.they're not, you haven't played the game
3.yes, dracula vampires with capes, but also nosfreatus
4.it was cyan
why do I even bother with you?
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 12:58 AM |
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Nice post, Green Draq. Seeing posts with this kind of positive attitude is rather refreshing.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 01:52 AM |
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1 and 2 well, thats the clothes they wear at character creation from what i have seen in YT. They are still vampires and necros wearimg spider themed clothes lol
3 Ok, it had pretty vampires and ugly vampires. Ashanverse has pretty vampires like MM8 (and H4). Your point?
I recall the picture of 4 green. Id like to Avonu to repost it, if possible. But even then, green is associated with death, poison and decay and is a recurrent color in undead factions of games which feature them. Sharing a color does not make a ripoff, having units that look the same to something else (Like H3 vampires to count orlok, Medusa and Skeletons to Clash of Titans and Jason and the Argonauts moviies, Beholders and Gorgons to D&D, etc) does. Being from another media doesnt make them any less a ripoff.
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 06:18 AM |
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Gosh, I do not understand- Dev tries to implement sth new, make sth different- like Necropolis with a spider symbol, units like lamassu- and people say it is bad, against the cannon
Dev models on sth popular or just uses common fantasy things- it is bad, just lazy copypasting
If an idea would turn to be good- it is not thanks to Ubi, it has jusst copypasted fans idea or modeled on fans mod
I have feeling that whatever Ubi will do, it will be bad- just cause t is Ubi ;/
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 08:37 AM |
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JotunLogi said:
Gosh, I do not understand- Dev tries to implement sth new, make sth different- like Necropolis with a spider symbol, units like lamassu- and people say it is bad, against the cannon
Dev models on sth popular or just uses common fantasy things- it is bad, just lazy copypasting
If an idea would turn to be good- it is not thanks to Ubi, it has jusst copypasted fans idea or modeled on fans mod
I have feeling that whatever Ubi will do, it will be bad- just cause t is Ubi ;/
This is in part due to many people trying to enjoy the same thing, and they all want different things. And usually, on the internet, people accentuate the negative. Thus, anything they don't like, they say it sucks, because people also like hyperbole. One person might dislike a few things, but like others. Then the next person might dislike the things he likes, but likes another. Then the next person, so on and so forth. Eventually, all parts are damned by one person or another. But what they can all agree on (up until now, with these votes) is that the developer is to blame. Thus...
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted April 05, 2015 08:43 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 09:04, 05 Apr 2015.
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@GenyaArikado
Here you have screenshots from Might and Magic 8:
Necromancers at start of game:
Vampires at the start of game:
Fully armed and operationed... undead 
 
Temple of Necromancer's Guild (vampires and liches) in Twilight (town not book ;P):
Temple of Dark Elves in Alvar:
Also about colour-coding:
Each faction in Ashan has their own general colours.
For Necropolis they are: black, white and "toxic green".
For Dungeon they are: Black and purple.
However in Clash of Heroes Necropolis was... purple:
So it's nothing unusual when we have again purple Necropolis in Heroes 7.
The problem is not spider theme per se but overused of it by Ubisoft. You enter town - spiders, you see undead units - spiders and spider-clothed liches, you open spell book... 
I personaly like H7 Necropolis town screen but this doesn't mean it is should have spiders everywhere.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 09:03 AM |
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Avonu said:
Also about colour-coding:
Each faction in Ashan has their own general colours.
For Necropolis they are: black, white and "toxic green".
For Dungeon they are: Black and purple.
However in Clash of Heroes Necropolis was... purple:
So it's nothing unusual when we have again purple Necropolis in Heroes 7.
As a side thing: The Necro were also green, and a teal/blue color. They were also purple, but they were still very green as well.
Even Inferno was Purple. So was Academy. They were also red and grey, or orange-y and blue, respectively, but they were also purple.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 10:08 AM |
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Protolisk said:
As a side thing: The Necro were also green, and a teal/blue color. They were also purple, but they were still very green as well.
Even Inferno was Purple. So was Academy. They were also red and grey, or orange-y and blue, respectively, but they were also purple.
Dungeon is also purple, but the most purple of them all is the Void. Sandro's followers are everywhere.  Clash of Heroes's Necropolis is the closest to Void Necropolis, lel
Actually, I feel like teal/blue would be the best way to go for the skin color of undead, although that could perhaps only apply to more cartoony games, like CoH...
I mean, I like the way it looks, you know?
