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Heroes Community > Turban Tribunal > Thread: Different editing politic for modding threads
Thread: Different editing politic for modding threads This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted November 18, 2014 03:39 AM

Friends, I have asked for this in the past for the WoG forum (and based on this thread I have asked again). Valeriy has been reluctant to make this modification to the board based on some past problems with users nuking their old threads out of spite. But maybe if you make a compelling argument (and I do think it's compelling, if only for the WoG board, because of the need to constantly update threads related to mod development), he may change his mind - provided you are civilized about it.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted November 18, 2014 03:42 AM

Well, isn't this thread, kind of making that argument, what else should we do, send in a basket of fruit also?
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I hope I am mistaking - frostysh

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted November 18, 2014 03:44 AM

Like all mods, Valeriy prefers donuts and soup.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Chewer of Expensive Shoes
posted November 18, 2014 03:51 AM

valeriy, i will offer donuts and soup. what kinds would you like?

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Valeriy
Valeriy

Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
posted November 18, 2014 04:48 AM

This is a valid issue and worth having constructive discussion on. I think it would be great to have the kind of constructiveness we have in the HC icon contest at the moment with a number of members coming up with good ideas and then building on each others' ideas to make them even better.

So, we want to avoid destructive edits, that's why the protection is in place. And we want to have functional old threads that can be updated. Let's brainstorm what the solution could be. And let's keep the "this is stupid" comments to yourself. If you're so smart then propose a balanced and workable solution

What do we need allowed - edits to first post only, or to all posts? in WOG only or everywhere?

What could the safety checks be? QPs will not work, because one of the destructive incidents that took place was done by someone with lots of QPs.

Or if we keep it on moderator-request basis, how could the procedure be made easier?
____________
You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted November 18, 2014 04:56 AM

I think "no edit after 1 year" should be removed from the game sections of the forum (the left column) where there is constant change on files to download (new versions, fixed bugs etc) and it is a good idea on the right column sections where there isn't any need for constant editing on old debates or tavern chat.

Someone going berserk and removing his old game links is a very exceptional situation and if someone is dedicated to kill his links in such a spiteful manner, he can simply do that by removing the source files of his links, anyway. The precaution is not worth the hindrance it causes.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted November 18, 2014 04:56 AM
Edited by Corribus at 04:57, 18 Nov 2014.

What if we allow users to edit old posts, but the edits only go into effect once approved by moderators?

So, let's say I have an old post I want to modify. I go through and make the modifications, then submit. However instead of updating automatically, it goes to a moderator for approval. Once moderator approves, the thread is updated.

This way the user gets to edit the thread exactly as he pleases, and as often as he wants, and we are protected from damage by the moderator verification. This is contingent upon moderator being available and active, but I think there are no forums unmoderated at the moment. The process could be automated, so the moderator gets an automatic HCM when he has a post edit awaiting approval.

The only forum where this seems to be an issue currently is WoG forum, and for understandable reasons.  The mods are continually in progress, and threads need to be updated to keep users abreast of changes.

(Alternatively, we could just designate forums or specific threads where this procedure, or any thread editing, is applicable. Moderators could be in charge of identifying such threads and flagging them as such. All other threads would have the usual restrictions.)
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Chewer of Expensive Shoes
posted November 18, 2014 05:11 AM
Edited by fred79 at 05:18, 18 Nov 2014.

Valeriy said:
And let's keep the "this is stupid" comments to yourself. If you're so smart then propose a balanced and workable solution


i suppose you're referring to me; though i used the word "ridiculous". i liken making posts uneditable after a year due to one person screwing something up, to having all the stringent(and frankly, dumb) security measures in place before getting onto an aircraft via an airport, merely because a couple of people did something bad years ago. so that's the reason why i used the word "ridiculous". i understand you want to keep the valuable information safe, but there has to be some lee-way.

i wasn't here for what happened in HC to cause the security measure; so i can only go on hearsay. maybe if i was around back then, i could have come up with a better idea.

but you're right. something should change, and for the better. i have zero knowledge of coding, so i can't help there. but i already suggested allowing the initial poster who created the post that needs to be accessed, to be able to have rights to it, to edit it themselves. strict access for that poster only, i think, will alleviate any potential issues. and if they violate that trust due to any personal issues with users/mods/you, then, to ban them outright(after a mod-squad discussion, of course; with you involved personally). the threat of a perma-ban from abuse of the new feature would greatly discourage any ill-will, i think.

i think that would solve both issues. i have yet to read the posts below yours, though. so maybe someone else has a better idea in mind.


@ cor: i don't see how your suggestion is really any different from what we have now. the updating could(and most likely, will) be constant; would you really want to keep "okaying" updates, that could be coming daily?

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted November 18, 2014 05:29 AM

Okaying qualifying updates would certainly be more convenient for me (and for the person who wants to do the updating) than what I have to do now. It would be more efficient and eliminate errors.

