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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Battle of the Bluebirds - The Phoenix / Magic Bird issue
Thread: Battle of the Bluebirds - The Phoenix / Magic Bird issue This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
lokdron
lokdron


Famous Hero
posted September 20, 2014 01:22 AM
Edited by lokdron at 01:29, 20 Sep 2014.

Royin said:
lokdron said:
Problem is that fundamentally it doesn't fit and no twisting of writing is going to help they released the lore on the unit today. It says its connected to asha.

All the other units got info on how they are connected with said faction with the Phoenix I don't see it. Personally I was quite interested on how they would justify it when we finally got to creatures part 2.

Still what happened was the opposite.

"The Phoenix is one of the most powerful spirits of Light. It embodies the primal life-force, indomitable, and ever-reborn. A young Phoenix is recognizable to its silvery feathers that scholars interpret as a sign that the Phoenix channels some of its Primordial powers from Asha herself. However, as it grows older and more powerful, the sacred bird loses its silver feathers and grows a golden and blazing plumage."

Mind you the scholars think it is connected to Asha because of the silvery feathers. But apparently the upgrade makes the Phoenix 'golden and blazing' which contradicts the scholar's previous interpretation.


Problem is why put such a line if it has nothing to do with asha? Plus what kills your argument. This line here It embodies the "primal life-force" Plus "ever-reborn" Now I wonder who is connected to prime? Who chief area does this belong to? Asha that's who the only other dragon that can claim that is urgash. Oh and who is connected to death and resurrection/reincarnation? That's Asha's domain again.

Those things are not Sylvanna's domain in heroes 6 they state prime, death, rebirth, reincarnation, order and spirits is asha's charge even the dragons who are the children/avatar of their respective gods state this.

So yeah I would say the shcolars are pretty right on the mark that its connected to asha maybe for the wrong reasons but they are right that its connected to her.

It does not fit within the faction heck Stevie said the phoenix  would fit better in haven or necropolis than sylvan and he is right. As Stevie said they had one chance and they blew it.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted September 20, 2014 01:24 AM

Royin said:
Mind you the scholars think it is connected to Asha because of the silvery feathers.


sorry but it's made very, very clear in H6 that phoenixes are linked to Asha, nice try but there is zero wiggle room
it literally confirms they're linked to Asha and have moon nests in the sky or some ****

they wrote themselves into a corner here, either it stays with Asha and messes around with the whole Sylvan worships the earth goddess thing, or it gets yet another retcon, or it isn't the same kind of phoenix,
but whatever, the writing will still suck anyway lol

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Pavijan
Pavijan


Adventuring Hero
posted September 20, 2014 01:28 AM
Edited by Pavijan at 01:32, 20 Sep 2014.

Stevie said:
Royin said:

Face it, no matter how you look at it, Phoenix does NOT fit Sylvan.


How 'bout this :
Phoenix is a rare and majestic bird that lives solitary in the depths of the forests of Irollan. It considers its elven neighbors as friends and helps them in defending their mutual home when the need arises. The End.
See, it really isn't that hard to come up with something like that. Nevermid with which god it is connected : Asha, Sylanna or whatever silly thing from that stupid Ashan lore. God, I hate it so much...

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 20, 2014 01:31 AM
Edited by Stevie at 01:32, 20 Sep 2014.

Pavijan said:
Stevie said:
Royin said:

Face it, no matter how you look at it, Phoenix does NOT fit Sylvan.


How 'bout this :
Phoenix is a rare and majestic bird that lives solitary in the depths of the forests of Irollan. It considers its elven neighbors as friends and helps them in defending their mutual home when the need arises. The End.
See, it really isn't that hard to come up with something like that.




It actually is because:

1. It comes flying in the face of previous established lore
2. If it was that simple, why didn't they said exactly what you said right now? You think they'll get a better ocasion? LOL, we're voting for it right now!

Want me to tell you why? BECAUSE IT SIMPLY DOESN'T FIT! Without retconing there's no way out of here.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted September 20, 2014 01:35 AM

Pavijan said:
How 'bout this :
Phoenix is a rare and majestic bird that lives solitary in the depths of the forests of Irollan. It considers its elven neighbors as friends and helps them in defending their mutual home when the need arises. The End.
See, it really isn't that hard to come up with something like that. Nevermid with which god it is connected : Asha, Sylanna or whatever silly thing from that stupid Ashan lore. God, I hate it so much...



oh I wish they would leave it as nice and simple as that lol, you have no idea how much I agree,
but hey, these games are now designed by clowns who think it's sensible to explain that fire giants are secretly giant dwarves coated in magma lol

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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 20, 2014 01:52 AM

Pavijan said:
Stevie said:
Royin said:

Face it, no matter how you look at it, Phoenix does NOT fit Sylvan.


