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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Should Ashan be scraped?
Thread: Should Ashan be scraped? This thread is 42 pages long: 1 10 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 30 40 42 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 17, 2015 10:43 PM

Sligneris said:
I hate when people hate on Ashan. I love this game universe to be honest, and I actually think it's more climatic than the old one.

Would you care to develop on that opinion? Because I actually think the opposite.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 17, 2015 10:52 PM

Sligneris said:
I hate when people hate on Ashan. I love this game universe to be honest, and I actually think it's more climatic than the old one.
But neither have a weather system...

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 17, 2015 11:04 PM

The H1-H4 world of Erathia and beyond is much better because it isn't bogged down with so much lore, but it's a dead cause.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted February 17, 2015 11:41 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 00:12, 18 Feb 2015.

Galaad said:
Sligneris said:
I hate when people hate on Ashan. I love this game universe to be honest, and I actually think it's more climatic than the old one.

Would you care to develop on that opinion? Because I actually think the opposite.

I suppose I just like the mystical, fantastical nature of Ashan, while the old universe just seems to have some wizards being wizards, knights defending some generic kingdom, once or twice threatened by some generic evil undead. That, and some spacefaring alien races being kinda there. Mind you, it's not a final judgment, but a mere first impression, one I admittedly had at first with H5's Haven, before the faith of Elrath and its rules were made more apparent.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 18, 2015 12:58 AM

Sligneris said:
I suppose I just like the mystical, fantastical nature of Ashan, while the old universe just seems to have some wizards being wizards, knights defending some generic kingdom, once or twice threatened by some generic evil undead.
Switch out generic evil undead with inherently evil demonkin and it's pretty much Ashan.

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Greenlore
Greenlore


Known Hero
posted February 18, 2015 01:13 AM

Avirosb said:
Sligneris said:
I suppose I just like the mystical, fantastical nature of Ashan, while the old universe just seems to have some wizards being wizards, knights defending some generic kingdom, once or twice threatened by some generic evil undead.
Switch out generic evil undead with inherently evil demonkin and it's pretty much Ashan.


While those evil demons invaded ashan,they actually weren't the main enemy in HVI,which was actually more the haven faction.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 18, 2015 08:06 AM

Greenlore said:
While those evil demons invaded ashan,they actually weren't the main enemy in HVI,which was actually more the haven faction.
So less demonkin and more Game of Thrones knock-offs then.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 18, 2015 08:37 AM

Sligneris said:
Galaad said:
Sligneris said:
I hate when people hate on Ashan. I love this game universe to be honest, and I actually think it's more climatic than the old one.

Would you care to develop on that opinion? Because I actually think the opposite.

I suppose I just like the mystical, fantastical nature of Ashan, while the old universe just seems to have some wizards being wizards, knights defending some generic kingdom, once or twice threatened by some generic evil undead. That, and some spacefaring alien races being kinda there. Mind you, it's not a final judgment, but a mere first impression, one I admittedly had at first with H5's Haven, before the faith of Elrath and its rules were made more apparent.
I guess you missed out on all the side-quests from H3 then, like Krewlod and Tatalia just taking advantage of the chaos in Erathia for their own ends, or the later struggle of the people of the so-called contested lands to set up a home without outside interference (a campaign very close to part of the backstory of the Ashen Dungeon). Armageddon's Blade went still further with only one campaign focussed on the main events, while all the others were there as world-building.

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Danny
Danny


Famous Hero
posted February 18, 2015 11:09 AM
Edited by Danny at 11:09, 18 Feb 2015.

Greenlore said:
Avirosb said:
Sligneris said:
I suppose I just like the mystical, fantastical nature of Ashan, while the old universe just seems to have some wizards being wizards, knights defending some generic kingdom, once or twice threatened by some generic evil undead.
Switch out generic evil undead with inherently evil demonkin and it's pretty much Ashan.


While those evil demons invaded ashan,they actually weren't the main enemy in HVI,which was actually more the haven faction.


Not sure about that, practically each campaign featured all the other factions as enemies and the final maps of non-Inferno campaigns were against Inferno, including 3 bosses from that faction...

Can't wait for H7's Inferno-free campaigns.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 18, 2015 12:11 PM

blizzardboy said:
The H1-H4 world of Erathia and beyond is much better because it isn't bogged down with so much lore, but it's a dead cause.

