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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: The lore thread
Thread: The lore thread This thread is 44 pages long: 1 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 ... 30 40 44 · «PREV / NEXT»
verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted June 09, 2015 10:35 PM

Sandro400 said:
Old Sandro had some backstory as well, IIRC it was explained in first 1-2 maps of Sandro's campaign (in which he fights his former "teacher" Etric and "friend", Jeddite). But nothing like "when and where he was born".


even that backstory is also extremely questionable though lol
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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted June 09, 2015 10:48 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 30 Aug 2015.
Edited by Avonu at 22:53, 09 Jun 2015.

Sandro400 said:
Though I think that the date of Ashan Sandro's birth came out as a result of some math, I don't remember the date "544th YSD" to be said explicitly.

It wasn't... but AFAIK it is his birth date.

As from Sandro from NWC Universe:

We met Sandro first on Darkside of Xeen (in MM5) in city named... Necropolis , when he is a lich and introduce himself as "the greatest sorcerer of Xeen" (talk about being megalomaniac ). He was tired of being undead and wants to be free at last - dead. To do that, he needs his heart back. Last time when we see him, he is heading with his heart somewhere to die. He also leaves behind a key to his former home - Dungeon of Death.

(there is some more backstory about why he wants to die but I don't have any details right now).


On Enroth Sandro is one of Lord Alamar warlocks (and a lich) and after his lord defeat and escape, he goes to study some arts with Ethric the Mad - "the first Lich on Enroth" (no info about when it has happened but his H3 bio says this).

During Succession Wars he serve under Archibald Ironfist's orders as a part of Necromacer's Guild. After his commander is turned in stone, Sandro sails to Antagarich.

In Nighon he meets a warlock named Ethric and his apprentice Jeddite. Sandro uses illusion to look like a human and study for some time with Ethric.

He found words about two powerful artifacts and use Gem and Crag Hack as pawns to get these items. He presents himself as a wizard apprentice from Bracada.

When he got artifacts, he fights his way to Deyja, defeating and killing his former "master" Ethric (from Nighon, not Ethric the Mad), using fallen mage Vidomina as ally and meeting with Fineas Vilmar, which in time becomes his "puppet".

He put Vilmar on the Deyjan throne and soon hatched a plan to conquer all Antagarich. He is stopped by Gelu, Gem, Crag Hack and Yog and both artifacts are destroyed.

Sandro hatched another plan - he help Lord Haart poison Erathian king Nicholas Gryphonheart and use the Kreegan and Nighon Overlords to invade Erathia. However he is double-crossed by Fineas Vilmar and put in jail.

When Vilmar animate dead Nicholas Gryphonheart as a Lich King, he is killed, as Sandro promised. Sandro is freed from prison during Restoration of Erathia war and could even become new Deyja ruler after the conflict has ended... but unfortunately for him, Archibald Ironfist was freed from stone and not only sailed to Antagarich but also become new king of Deyja. Sandro toghether with vampire Thant choose safer path and sailed to Jadame, where soon they become co-rulers of Jademian Necromancers Guild.

Sandro survived Reckoning and ended at Axeoth but he lost his allies and resources. He started to rebuild his power base but in meantime Gauldoth Half-Dead founded neromancy kingdom Nekross, so there was little for Sandro to do but hide in shadows... for now at least.



One thing - Ethric from H3:SoD was supposed to be Ethric the Mad from MM6 buuuuuuut their characters, bios and events makes them two different persons at the end.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted June 09, 2015 10:53 PM

Avonu said:
In Nighon he meets a warlock named Ethric and his apprentice Jeddite. Sandro uses illusion to look like a human and study for some time with Ethric.


you are making up this part lol
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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted June 09, 2015 10:56 PM

verriker said:
you are making up this part lol


I do not remember where exactly they have met, but everything else Avonu said is true. Sandro used an illusion and spent some time with Ethric. It's just that Ethric thought all the while that he really was his master, while in truth Sandro has been a lich for a long time. And he was "friends" with Jeddite as well.

I do not remember when I said this last time, but: hey, QP Avonu already!
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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted June 09, 2015 11:00 PM
Edited by Avonu at 23:04, 09 Jun 2015.

sir lol-a-lot said:
you are making up this part lol

What I said you about Shadow of Death campaign?

