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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: deja vu?
Thread: deja vu? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
krs
krs


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2014 09:56 AM

deja vu?

"We will return to the proven recipe of H3...add a little H5"... but lets just change completely battle mechanics by adding flanking...

I am not a regular of this forum so can anyone some up the opinions on this major change?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 05, 2014 10:01 AM

Yep Erwan and Black Hole did say they wanted the game close to H3 in H6... LOL

Now for H7 we will get non-random skillwheel...

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted October 05, 2014 10:10 AM

krs said:
"We will return to the proven recipe of H3...add a little H5"... but lets just change completely battle mechanics by adding flanking...

I am not a regular of this forum so can anyone some up the opinions on this major change?

From what I've heard, opinions are rather positive and they really should be that way.

Flanking is new mechanic in these kind of games, introduced in Might & Magic Heroes online and Age of Wonders 3 and it really improves battle a lot. Positioning matters a lot more and units that are badly positioned are punished for it more than before, and whole battle feels a lot more tactical whatsoever.

You have to think twice before you charge with your units into battle.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 05, 2014 10:13 AM

I'm not sure about flaking myself. But I guess it can make players think twice before they make a decision from where to attack, front - side - behind.

Skill wheel on the other hand.. I'm glad it's H5 style, but I'm not glad at all that's All Pick format. Randomness had it's flavor and it had a more "heroes" feel. And it wasn't completely random. For example Heroes 3 had weigh tables and exceptions rules for Wisdom and Magic schools. Heroes 5 had percentages per class. So it can be developed in a matter that would favor a specific growth while not removing other possibilities.

With All Pick you lose the mystery, the depth, the lucky feel when you got something you wanted. Imagine if I were planning to go on a fishing trip, and I would know in advance what type of fish I'd get, when I'd get it, and how much of it I'd get. That'd be my worse fishing session ever. Now look at All Pick, you'd know exactly what you'd get, when you'd get it, and you'd have a pretty good idea how much of it you'd get based on the map (especially if you've played it before). Bye bye replayability. There won't be any "heroes" feeling after you'd play the map once or twice, because from that moment onward, you'd know how each map would unfold regardless of how many times you'd play it.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 05, 2014 10:23 AM

I did play a bit of Heroes Online but I didn't like it that much. I really don't like the battle system : archers gets 1 move + shot (really???) and the flanking/backstab isn't good implemented. Okay it's a beta, but still, for me the best battles I ever had (and still have) was in H3. I hope next time I hotseat H3 with a good friend we think of recording it.

@Stevie : I completely agree, random is part of HoMM formula. You can free build your character in any other RPG, Heroes was different, again.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 05, 2014 10:27 AM

I don't know what the final version will look like but I would favour a flanking that is carried out by a second unit adjacent to the target when the first unit attacks. You attack and the other unit that is already in position, flanks the target. Otherwise flanking would be little different to a glorified charge, move around to hit the unit more. And what about flyers, would they get a backstab just by flying over the unit? Are H7 units so stupid that they would watch a stack walk around them and hit them from the side or from behind? There SHOULD be a second stack to create a diversion, whether it is the one that provides the flank or provides the cover for it. Otherwise flanking would be too easy and cheap.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 05, 2014 10:29 AM
Edited by Galaad at 10:30, 05 Oct 2014.

Elvin said:
Otherwise flanking would be too easy and cheap.

Tnat's how it appeared to me in Heroes Online, though I didn't play it much.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted October 05, 2014 10:37 AM
Edited by RMZ1989 at 10:38, 05 Oct 2014.

Elvin said:
I don't know what the final version will look like but I would favour a flanking that is carried out by a second unit adjacent to the target when the first unit attacks. You attack and the other unit that is already in position, flanks the target. Otherwise flanking would be little different to a glorified charge, move around to hit the unit more. And what about flyers, would they get a backstab just by flying over the unit? Are H7 units so stupid that they would watch a stack walk around them and hit them from the side or from behind? There SHOULD be a second stack to create a diversion, whether it is the one that provides the flank or provides the cover for it. Otherwise flanking would be too easy and cheap.

Oh come on Elvin. The battle represents hundreds and thousands of creatures fighting and yet we have just that small battlefield with few creatures on the screen. Units are not stupid per se, but you can imagine that when some units walk around to flank, the actual distance is a lot bigger in real life and that those units couldn't see them.
Why wouldn't flyers get a backstab by just flying over? They are flying so high that enemy can't see them and are surprising their enemy units.