Erathia was a kingdom on the continent of Antagarich in Enroth, the latter being the setting for Heroes of Might and Magic I, Heroes of Might and Magic II, and Might and Magic VI. It was located north of Antagarich, where Heroes III takes place, while Axeoth is the main setting of Heroes of Might and Magic IV.
I will tend to agree with the end of your sentence though.

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rodaff
rodaff

Tavern Dweller
posted February 18, 2015 07:13 PM

I prefer Enroth, IMO the lore and the stories set in Ashan are pretty bad.
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JotunLogi
JotunLogi


Known Hero
posted February 18, 2015 07:35 PM



As all fantasy worlds and stories, Ashan has its upsides and downsides.

As major drawbacks I find especially those things:

- Dragons. In my opinion, dragon should be powerful, fearsome creatures that are carnivores and have rather evil than good nature. Some of them should be able to speak or  be evil rulers obsessed with idea of ruling the world. It is a bit lame and common- but this is how dragons are. It is core of the fantasy genre- alongside fireballs and wizards- and changing it is risky. I do not like those new dragons- most of them looks like aliens (especially Asha hersellf), not like european dragons as we all love and know. Aslo they are more human than they should be- the way they behave, act and move are prime example of that

Here is special metion to  black dragon that  in M&M: Heroes 6 looks like alien (helmet, scales, claws, face) mixed with butterly wings and dog's body. Terrible.

- Dragon fetish. Dev overuses this word, image of that mighty creature  and everything what is connected to that and what comes to mind when we think about "dragon".  It is used nn story, names, design. STOP! I am fed up with that! Calm down, there are plenty others cool and more appropriate creatures- like phoenix

- Religion and gods. Creating religion is hard and it is hard to jugde if it is good or not (even  religions in real life- it is highly controversial topic). Most of dieties of  ashan I really like- Elrath is well designed, also Ylath and Arkath, Sylanna (and the water dragon). I like their imapct, connections and relations with other dieties,  factions and even creatures.

The fact that those are dragons s not that bad (better- if they were just gods... or some of them other creatures). But Asha and Urgash (so most important of them) are just  too much, I really do not like the lore behind them, they are too tacky, do not suit me that at all. They are boring, create too huge holes in the plot. Better would be if they identyties would be unknown- or even f there would be some mix of those two

- In all Ashan there is the same religion- so why they are praying to different gods (dwarrves created by Arkath, ok), fight each other and discuss about those things. This creates too big logical probles that are beond solving. I find it biggest flow of Asha, together with dieties. Greek mythology is cool but full of gaps, far better as mix of different stories than as a system (nordic is better in that matter- cause it has ending- really good ending)

-- Design. Oh boy, the big one. I rather prefer normal style, cclassic fantasy in terms of design, projects and overall look. Eventually some world that is completely over the top. Here we have mix of things, some really different things that, when put alltogether give... some weird stuff. It feels like mixture of sugar with  onion- each on its own good but together not as good as he have had imagined.

Haven is  mix of manga- warhammer- warcraft-styled knights and some weird Dr Doom-looking priests with stupid masks. Even the cross looks really modern and... artificial. Griffin armour- hell no. Also big "no" for anime styled weapons and armours. Angels in HoMM 5 resembles more heroes of anime than those we know from medieval minatures or just modern image used in commercials.

Other design I do not like is Inferno- in HoMM 5 it was fine, althugh demons look there a little bit too bulky, like strongmen. But in DoC and M&M: heroes 6  they look like aliens! They resemble  creatures from "The Thing" directed by Carpenter or some tacky horrors. It does not fit the game at all! Just look at breed mother or the  architecture ot Inferno town in Heroes 6- some weird organic-like material from "Älien" series. Also here I must metion  tormentor- no skin, just flesh and spikes and tendons. Good design for horrors and sci- fi, not for classic fantasy

Also Necropolis is disappointing- here we have overuse of  spider symbol that is put everywhere. Rather childsh spiders and spikes are even visible in the townscreen presented in art made for M&M: Heroes 7. Enough of that! Also liches should be powerful mages- now we have some poor looking people instead, vampire should remain vampire- not knight and drag queen at the same time (in M&M: Heroes 6 they look cool, must admit). Bone dragons- model of black dragon from M&M: Hereos 6.  Bad idea.