IIRC Ethric in SoD chased Sandro because of practicing Necromancy - something which Ethric the Mad also practiced.
In HoMM1-2 Sandro was a lich already, while Ethric the Mad supposed to be "first lich on Enroth" - and we had liches in HoMM2 already. Ethric in SoD is a human (he has Ajit portair ).
Besides look at Sandro portair in first missions - he don't have his skeletal face but is hooded figure.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted June 09, 2015 11:06 PM

Sandro400 said:
I do not remember where exactly they have met, but everything else Avonu said is true. Sandro used an illusion and spent some time with Ethric. It's just that Ethric thought all the while that he really was his master, while in truth Sandro has been a lich for a long time. And he was "friends" with Jeddite as well.


nope,

nothing says he was using an illusion, or pretending to be a student (lol), he acknowledges he was the Warlock Ethric's student, nothing says he or Jeddite were trained in Nighon, and nothing says Sandro was a Lich when he trained with Ethric (the opposite is repeatedly suggested),
Ethric claims he originally trained Sandro decades before H3 (aka in the H1 era), and no distinction is ever made between one Ethric or the other, Sandro's monologues and nightmares only reference one Ethric

basically what actually happened is the storywriters of SoD didn't research the character of Ethric the Mad, screwed up his backstory, and so you end up with two possible and contradictory origin stories for Sandro as a result lol

so I'm just pointing out he's inventing his own fan fiction lore to cover this plothole lol
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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted June 09, 2015 11:20 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 23:23, 09 Jun 2015.

As I said, I won't argue whether they met in Nighon or elsewhere, but for the illusion part I'm pretty much sure - Sandro's face in the first campaign is not skeletal.
As for Ethric - I'm sure Sandro said that he was just using Ethric to his advantage. Need to replay the map it seems.

I'll leave you to Avonu then, he will come up with better arguments (it's my understanding that he keeps his own little databank. ^_^)
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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted June 09, 2015 11:58 PM

Is there any detailed source material or fanfiction regarding what the Nighon and/or Enroth Warlock societies were like? I'm especially interested in stuff regarding their cultural customs, race relations, religion etc.

Also, I'd like to know what (if any) societies existed on the Nighon surface, and what their relations to the overlords below was like?

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted June 09, 2015 11:59 PM

Sandro400 said:
As I said, I won't argue whether they met in Nighon or elsewhere, but for the illusion part I'm pretty much sure - Sandro's face in the first campaign is not skeletal.
As for Ethric - I'm sure Sandro said that he was just using Ethric to his advantage. Need to replay the map it seems.

I'll leave you to Avonu then, he will come up with better arguments (it's my understanding that he keeps his own little databank. ^_^)


nope, no illusions against Ethric is ever mentioned or even suggested anywhere, and as for using him to his advantage, Sandro says it himself that Jeddite and Ethric originally introduced him to magic so obviously he wasn't a Lich or even a spellcaster at the time, basically think again lol

read some of the texts for yourself if you don't believe me lol

Quote:
It seems Ethric, my old master, has finally tracked me down.  He hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer and wants to remove the blight from his career.  Ethric is no fool.  He spread word of my location to those who would stop me.  It does not matter.  I will defeat these fools, soundly beat my master and continue on to Deyja, where they will appreciate my talents.


Quote:
You have just received a threatening letter from the Barbarians due west.  It reads:

"Sandro,

My name is Jeddite.  Perhaps you remember me, if your memories are not clouded by your undead mind.  We were students together under Ethric.  By becoming Necromancer, you have completely shamed me, for it was I who introduced you to Ethric.  I should have listened to him.  From the start, he doubted your ability to wisely endure the burden of magical knowledge.

Ethric told me of the two artifacts now in your possession.  Know this, Sandro: you will not get past me on your journey to Deyja.  I have allied with the Rampart town up north, and they stand with me against you.  I will take the artifacts from your rotting corpse and return them to Ethric."

You do remember this Jeddite.  Not only was he one of Ethric's best students, he was also your best friend.  So, he feels guilty for introducing you to Ethric.  You will have to find a way use this weakness against him.