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 02:10 PM |
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Thank you Avonu 
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 03:20 PM |
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Color coding in clash of heroes...? Every unit came in at least 3 different colors cause it was part of the game, not the lore. You guys are over thinking it
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 05, 2015 03:20 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
But we got both green and purple, ain't that too much for a coincidence? Don't forget that Erwan stated in the interview that he plays Warcraft.
Of course it isn't coincidence.
The problem here is that your root of association is Warcraft.
Whereas the root of the association goes back much further and should be Western Culture. The whole colour association thing is deeply rooted in Western Culture, both Warcraft and M&M are extrapolating on that because the people creating it are born into that culture. As are people who it is sold to, and if they are not born into it, they are very much exposed to it in media.
You're effectively blaming Erwan for being a Frenchman.
As far as the architecture goes, we're not gonna see eye to eye on that.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 05, 2015 04:04 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Thank you Avonu
Look there are tons of spiders, everyone is a spider actually. Also everyone is toxic green
War-overlord said:
You're effectively blaming Erwan for being a Frenchman.
Yes, everyone there is dressed in purple and green. In France purple and green are the official mourning colors, if you don't wear them at funerals you won't show respect for the deceased lawl
Warcraft and Ashan Heroes are like the only ones where purple and green are actively the only colors of undead. Maybe I didn't turn on my TV since stone age, but I always saw in movies/documentaries/the-same-media-that-manipulated-Erwan as black being associated with undead, or let's say in LotR where we got that greenish cyan, but guess what they got no purple lol
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 04:09 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
GenyaArikado said:
Thank you Avonu
Look there are tons of spiders, everyone is a spider actually. Also everyone is toxic green
I literally said "Necromancers and Vampires dressed in spider themed clothing" and "Green necromantic magic" and somehow you understood to "TONS OF SPIDERS AND GREEN EVERYWHERE"
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 04:13 PM |
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Frankly, I much prefer Heroes 6 designs of Necropolis to any visuals from the older games, spider-themed or not.
You won't ever be able to convince me that this doesn't look disgusting. Ever. Perhaps nostalgia blind some of you guys to it, but... This is not a decent design.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 05, 2015 04:18 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
I literally said "Necromancers and Vampires dressed in spider themed clothing" and "Green necromantic magic" and somehow you understood to "TONS OF SPIDERS AND GREEN EVERYWHERE"
Do you see any spiders there? I don't
And how can you compare that faint green and the fact that there's literally more cyan with the abomination of spider goo from h6-h7?
Sligneris said:
You won't ever be able to convince me that this doesn't look disgusting. Ever. Perhaps nostalgia blind you guys to it, but... This is not a decent design.
I just said it had no spiders, not that I like it
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 04:30 PM |
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Well, at least this is another common ground I found with someone who has an opposing opinion. On the other hand, I believe Geny compared this clothing to cobweb, which why he brought up spiders.
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Nuriel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 05, 2015 04:39 PM |
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Edited by Nuriel at 18:01, 05 Apr 2015.
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@LizardWarrior
I still doesn’t get through all of that Necropolis thread, but here are my few musings about your arguments 
A. Overuse of spiders
I suppose that you’re correct on this one.
However, most of yours concerns here are about the art style, not lore of Ashan itself
Of course, you can always say: “If necromancers wouldn’t be connected to the spiders, Ubisoft could not overuse them!”
That’s not exactly correct. There isn’t written anywhere in Great Book of Ashan that you’ll have to use spider motifs in design of every unit and building That is only the decision of th devs, nothing more. I could perfectly imagine new HoMM where spiders would exist only as symbol of the faction, Namtarus, and maybe one banner on the town screen.
TL : DR – Blame art directors instead of lore Ashan is not guilty on this one.
B. Spiders and Warcraft
Sorry, it doesn’t seems convincing at all. Even if we assume that you are right, and there is some resemblance between Nerubian and Heresh architecture, one spiderlike subspecies of the undead in Warcraft, couldn’t be count as “ripping of” or “plagiarizing”. Nerubians aren’t dominant group of the undead, neither Plague of Forsaken use spiders as their symbol etc.
Once again, it doesn’t equate in my book as “linking spiders with the undead”.
Besides, Nerubians are “classical” fantasy arachnoid-people species, with their own culture, civilization, kingdom etc. while Namtarus are more like “spirits” of Asha. So, you couldn’t really say that spiders were ripped off, because that trope was strongly changed and subverted.
Also, I think that is funny that you would prefer spiders in Dungeon faction. If you use spiderlike creature then franchise is suddenly Ruined Forever, but you could freely rip off from Forgotten Realms (Drows, Lolth – does it ring a bell? ) and everything is fine?