There are other things that I would done in different way- like no blind wyvernas (yes, here I am just a casual hater b**** for every detail)

- Townscreens- rather problem of bad design and taste of his author but generally in Ashan each faction consists of obuildings built in only one style/ To put it simply- towns in Asha are boring, with bad building placement, childish walls and lack of buildings

- Main plot and storytelling. Stereotypical, overcool, uses some of the most tacky tricks in the history of humanity- like swapping good and evil, some major twist that everyone know that they are going to  happen.

To be fair, it is really hard nowadays  to be original when almost everything was used many times. so sometimes using popular sources is not that bad. In hoMM 5 the story  was not that bad- I would say it was quite good, somehow griping and interesting.


 But in M&M:Heroes 6 the plot is just boring, unimpressive, extremely tacky and we all know that "this one is a good guy, that one has sth behind". Angels are strange from the very beginning. Overall the impression is bad, the story is not well moved and presented.

- Dialogues and cinematics. About the first one- they are faint, shallow and childish as much as they could be, like in soap operas. About the otter- they try to be too "cool"and are by that overused. Due to them I have impression that Ashan is inhabited by rather dull society and boring people

- Some characters like Anton or Anastasia- dull, boring really bad written. Too shallow or stereotypical, cheesy... or over the top. some pretend to be cool but are not.

- Artifacts. I do not like them. Awful design (especially bad in M&M: Heroes 6- some look like alien's armours), bad stories (or even lack of them), not impressive and not do not give any satisfaction. Just dreadful, hate them.

- Ashan tries (even hardtries) way too much to be realistic, each thing must be explained and have sense. That is somehow cool- but the aim will not be achieved cause it is impossible. It is just fantasy and should remain so. Acting as real world is silly and the world by that is even less credible. By that Dev creates more questions. Also Ashan should not be that serious. Besides, some things must remain mystery- for the good of the story. The more mystereis, te better.

- The plot and lore are too big and widespreaded through ages. It is extremely hard to follow all names and events. What is worse, without knowing all games and stories that had happened, it quite a challange to  understand some jokes in the game. As effect of that, the story itself is unclear.

- tears of Asha- just grail, why to change that one? Now it s not that cool, rather stupid

Those are major minuses. Suprisignly I like Ashan and prefer it to older worlds in M&M universe. It is because:

+ Lore and world created by NWC were not ideal. Although player can enjoy the story and main plot without knowing the universe due to the fact that the main story was rather universal and simple  (that is why I consider stories in hoMM 3 and homm 2 as the best in the series), overall the general story was overtwisted- as examples can serve Shadows of Death and HoMM 4 campaings. They were also overtalked- often there was more reading than actual playing.

Not to mention the fact that general sci- fi story was rather controversial. I understand it and somehow accept but at the same time do not like it. Mixing sci-fi and classic fantasy... is not for me. The point is that it is at the same time a source of some big plot holes and illogical things (even bigger than religion in Ashan). why Kreegans do not use futuristic ships and weapons in hoMM 3, they have just landed there!


Also the idea of portals and other worlds was a bit overdone and too complicated.

+ Also the design of some creatures was not that good in older Heroes, we have to have in mind- altough prerer moreclassic style

+ Ashan is beatutiful, really breathtaking- although many creatures are weird and I do not like them and their design, all in all the world of Ashan is astonishing. The best prove of that are DOC and Academy's design. Some creatures are amazing, the world is vast and intersting, full of magic places, fauna and lora rich, there is always sth worth to looking at...Ashan is vast, huge, beautfil, done with passion and determination. THe prove of it are number of names, towns, lands and links to all thing in M&M franchise


+ The general story is well constructed, enormous and complex - And what is the most important,  generally logical and rational. The ideas and motives behind the actions and events are understandable, the way  how the heroes act and behave- rather normal (what is a good thing), not stupid, there is something behind the plot that connects events in same way... Overall story is believable, just  the main plot and storytelling in the game are disappointing

+ some elements of  the design and the lore are good, far better than in older Heroes where anything was not that complex

+ I like new orcs- they have good lore, good look (not tacky green and lack of personality), also Academy is cool

+ Sanctuary is one of the better factions in M&M history with original design and good abilities

+  There are not that many twists and everything is not just changing in a second as it was in older Heroes. Here we can enjoy the story, earlier everything was done in a hurry, the world and the plot were so complicated that Dev was forced to create a new world