The only thing that I would remove from Heroes online flanking system, is being able to flank a unit that is on defense.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 05, 2014 11:00 AM

The whole flanking concept is flawed. It favours attack above all other stats. Start the battle, get your haste on, be the first to backstab and you already managed to decimate the target on the first turn.
The consequence is going to be that to stop the units from flanking eachother every turn back and forth most units are going to get less speed.
It can not be properly balanced.
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cleglaw
cleglaw


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2014 12:19 PM
Edited by cleglaw at 12:25, 05 Oct 2014.

Wow you guys are soo close-minded.

its a bonus making battles more tactical. i played AoW 3, and it felt very good.

Why you have to complain eveytime a new feature comes in? there is no point in playing a new game if you are this much close minded to reject somethings can make it better. just install WoG and there you go.

flanking? its a bonus tactical feature but oh well screw it. cause i want exact same copy again and again.


non-random skill wheel? oh well its much more strategical but screw it cause i want exact copy of the same game over and over.

navigation or eagle eye???.. but okay its better to have old system.

WHAT?

really amazing.

thruth should be undisguised. most of you guys are stuck in old times. refresh yourselves because ubi have goal of 100,000fans. dont be minority after game released. i know what is like to be in minority, and it sucks.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted October 05, 2014 12:20 PM

fuChris said:
The whole flanking concept is flawed. It favours attack above all other stats. Start the battle, get your haste on, be the first to backstab and you already managed to decimate the target on the first turn.
The consequence is going to be that to stop the units from flanking eachother every turn back and forth most units are going to get less speed.
It can not be properly balanced.

I don't see why not. Give the player the proper tools like spells, with dual effects and tactical use, creatures with synergies, skills based on support and reduction of the features impact. reduce the speed of units. There are many ways how to adress this feature. And the fact that units have a lot fewer abilities helps this a lot.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 05, 2014 12:33 PM
Edited by fuChris at 12:36, 05 Oct 2014.

cleglaw said:
Wow you guys are soo close-minded.

its a bonus making battles more tactical. i played AoW 3, and it felt very good.

Why you have to complain and eveytime a new feature comes in? there is no point in playing a new game if you are this much close minded.

non-random skill wheel? oh well its much more strategical but screw it cause i want exact copy of the same game over and over.

flanking? its a bonus tactical feature but oh well screw it. cause i want exact same copy again and again.

really amazing.

yeah i returned now, but with much more "disrespect". truth should be told undisguised.


It's not closemindedness, simply the fact that there are a lot of problems with the practical implementation of these features.
The random skillwheel is a taste of prefenrence (one that I like) however the one heroes game that had absolutely no randomness in skillchoice was the worst of the series skill-wise.

The flanking is a more problematic thing. Heroes is not like AoW3. It is more chesslike. The whole point of a flanking manouver is to hit the enemy where it hurts while it is engaged against another opponent. So unless flanking only works when it is done by a unit that you haven't attacked last turn, it will cause problems. Higher speed units will always get a flank attack if the units back is unguarded and if it is guarded that means a bad use of another unit.
It is simply a bad design choice if it is implemented so simplemindedly.


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cleglaw
cleglaw


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2014 12:38 PM
Edited by cleglaw at 12:44, 05 Oct 2014.

fuChris said:

It's not closemindedness, simply the fact that there are a lot of problems with the practical implementation of these features.
The random skillwheel is a taste of prefenrence (one that I like) but the fact that the one heroes game that had absolutely no randomness in skillchoice was the worst of the series skill-wise.

The flanking is a more problematic thing. Heroes is not like AoW3. It is more chesslike. The whole point of a flanking manouver is to hit the enemy where it hurts while it is engaged against another opponent. So unless flanking only works when it is done by a unit that you haven't attacked last turn, it will cause problems. Higher speed units will always get a flank attack if the units back is unguarded and if it is guarded that means a bad use of another unit.
It is simply a bad design choice if it is implemented so simplemindedly.




And its much better to wait all army and attack with archers till enemy drops? I dont think so.

If you are charging with one creature, it means you take the risk, you hit first but you open yourself to flank. Now this is chesslike. Every action has its results.

Also a good player will probably make use of slow units to close flanks, making them more usefull.

We know that battlefield is not flat-open field anymore, so i doubt that you can really charge your enemy every battle with every same creature line.

Now remember flying units. Imagine enemi flyers can fly above everything and go backs of your lines. this time you should watch his moves all the time and be carefull. another tactical depth.

Calling this "simply a bad design choice" is just wrong.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 05, 2014 12:41 PM
Edited by fuChris at 12:42, 05 Oct 2014.