Quote:
Your advisors remind you it has been almost a week since you received that threatening letter from your old friend.  They suggest you reply to it soon if you are to use your friendship to your advantage.  You order for a messenger.

"Deliver this message to Jeddite: I have received your letter of warning.  Am I suppose run and hide, fearful of your vow to stop me?  No, your threat only strengthens my resolve.  I will take these artifacts to Deyja, where I shall use them rise to the top of the Deyja hierarchy.  You and your pitiful little band cannot stop me.  If you stand in my way, I will kill every living soul under your command and convert their undead bodies to my cause.  By the way, thank you for introducing me to the powers of magic.  Without your help, I would never have achieved such greatness."

The messenger quickly writes your message onto a scroll and goes on his way.  You wonder to yourself if the message was perhaps a little too confident.  But, hopefully, giving him a glimpse of the monster he helped to create will shatter his own confidence.


Quote:
I received a message from Ethric today.  Ethric said it had been decades Sandro was his apprentice.  He said Sandro ran away and become a Necromancer!  There were more ill tidings.  Ethric said Sandro might be trying to construct a powerful artifact from all the artifacts I gathered for him.  I was so furious, I screamed.  None of my troops came near me for an hour.  I must pass these tidings on to Gelu and the Council of Elders.


not saying the fiction Avanu made up isn't a somewhat fair attempt to reconcile this impossible mess, it's just not canon info to the story at all lol
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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted June 10, 2015 12:13 AM

The fact that there is so much uncertainty warms my icy heart. interesting stuff for this very reason
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lokdron
lokdron


Famous Hero
posted June 10, 2015 02:54 AM
Edited by lokdron at 02:58, 10 Jun 2015.

Avonu said:
snip


Am I the only one who went blood with Vein? I loved having Ludmilla around while Zekera was QQ at me about how I am murdering people... saying that Anastasya would never do that.

Then I thought to myself whaaa? My one was blood she would totally do that!

Then Zekara turns around to say to enslave the Haven heroes for blood..

She should really make up her mind.

Almost everyone I know went blood with the necropolis heroes plus it does not help that the blood classes for them are better than tears. Plus the added bonus you get more info on Sandro as blood while tears you get info on who Zekera is.

Still I voted for sandro want more information on these events that occurred.  

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted June 10, 2015 04:24 AM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 04:26, 10 Jun 2015.

For your contributions to the thread, Avonu, you have been awarded a QP.  Keep up the good work.
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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted June 10, 2015 09:06 AM

verriker said:

nope, no illusions against Ethric is ever mentioned or even suggested anywhere, and as for using him to his advantage, Sandro says it himself that Jeddite and Ethric originally introduced him to magic so obviously he wasn't a Lich or even a spellcaster at the time, basically think again lol


I'm feeling like fighting a wall here. In H1-2, Sandro already was a Lich. In the Shadow of Death, he looks like human for the first part - look at his model in Crag's campaign intro! It leaves us with some sort of illusion.

As for the text - can you give me a link for all of them? ^_^ I would be very grateful for it.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted June 10, 2015 09:53 AM

Avonu said:
In 563 YSD he and Gazal from House of Anima stole an ancient Shantiri artifact - Throne of Reneval - usuing Crag Hack as a pawn to loot it from Inquisition's ship.
After "some" disagrement Sandro cursed Crag Hack with a Void curse, Unfortunately Gazal tricks Sandro, sit on throne and become Herald of the Void (she was defeated by Vein and Windswords eventually).

1 year after Second Eclipse Sandro returned to Bull Duchy 60 years after his banishment from Spider Cult and trick his relative - Lucretia - to become undead vampire and his appreentice. He also made a revange at Merikh and turned him into ghoul.
He found Faceless' artifact - Mask of False Face - and used it in year 660 YSD to change his look and poison Mother Namtaru with Void curse, which made all who drunk her venom dying. He was stopped by Vein, Belketh and Zakera and Mother Namtaru was healed.

Actually, DoC takes place in 570 YSD, 5 years after Danse Macabre and 6 years after the Second Eclipse.