How 'bout this :
Phoenix is a rare and majestic bird that lives solitary in the depths of the forests of Irollan. It considers its elven neighbors as friends and helps them in defending their mutual home when the need arises. The End.
See, it really isn't that hard to come up with something like that. Nevermid with which god it is connected : Asha, Sylanna or whatever silly thing from that stupid Ashan lore. God, I hate it so much...



"Phoenix is a primordial spirit related to the "life" aspect of Aha, and as such, intimately related to the full moon.
It embodies the primal lifeforce, immortal, ever-born.
If a Phoenix dies in the material world, its spirit does not depart immediately back to its "moon-nest", but rather materialises again as a rejuvenated Phoenix, who moves with the zest and velocity of a shooting star.
During this "rebirth" process, a part of its original power is instantly subsumed into the pure light. It is for this reason that, although this miracle is quite an amazing sight, it is something best viewed from a distance."

The phoenixes we have today are more connected to "cosmological forces". That's why it is associated to Asha.
The "life" characteristic of phoenixes isn't associated with the characteristic of nature to spring life. It's something more, it's linked to the most basic and primal forces that created the whole universe.
That's why it's is associated with the moon and stars.

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Royin
Royin


Adventuring Hero
posted September 20, 2014 01:53 AM
Edited by Royin at 01:54, 20 Sep 2014.

Yeah, I wish they added a reasonable lore too instead of lazily copy-pasting HHoM6's description.

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Pavijan
Pavijan


Adventuring Hero
posted September 20, 2014 01:59 AM

jhb said:

"Phoenix is a primordial spirit related to the "life" aspect of Aha, and as such, intimately related to the full moon.
It embodies the primal lifeforce, immortal, ever-born.
If a Phoenix dies in the material world, its spirit does not depart immediately back to its "moon-nest", but rather materialises again as a rejuvenated Phoenix, who moves with the zest and velocity of a shooting star.
During this "rebirth" process, a part of its original power is instantly subsumed into the pure light. It is for this reason that, although this miracle is quite an amazing sight, it is something best viewed from a distance."

The phoenixes we have today are more connected to "cosmological forces". That's why it is associated to Asha.
The "life" characteristic of phoenixes isn't associated with the characteristic of nature to spring life. It's something more, it's linked to the most basic and primal forces that created the whole universe.
That's why it's is associated with the moon and stars.

Yeah. And even with all that in mind, it can still choose to live in the forest.

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Doomhammer
Doomhammer


Known Hero
Smasher of pasties
posted September 20, 2014 02:12 AM

Blue, silver, golden, red, magic, moonix, phoenix.... im confused, isn't a phoenix a phoenix anymore

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hammerhand
hammerhand


Hired Hero
posted September 20, 2014 05:01 AM

I just glad to know phoenix would be golden.let's see some pictures from Internet.
golden pheonix




and the magic bird should be from horus

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted September 20, 2014 06:43 AM
Edited by yogi at 06:46, 20 Sep 2014.

alcibiades said:
is Phoenix and Magic Bird too similar

yes

alcibiades said:
If Phoenix gets voted in, should developers find another champion for Academy instead of Magic Bird?

yes.

Steyn said:
Why not replace the magic bird with the phoenix?

yes!

Stevie said:



yes - great lineup

Stevie said:

-Haven worships Light by which's power they can Heal and Resurrect, also life and death; And in the Phoenix's description it is also mentioned that is a creature of Light.

i agree that phoenix fits better in 1.academy or 2.haven, and even better still...
lokdron said:
The phoenix should be a neutral recruitable or a summon creature that's it.

^this is ideal
but phoenix in sylvan is better than no phoenix at all.

hammerhand said:

and the magic bird should be from horus


wonderful idea!
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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 20, 2014 07:18 AM
Edited by jhb at 07:18, 20 Sep 2014.

yogi said:

lokdron said:
The phoenix should be a neutral recruitable or a summon creature that's it.

^this is ideal
but phoenix in sylvan is better than no phoenix at all.



I also agree that this would be ideal. And you can be 200% sure that phoenix will be in the game, they were in EVERY single HoMM game.

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Sorts
Sorts


Known Hero
posted September 20, 2014 07:35 AM

I'm usually just stalking these boards. But just all the Sylvan line-up warring and whining... well.

I don't give a s**t if there are two similar creatures in game, as long as they have different abilities and gameplay.

Arcane bird and phoenix similar? Perhaps Houses Anima and Materia experimented in creating some sort of artificial phoenix, giving reason why they are similar. Just one possibility, we don't know any lore behind, but well it can be way to go (not that HoMM3 crybabies would care... tbh HoMM firebird/phoenix was pretty much a reskinned roc with flame atatck.)  