The post editing restrictions here are far less severe than at some other forums I frequent. I do think some restriction should exist, but there are a handful of threads related to ongoing project where it makes sense to give users some capability of updating their threads. The verification system I proposed would allow for this but also would provide a failsafe to prevent destructive editing that we've had to deal with in the past.

Other things we've considered in the past is allowing users a maximum of one old-post-edit per some amount of time (like 1 per week). This could also work and should be open for consideration.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Chewer of Expensive Shoes
posted November 18, 2014 05:34 AM

Corribus said:
allowing users a maximum of one old-post-edit per some amount of time (like 1 per week). This could also work and should be open for consideration.


this is a good idea, as well.

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Orzie
Orzie


Promising
Supreme Hero
Reinventing the Steel
posted November 18, 2014 05:59 AM
Edited by Orzie at 06:09, 18 Nov 2014.

Why 1 per week? What if I forgot something or made a grammar mistake? Or what if I've got a large stream of fast updates?

I don't see a reason to put ANY limitations on the editing of the first post in the WoG subforum (don't care about other ones, but perhaps some modding/whatever projects from other subforums also deserve this). If you are afraid of discipline, just look at the actual people who maintain their threads and really need the feature. There are no newbies or trolls coming from elsewhere. There are only the modders who are enthusiast enough to maintain their projects more than a year. This should not experience any limitations, but should be supported instead.

And with time the number of such modders is irreversibly decreasing.

With the first post being editable whenever I want I will get an opportunity to promote the HC thread as the official english language thread of the project on Heroes Community. Currently I don't even mention the HC thread in the promo, because it's incapable of showing the project's progress without dozens of hours lurking on its pages. This is very painful. HC will only win of the new users coming.



More than that, I concern also my Heroes 2 Museum thread in the Library which might be also updated a year or two, or even five after its creation. It will lose its academic value with the limitation (I actually didn't know about the limitation itself). I also planned to create such academic thread for Heroes 1, and now I realize that with the current conditions I will have to search the whole Internet in a year to provide the thread with the 200% comprehensive info. This is barely possible.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted November 18, 2014 06:12 AM
Edited by artu at 06:13, 18 Nov 2014.

The most practical idea so far is moderator approved edit.  Editing whole pages is something else, yet clicking a few (or let's assume 30 times a day) okay buttons shouldnt be a problem for someone who volunteers for the job and gets all the perks.

I still say this would be better for the whole gaming section at least though, who knows what tools will future bring other than Wog and H3 mods and its not just mods, old dead links, outdated info etc can be cleaned up this way. It is impossible for one moderator to be knowledgable and efficient in cleaning up all the info traffic on game related links, yet thread starters and fans of specific mods can each handle related threads in time, one by one. All the moderator will do is take a quick look at the finished version and click ok button.
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I hope I am mistaking - frostysh

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Orzie
Orzie


Promising
Supreme Hero
Reinventing the Steel
posted November 18, 2014 06:29 AM

Not even mentioning the QP spread which don't accumulate because of the constant thread re-creating. Not that QP mean something important, but it's looking more presentative this way.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted November 18, 2014 09:34 AM

Usually, the posts that are of concern are posts with a QP assigned to them. So how about this system:

- Everyone can edit their own posts indefinately;
- Posts older than an x-amount of time (could be a year, could be half a year, whatever) which have been assigned a QP require moderator approval before the edit is posted to the forum for real;

This stops griefing by a disgruntled member who want to nuke the quality posts he made, while also preventing a flood of edit approval requests to the mods.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted November 18, 2014 09:35 AM

Umm, why is this so hard? There are tens of good quality gaming forums out (civilization the most notable) where there is no problem in editing. In fact, except Xarfax stroke, there was NEVER any problem: on a regular basis, the people making good posts are responsible (me for example, when got angry, deleted my password, not posts, that was Corribus's task to delete them ).

Please remove that rule and do not invent another work around issue, contact moderator, beg for right, once per week, once per month or whatever. People in wog forum are spending enough time and energy to create functional things, don't make their work even harder by excessive rules. Which is what happens now, because one's stupid act.

And if something bad happens again, let the moderators deal with it on a local base, don't penalize everyone.




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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted November 18, 2014 11:40 AM

Is it possible to restore a "bad" edit, e.g. an edit which removes all content?

If it is, then I was considering if it could work that:
1) All OP of WoG threads with a QP have unlimited edit.
2) Every time such a post is edited, a moderator who's posted recently gets a HCM with a notification.
3) If the moderator hasn't opened the HCM within a certain time frame, a new HCM is send to another active moderator.

I imagine if it's difficult to restore content, an alternative approach could be to send the new and the original content of the post in question to the moderator.