+ In Ashan there are plenty things to discover- we do not know many cool things and we know only one continent! So Dev has proprer tools to expand the story, suprise us without destroying everything he has built till now

+ the story, lands and factions are based on some real stories and countries what is cool because  gives more depth and some realistic breath to the universe. Especially I like the lore and design (in terms of general onception) of Haven (although should be just Holy Empire, without adding Falcon or Griffin-both  tacky and childish) and Academy that have really well written stories and interesting connections with other factions

+ Factions are no longer allignments with just cool creatures and look but without any connections and shared together story. In older heroes some creatures have nth in common with the faction in M&M games- now they are more believable and interesting, give more options in creating interesting lineuos. Also like the fact that each faction has its own style and tactics which has references in its lore and story- I find that amazing and that is a thing that strongly affects the gameplay and fun

+ The world makes full use of different locations (even sky islands), its story (even the one i have complained earlier) and potential hidden in them


Overall, I like Ashan. It is not perfect, has many things that must be done better- but most of them are the effect of the bad main story, design and projects that can be made better. The story itself is wewll written and complex. I wish only that the religion aspect will be fixed and more mysterious, less serious and by that- more logical. And that there will be less dragon- fetish. I would gladly want classic fantasy with classic wizards.

Thanl You for Your attention and sorry for all mistakes- have jsut checked it but I am certain there are some illogical things and issues that I have messed up or left unsolved.


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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 19, 2015 09:25 PM
Edited by MattII at 21:55, 19 Feb 2015.

It must be remembered though, that Enroth of the HoMM series is written differently to the same world in the MM series. In HoMM the sci-fi elements are played down, because the characters are no longer adventurers travelling from world to world, but peasants and nobles of one world, with an understanding of the situation that's more superstitious than scientific.

As for the story, H1 had but one campaign IIRC, and H2 had but two, so variation from the main plot was limited. H3 have more variation, a little in RoE, and that mostly around the edges of the main campaign, but branching out in AB into campaigns that had absolutely zero to do with the main plot, and this continued somewhat in SoD, although in that case only two of the campaigns were away from the main plot. Compare that to H5, where virtually everything around the entire run ended up as 'kill the demons' and I'd say H3 story-writing compares rather favourably.

Also, NWC did not shy away from involving outright villain protagonists one bit, whereas Ubisoft seems to have done so, at least in H5.

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted February 26, 2015 06:15 PM

I vote no. Ashan is indeed a cliche and boring theme with dragons, but then again, it's better than the old with martians blasting you with lazer guns at the end of each game. I also vote no because I firmly believe Ubisuck isn't able to come up with an interesting story anyways. It would be like trashing Ashan for another, equally cliche and boring world.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted February 27, 2015 09:02 AM

Kayna said:
I vote no. Ashan is indeed a cliche and boring theme with dragons, but then again, it's better than the old with martians blasting you with lazer guns at the end of each game.

Each HoMM game? Martians? What?

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted February 27, 2015 09:04 AM

It was only in the RPG's and Action RPG. And not all of them :-P but yes it was a major turn off for a lot of people (See the Forge problem again)

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castlevania
castlevania


Hired Hero
posted March 13, 2015 04:31 PM

As a fan of HoMM III and IV I have to say I prefer Ashan over the "old" worlds. It is just more interesting to me and it feels complete. I did not enjoy Might and Magic series that were set in the "old" worlds but I enjoyed M&M X Legacy! I also loved Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. The adventure of Sareth and the open ending where you choose to embrace the demons or save the world - at least for me was amazing. I can't wait for HoMM 7 and I really hope they make expansions with the dwarfs and the demons! I am kinda sick of elves

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 13, 2015 04:34 PM

castlevania said:
As a fan of HoMM III and IV I have to say I prefer Ashan over the "old" worlds.


I'm not a prophet, but I have a strong feeling that somebody would call you "not a fan of H3"...
^_^
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
The 'tightest 'ship of 'eroes
posted March 13, 2015 04:36 PM

I agree with you, Castlevania! Wasn't it awesome to have a multiple-choice ending in a Might&Magic game at last?

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castlevania
castlevania


Hired Hero
posted March 14, 2015 06:14 PM

verriker said:
I agree with you, Castlevania! Wasn't it awesome to have a multiple-choice ending in a Might&Magic game at last?


It was amazing indeed! We need more games like Dark Messiah of Might and Magic!

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