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted September 20, 2014 07:44 AM
Edited by yogi at 08:10, 20 Sep 2014.

jhb said:

I also agree that this would be ideal. And you can be 200% sure that phoenix will be in the game, they were in EVERY single HoMM game.


when you put it that way it does entice me to change my vote to fury.. i wish i could be as certain as you that if they didnt make it in this election then they would still be in the game somewhere else.
something really doesnt feel right about treants being champions to me either though.

i couldnt get into h6, how were phoenixes in that game?
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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 20, 2014 08:06 AM
Edited by jhb at 08:17, 20 Sep 2014.

yogi said:
jhb said:

I also agree that this would be ideal. And you can be 200% sure that phoenix will be in the game, they were in EVERY single HoMM game.


when you put it that way it does entice me to change my vote to fury.. i wish i could be as certain as you that if they didnt make it in this election then they would still be in the game somewhere else.

i couldnt get into h6, how were phoenixes in that game?


The artwork was similar to what was shown in the official page.
The lore was +- as I described above, let me copy for you:
jhb said:

"Phoenix is a primordial spirit related to the "life" aspect of Aha, and as such, intimately related to the full moon.
It embodies the primal lifeforce, immortal, ever-born.
If a Phoenix dies in the material world, its spirit does not depart immediately back to its "moon-nest", but rather materialises again as a rejuvenated Phoenix, who moves with the zest and velocity of a shooting star.
During this "rebirth" process, a part of its original power is instantly subsumed into the pure light. It is for this reason that, although this miracle is quite an amazing sight, it is something best viewed from a distance."

The phoenixes we have today are more connected to "cosmological forces". That's why it is associated to Asha.
The "life" characteristic of phoenixes isn't associated with the characteristic of nature to spring life. It's something more, it's linked to the most basic and primal forces that created the whole universe.
That's why it's is associated with the moon and stars.


You could summon then with an artifact called "Moon Disk", iirc.
However, I think making them a high level summoning spell (H5 style) would be better. It could make them a little more accessible.

About the abilities they had:
Death Ward: The creature is immune to all forms of magic from the path of blood and reduces damage (magic) dealt to her by 10(+power)%
Moonfire Aura: Enemy creatures attacking or being attacked by the creature are dealt 29(+stats, +num, +power2) damage (prime). This damage can't be healed.
Rebirth: The creature has the supreme ability to rebirth. Heals the creature for 50(+stats, +num) health and deals 15(+stats, +num) damage (prime) to all adjacent enemy stacks. Destroyed creature stacks are automatically returned to life. This damage can't be healed.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted September 20, 2014 08:12 AM

jhb said:

You could summon then with an artifact called "Moon Disk", iirc.
However, I think making them a high level summoning spell (H5 style) would be better. It could make them a little more accessible.


interesting..

i agree
____________

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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 20, 2014 08:23 AM
Edited by jhb at 08:28, 20 Sep 2014.

yogi said:
jhb said:

You could summon then with an artifact called "Moon Disk", iirc.
However, I think making them a high level summoning spell (H5 style) would be better. It could make them a little more accessible.


interesting..

i agree


added the abilities from the fan manual in the post above. =p
Overall I remember they had a pretty high magic resistance and immunity to most (if not all) offensive magic. Moonfire aura was like a fire shield and rebirth could be used anytime and was auto-cast on death, iirc.

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adriancat
adriancat


Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
posted September 20, 2014 08:50 AM

Please, no bird, no blue chicken, no golden chicken. This isn't Elrath, this is Sylanna. So vote for its FURY

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 20, 2014 09:51 AM

Stevie said:
Pavijan said:

However, as it grows older and more powerful, the sacred bird loses its silver feathers and grows a golden and blazing plumage.


Marzhin said:
blizz said:
@Marzhin does that mean Phoenix will be a Moonix then?


Upgraded version at least is very likely to be, yes.


The contradiction here is glaring.

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Sorts
Sorts


Known Hero
posted September 20, 2014 09:58 AM
Edited by Sorts at 10:09, 20 Sep 2014.

alcibiades said:
Stevie said:
Pavijan said:

However, as it grows older and more powerful, the sacred bird loses its silver feathers and grows a golden and blazing plumage.


Marzhin said:
blizz said:
@Marzhin does that mean Phoenix will be a Moonix then?


Upgraded version at least is very likely to be, yes.


The contradiction here is glaring.


Marzhin also commented later that he was mistaken in that post and that the upgrade will be golden.

Edit: Cliked post a bit early. Although i feel that it belongs to another phoenix or sylvan lineup thread. The whole issue with the lore behind the phoenix smells a bit like a minor retcon. I have no problem in bringing back more classic phoenix and their more light oriented elements from h5, while keeping also the H6 variant a canon. Maybe they could have done it a different creature, a moon phoenix (like the DoC card).

Saldy people are unable to see the attempt to bring them two together.

Fixing lore through minor (wit some bigger if necessary) retcons and some adjustments is well... better than blowing up a world.

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