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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted June 10, 2015 10:30 AM
Edited by Avonu at 10:58, 10 Jun 2015.

Sligneris said:
Actually, DoC takes place in 570 YSD, 5 years after Danse Macabre and 6 years after the Second Eclipse.


Indeed but the Throne was dug up and captured by Crag Hack earlier (IIRC this supposed to be during or aftermatch of cancelled Raiders game). In DoC Gazal is a Herald from some time.


verriker said:
not saying the fiction Avanu made up isn't a somewhat fair attempt to reconcile this impossible mess, it's just not canon info to the story at all lol

Considering that much of Sandro backstory in SoD is a mess and contradiction to lore we know from previous games (including Heroes 3) there is no way to say that all SoD/HC/Heores 4 and MM9 stories are fully canon themselves.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted June 10, 2015 04:26 PM

Sandro400 said:
I'm feeling like fighting a wall here. In H1-2, Sandro already was a Lich. In the Shadow of Death, he looks like human for the first part - look at his model in Crag's campaign intro! It leaves us with some sort of illusion.

As for the text - can you give me a link for all of them? ^_^ I would be very grateful for it.


OK well you're talking past me, maybe I should make things really clear,
yes I know, accept and fully agree that Sandro used magic to make himself look human in SoD, the only part I am saying is wrong is that he used this magic between H2 and H3 to trick Jeddite and Ethric into believing he was an apprentice, this is a fan fiction and does not make sense in canon lore lol

Quote:
You are greeted with sharpened sticks pointed directly at your face.  A stout dwarf passes between his tribesmen and approaches.  "Who goes there?" he demands.  Before he can see your face, an illusion covers your bones with flesh.


the idea that he sometimes used magic to take on a human guise is a fact, it's not in dispute, you're not fighting walls but rather windmills here lol

Avonu said:
Considering that much of Sandro backstory in SoD is a mess and contradiction to lore we know from previous games (including Heroes 3) there is no way to say that all SoD/HC/Heores 4 and MM9 stories are fully canon themselves.


lol there are a lot of subtle but significant retcons in the history of Enroth, Sandro's story is just one, but even though they are mostly "blink and you miss them" problems you still cannot remedy the lore, lots of it was muddled around between games, lol

for example H3 says we have Edric's great grandfather being the first to domesticate a griffin for King Gryphonheart I, but Heroes Chronicles and H4 say King Gryphonheart I was around 1000 years ago with Tarnum, so that's out the window unless the great grandfather was a 900 year old immortal lol

H3 also claims Josephine was the first person to animate a golem, but in later stories we have golems in the army of Bracaduun and Bracada centuries ago and even a character with the rank of golem master in Master of the Elements, Ponific I think he was called lol

if Tarnum and Erathia are 1000 years old, it means Jarg was fighting Bracaduun and the Wizard Kings before the Silence, all taking place around the time of the Colonial Government and the Forges, but I didn't see or hear anything about no Government or Forges in that story, not even ruins exist lol

MM6 has people saying Ethric the Mad who recently died was the first lich and first necromancer in the world of Enroth, but that is retconned straight away in Heroes 3 which says Deyja has been populated by necromancers for about a millennium, and many of the later games constantly contradict it too lol

the world geography seems to change, in H3 and MM6 it is said Regna is not far to the east of Enroth, but in MM8 with Regna they refer to Enroth as a land across the eastern sea, so it's either retconned to the west of Enroth or they somehow prefer to circumnavigate the globe than go west lol

in MM8 the plot hinges on the idea that the Kreegans were extinct from the world when the Ironfists left Antagarich, yet Mutare is leading huge armies of the Kreegans in a massive invasion of AvLee in Clash of the Dragons, and the Ironfists are nowhere to be seen lol

H1 says Morglin Ironfist is an alien from beyond who came to Enroth and started the Ironfist Dynasty, his only children were Roland and Archibald, but MM8 says somebody called Jerico Ironfist won the First Enrothian Succession War and even has an NPC named Sethine Ironfist who is not in the family tree lol

if you get obsessive enough you'll see that there is no such thing as fully canon, trying to mend plotholes like you did is a waste of time, there are mistakes and contradictions and all anyone can do half the time is pick whatever interpretation you think is best lol
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted June 10, 2015 04:44 PM
Edited by LizardWarrior at 16:47, 10 Jun 2015.