The idea is that while editing is free, if something destructive happens it can be recovered, and if it's on purpose, perhaps the free-editing of the given post can be removed.

The main problems I see are thus:
a) A person edits his post a lot, leaving a lot of automated HCM's clutter to deal with. - A possible solution is that the HCM's are not send to the moderator before someone notices there's an issue. However this may create another problem of a lot of unused data being stored.
b) Lack of HCM storage capacity. - One solution could be to use e-mails in stead, but I think that has caused trouble in the past.
c) A moderator who misunderstands / don't care / or even has something against the material or poster in question on a more personal level. - It's very difficult to say how to solve something like this, but fortunately it's not something I've seen.
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Living time backwards

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted November 18, 2014 01:50 PM

Thank you Valeriy for the will to discuss this problem and thank you for the link to Heroes of Might and Magic; it provide me with an example I wanted: I also don't want someone who expressed opinions in favour of invading Iraq in 2002 or 2003 to delete them and claim he has never said that in the first place.
But I think it is a false issue that this policy helps to preserve our history. I would compare the actual situation to go to a library to research for the classical period and find out that all the documentation is mashed in a shelf, just ordered in alphabetical order and mixed with a few books from others periods and a lot of misleading pieces like the "Julius Caeser" from Shakespeare and Vanity Fair inquires about "Who was the sexyest emperor in Roman hitory?" or "What greek tiran do you resemble the most?". This doesn't help to preserve history, it burrys it under piles of junk.
So what I propuse is:
1. Leave the rule has it is in the opinion threads (tavern, other side and so on);
2. completely remove it from the modders threads (yes WoG but there are people building mods for H5 too and at least a thread about a map for H6);
3. at least try to create some more deeper levels of indexation, so that "ERM Help and Dicussion" and "60 mods for Era" don't happen to be in the same page of "What is your favorite H3 creature?" and "Why are there so many bad skill specialists?" or something of the kind;
4. really assume most of what people post will be considered (for themselves) junk after a while and be ready to archive (delete) much more then what is being done today (at least in game threads);
5. assume a serious compromise with preserving, organizing and updating educative and informative content, specially in the areas where development is still being done (WoG ).

I think the origin of this rule may or may not have been an overreaction to a specific episode but his enforcement is something that creeps the operation of the site.

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Valeriy
Valeriy

Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
posted November 18, 2014 08:05 PM

The editing restrictions were put in place for a good reason and won't be removed completely. In case you are not aware, copies of deleted or edited posts are not kept, so there is no viable way to restore anything.

Removing editing restrictions from Heroes category boards is not a viable solution as this is where the problems happened in the past. As I already mentioned the focus should be on finding a balanced solution. Some of you are still whining and ranting. We've already established there is a problem. Let's get constructive.

My comments on interesting ideas that were brought up:

Moderator approval of edit - a good idea in theory, but such functionality is not there, and right now I'm not willing to put in the significant coding time required for this. I'd like a balanced solution that is relatively easy to implement.

Flagging threads to be exempt from editing restrictions - interesting idea, would require extra coding but this is a bit easier. Maybe this could be done using the thread rating system - perhaps we could add a new rating (maybe "project") that only moderators can assign. Threads with that rating can only be re-rated by moderators and their first post can have unlimited edits by the author.

Making our two modding forums exempt from editing restrictions - possible, and easiest, but we're giving up the protection here. This option is probably a bit better than the problem we have now, but ideally I'd like to see a more balanced solution.

One old post edit per week - should really be old 1 thread edit per week as it may be hard to get all the changes right in a single editing operation. Specifically, it could be unlimited edits of the first post of one old thread per week. Before another old thread can be edited by this user, one week would need to pass since the last edit of the first old thread. This is probably not too hard to code and gives a balance of functionality and protection. Sure, a user can nuke one thread, but they won't be able to go on a thread nuking rampage.

Automatically sending the original content of the post to a moderator (ex: via HCM) when an old thread is edited - interesting idea, not too difficult. But this will have to occur on every single old post edit, even same post & same person. Question is - how many of these would a moderator receive per day? I'm asking this as a question. If not too many this would be a workable solution.
____________
You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 18, 2014 08:08 PM

You need to expand the HCM 10kB limit if you wish to implement that last one.
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted November 18, 2014 08:17 PM

Quote:
Automatically sending the original content of the post to a moderator (ex: via HCM) when an old thread is edited - interesting idea, not too difficult. But this will have to occur on every single old post edit, even same post & same person. Question is - how many of these would a moderator receive per day? I'm asking this as a question. If not too many this would be a workable solution.


Why not put the moderator to quote reply the thread before giving the QP? No coding required, it may cause unnecessary spamming in some cases, especially if the post is long. Another option would be require the moderator to copy-paste the quality posts into a separate thread, which would also help keep track of awarded QPs.

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