NoNoNo. How can a mechanic be done well when it excludes all the ranged units as well as the spellcasters? thats atleast the third of the army...

And Dave, sinergies might help but if the game is not properly playable without spells than it is not properly balanced.
Also, reduce the speed of units? Really? Do you really want to have H6 length battles? It will only drag the game on.
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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted October 05, 2014 12:42 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 12:43, 05 Oct 2014.

Galaad said:
Tnat's how it appeared to me in Heroes Online, though I didn't play it much.


No, in HO it's much more complicated (just one word - hexes), though I think in H7 there'll be a simplified version.
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cleglaw
cleglaw


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2014 12:52 PM
Edited by cleglaw at 13:01, 05 Oct 2014.

fuChris said:
NoNoNo. How can a mechanic be done well when it excludes all the ranged units as well as the spellcasters? thats atleast the third of the army...

And Dave, sinergies might help but if the game is not properly playable without spells than it is not properly balanced.
Also, reduce the speed of units? Really? Do you really want to have H6 length battles? It will only drag the game on.


What really make you think this "excludes" them? You are still free to fire at enemy.

Is the unit you want to shoot covered? You have two options:
1-Wait and then shoot twice when it appears but at a cost of time.
2-Or just simply shoot another creature.

In real battles archers shoot before real army goes in-or enemy army tries to flee. This is archers job. They dont do everything and simply annihilate a whole army.

And note that they were still an important part of the armies all time-all around the world in history.

Nothing wrong here.

Despite my love for H3, i always found ranged units over-powered n that game. Archers felt me powerful but it was not good to watch Denroids walk slowly till the end of battle.

This was wrong, im glad they are doing something to make ALL units usefull now. at 7th game yeah, but better late than never.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 05, 2014 12:54 PM

cleglaw said:


And its much better to wait all army and attack with archers till enemy drops? I dont think so.

If you are charging with one creature, it means you take the risk, you hit first but you open yourself to flank. Now this is chesslike. Every action has its results.

Also a good player will probably make use of slow units to close flanks, making them more usefull.

We know that battlefield is not flat-open field anymore, so i doubt that you can really charge your enemy every battle with every same creature line.

Now remember flying units. Imagine enemi flyers can fly above everything and go backs of your lines. this time you should watch his moves all the time and be carefull. another tactical depth.

Calling this "simply a bad design choice" is just wrong.



You are makeing my points for me...

There is no charging mechanic other than being able to attack first. All the risk goes to the attacker, however the defender has the chance to backstab the unit atleast 3 time on their turn...stupid design choice.

If you want to use slow units to guard the flanks then as I said it is a bad use of the unit, either the fast unit loses its edge or the slow unit can not do its role as a rearguard.

We do not know anything of the battlefield yet. But I doubt if there will be only space for 1 unit to pass thru so backstab is easy still.

And flying units? They literally have the option to backstab at every turn... Stupid design choice.
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dark-whisperer
dark-whisperer


Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
posted October 05, 2014 12:54 PM

Its not like there will be open field where everyone will be just flanking each other when its their turn. I guess positioning of the unit and their attack and defense values will play major role as well as speed and initiative. It adds layer of strategy especially if you play against human. I fail to see how flanking can be bad thing.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted October 05, 2014 01:02 PM

fuChris said:

The flanking is a more problematic thing. Heroes is not like AoW3. It is more chesslike. The whole point of a flanking manouver is to hit the enemy where it hurts while it is engaged against another opponent. So unless flanking only works when it is done by a unit that you haven't attacked last turn, it will cause problems. Higher speed units will always get a flank attack if the units back is unguarded and if it is guarded that means a bad use of another unit.
It is simply a bad design choice if it is implemented so simplemindedly.


And if they are flanking, this means that they are exposing themselves to flanking, now that is a bad use of a unit. Being able to flank doesn't mean it is always the right choice, especially because if you are flanking someone on his side of the battlefield, you are turning back to all of his other units and you will probably lose that unit before it even manages to attack for second time.

If back is guarded by unit that is made for defensive use/guarding, than I don't see it as a bad use of that unit.

To me it seems like that you are looking at the whole thing in a vacuum.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 05, 2014 01:04 PM

There is no mechanic for archers to backstab. The whole point of the backstab is to hit a unit while it is unable to defend itself. For a ranged unit that is the basic attack but it does not have the opportunity to do the extra bonus damage ever. It does however suffer the ranged  penalty and the close combat penalty meaning it is penalised more and has no bonus. On the other hand flying units gain all the bonuses with none of the restrictions.
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