Blah, you all forget to talk about the most frightening aspect of Sandro's lore

Quote:

This place looks familiar. You have a hazy memory of bringing a beautiful maiden here several years back, and... your thoughts are interrupted when one of your spies approaches. "Sir, Lord Jabarkas knows you are in the area and is planning to kill you. He has not forgotten you kidnapping his daughter and violating her. He has recruited a large army from another Stronghold in the northeast and plans to attack you shortly."



No, not talking about that Sandro raped a woman, but I'm talking about Sandro's idea of "beautiful maiden" being whatever creature was born from the seed of this... um... thing:



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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted June 10, 2015 05:17 PM

Whats so weird? The only strange thing about Jabarkas is green skin. Besides, you like what you like.
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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted June 10, 2015 05:33 PM
Edited by Avonu at 18:24, 10 Jun 2015.

LizardWarrior said:
I'm talking about Sandro's idea of "beautiful maiden" being whatever creature was born from the seed of this... um... thing:










lol-a-lot said:
yes I know, accept and fully agree that Sandro used magic to make himself look human in SoD, the only part I am saying is wrong is that he used this magic between H2 and H3 to trick Jeddite and Ethric into believing he was an apprentice, this is a fan fiction and does not make sense in canon lore

Sorry to dispel your illusion but Enroth is not Ashan, where everyone and his dog has biography behind him to support.
On Enroth you sometimes need to use your brain to add 2 to 2 to have whole picture and not only based on texts from one source.
And you didn't see fanfiction yet.


Now to clear some of your doubts:

lol-a-lot said:
for example H3 says we have Edric's great grandfather being the first to domesticate a griffin for King Gryphonheart I, but Heroes Chronicles and H4 say King Gryphonheart I was around 1000 years ago with Tarnum, so that's out the window unless the great grandfather was a 900 year old immortal lol

Yes, he domesticate a wild griffin... but is this mean we didn't have griffins in Erathian army before?
Mind you, on Enroth Griffins were in Warlock castle and as much of their creatures Griffin probably also was a Warlock creation.
On Antagarich we also have Warlocks - in Nighon - who also created much of their army themselves and some neutral beings. So why not Griffins then?


lol-a-lot said:
H3 also claims Josephine was the first person to animate a golem, but in later stories we have golems in the army of Bracaduun and Bracada centuries ago and even a character with the rank of golem master in Master of the Elements, Ponific I think he was called lol

She was a first person to animate a stone golem. And that's all - no info about there weren't golems in Tower army before her.

lol-a-lot said:
if Tarnum and Erathia are 1000 years old, it means Jarg was fighting Bracaduun and the Wizard Kings before the Silence, all taking place around the time of the Colonial Government and the Forges, but I didn't see or hear anything about no Government or Forges in that story, not even ruins exist lol

You really need to learn a math.
1200 - 1000 = 200 after Silence. Jarg conquered Bracaduun some time before Tarnum birth but mind you, one generation is about 25-30 years and it's easy to forget about past in 1-2 generations, especially when your opressors are doing everything to erase that past (shooting bards in back ).

lol-a-lot said:
MM6 has people saying Ethric the Mad who recently died was the first lich and first necromancer in the world of Enroth, but that is retconned straight away in Heroes 3 which says Deyja has been populated by necromancers for about a millennium, and many of the later games constantly contradict it too

You forgot about that necromacer =/= lich.
Second, necromancers on Antagarich used Soul Jars to become liches when on Enroth liches used Ritual of the Endless Night. And Ethric the Mad was "the first lich" but on Enroth not on all the world.
Third, on Enroth experiments with Dark Magic were being done at least since 428 AS (+/-), when Brotherhood created dagger Mordred. Probably even earlier.

lol-a-lot said:
the world geography seems to change, in H3 and MM6 it is said Regna is not far to the east of Enroth, but in MM8 with Regna they refer to Enroth as a land across the eastern sea, so it's either retconned to the west of Enroth or they somehow prefer to circumnavigate the globe than go west