C. Necromancers and Spiders
I think that you all forgot about one Greek myth, that indisputably justify linking spiders with Ashan necromancers: Moirai. Fates. Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos.
Asha is not only goddess of Death, but also goddess of Fate, Time and Balance, which governs existence itself, cycle of reincarnation etc. Since Necromancers think of themselves as guardians of Balance and Order, what is the most obvious symbol for them than animal which is known of its ability of weaving threads (which are metaphor of human lives!)?
verriker said:
actually that's a major oversimplification, the classic necromancers did not intend to destroy the world, but the opposite, they personally saved the day more than a couple times lol (Archibald in MM6, Nimbus in Heroes 3, Sandro in MM8, Gauldoth in H4, etc)
Bah! That’s just nitpicking Change “destroy” to “rule” and we’re done here
verriker said:
how do you humanise a necromancer?
By making them servants of the uncaring highest god-creator? Reincarnation instead heaven and hell afterlife could also be the factor here.
verriker said:
all the same, Gauldoth, "molested as a child" as Erwin so eloquently put it, is the ultimate example that the classic necromancers had even more potential for depth than the Ashan ones; he's more Buddhistic than Arantir ever was, he doesn't just recite mindless fanatical slogans and engage in wars of ancestral prejudice, but thinks for himself and collaborates with his traditional enemies to survive
You’re right. IMHO Gauldoth is the best written character in all HoMM franchise, hands down. But he is great BECAUSE he is a deconstruction of classical evil necromancer. It works ONLY IF the necromancers ARE evil.
Furthermore, how many times that trick could work? Two? Three? Four. At best. Unwilling pawn, father desperately trying to brick her daughter to life and so on. You just could not use that trope too often.
Besides, there is much, much easier to make necromancer a “positive” hero in Ashan, instead of Antagarich. In old universe, “good” (or even “decent”) necros could exist only as exception to the rule. In Ashan hoverer, they are default, at least – and this is crucial – nominally.
From the story writing point of view Ashan necromancers are better. If you need, you can have a good necromancers without putting any effort. If you want evil necromancers – well, it isn’t really rare case when members of the organization or religion are following their tenet in the name only, is it?
And one final argument: Necromancers as good guys (well, sort of) are much more original than their classical evulz counterparts. And aren’t we all despise ripping off from other works…?
verriker said:
and I think people still like their mindless, conniving, power hungry necromancers anyway - Archibald was a fan favorite, Sandro is still acclaimed as one of the coolest heroes, even Markal is well liked, and all three of those guys were one dimensional villains who existed only to troll the forces of good lol
You’ve made really good point here. You’re right. I just realized that since H3:SOD we havent’ had a proper campaign for the wicked ones. Unless you’re counting Tawni Balfour and Markal, but their campaigns were only a drop in the sea of good guys scenarios.
But, once again: this is the fault of story writing, not lore or setting. If your point is that we should have more evil campaigns, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. But we can have them in new universe too, so this isn’t really argument for scrapping Ashan
GenyaArikado said:
It takes quite the level of mental gymnastics to be able to call something cliche and then complain about it not doing cliche stuff.
So. Much. This.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 04:42 PM |
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Tawni wasnt really evil, just...chaotic.
Regarding not having enough "evil" campaigns with that i can agree. Danse Macabre was technically one but it was a shortie.
LizardWarrior said:
GenyaArikado said:
I literally said "Necromancers and Vampires dressed in spider themed clothing" and "Green necromantic magic" and somehow you understood to "TONS OF SPIDERS AND GREEN EVERYWHERE"
Do you see any spiders there? I don't
And how can you compare that faint green and the fact that there's literally more cyan with the abomination of spider goo from h6-h7?
The clothes are styled after spiderwebs, they have the black widow red hourglass mark and the female necromancer is dressed like this
call me crazy but i think that's a spider.
can you snowing drop the cyan thing? the thing swirling around the skull/spider/ribcage thing is neon green. Can you just deal with the fact that those things present in Ashan were already present in the old MM games (just not in the same level)
Regarding green and purple uses
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SicklyGreenGlow
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SupernaturalIsPurple
Hell, the logic of associating spiders with dead is not even hard to get. Venom kills and segmented legs are reminiscent of bones, without mention that generally they're just plain scary. But you're just dead set
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 05, 2015 04:50 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
... lawl.... lol
Because when your arguments fail to hold water and convince people, making fun of them will surely do the trick.
You're personal antipathy agaist Erwan makes you want to see fault and you see around you that there are plenty people not convinced by your arguments.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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This thread is pages long: 