Regna is on the East of Enroth and on the West of Antagarich - Jadame is between these two continents.
"Sea" on the east of Enroth is named Endless Ocean and it also lies on northern shore of Antagarich, while Regna is a center of "Empire of Endless Sea" (read: Regnan teritory).
I don't remember exactly text from MM8 but did it say "Eastern sea f Jadame" or just "Eastern sea"?

lol-a-lot said:
in MM8 the plot hinges on the idea that the Kreegans were extinct from the world when the Ironfists left Antagarich, yet Mutare is leading huge armies of the Kreegans in a massive invasion of AvLee in Clash of the Dragons, and the Ironfists are nowhere to be seen

I don't remember "huge armies" but yes, there are some Kreegans in Clash of Dragons. However end of Armageddon's Blade state that some of them escaped and hide. Catherine's armies "scoured Eeofol searching for any sign of Kreegan continued existence" and didn't found any. That's all.


lol-a-lot said:
H1 says Morglin Ironfist is an alien from beyond who came to Enroth and started the Ironfist Dynasty, his only children were Roland and Archibald, but MM8 says somebody called Jerico Ironfist won the First Enrothian Succession War and even has an NPC named Sethine Ironfist who is not in the family tree

First, Ironfist is a nickname (he reign with iron fist after all) - same as Richard Lionheart. So why some Sethine from Bracada Desert shouldn't have a nickname?
Second, yeah that's right about Morglin but you forgot that many persons have a middle name - so why not in this case?
Same with named A Strategic Quest as "First Succession War" - Morglin Ironfist won fight after Enrothian throne after all.


lol-a-lot said:
if you get obsessive enough you'll see that there is no such thing as fully canon, trying to mend plotholes like you did is a waste of time, there are mistakes and contradictions and all anyone can do half the time is pick whatever interpretation you think is best

There isn't? Then I guess I have missed Ashan, when you have one and only canon. Not to mention another franchises.



Yes, there are even more plot holes (especially in H3:SoD, HC and HoMM4) but overall you can write a complex recap of events and heroes stories. Some minor details are missing or told in different ways in two games but you can always find an explanation.
If you really want to stick only to texts without using common sense, then you are like Belketh, founder of the Spider Cult, who thought he know everything after he found one, incomplete text about of Asha.
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verriker
verriker


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We don't need another 'eroes
posted June 10, 2015 08:12 PM

Avenue said:
Sorry to dispel your illusion but Enroth is not Ashan, where everyone and his dog has biography behind him to support.
On Enroth you sometimes need to use your brain to add 2 to 2 to have whole picture and not only based on texts from one source.
And you didn't see fanfiction yet.


or instead you can just present the discrepancies in the lore as they are, coming from different writers, there is no need to paper over them,
rather than using your brain I think a real scholar would say it can even be a bit shady and disingenuous to do that lol

Avenue said:
Yes, he domesticate a wild griffin... but is this mean we didn't have griffins in Erathian army before?
Mind you, on Enroth Griffins were in Warlock castle and as much of their creatures Griffin probably also was a Warlock creation.
On Antagarich we also have Warlocks - in Nighon - who also created much of their army themselves and some neutral beings. So why not Griffins then?


not sure what you are talking about, but in Heroes 3 they write that King Gryphonheart I's armies tamed the Griffins and trained them for war, they also say Edric's grandfather was the first man to do this, which creates a confusion when they retcon King Gryphonheart to be from 1000 years ago lol

are you trying to say the griffins Rion Gryphonheart tamed to create Erathia were not wild, but instead artificial Griffins made by Warlocks 1000 years ago? lmao I'd rather just have the small plothole with Edric than make up that lol

also it's never said that the Warlocks created the Griffins lol, they created minotaurs, evil eyes and the other Agar freaks, and hydras, nothing else IIRC lol

Avenue said:
She was a first person to animate a stone golem. And that's all - no info about there weren't golems in Tower army before her.


maybe I need to break this down nice and clear, Josephine is from the Restoration Wars, you have animated stone golems all over the place in the Heroes Chronicles which are set centuries before the Restoration Wars, and they did not animate themselves lol (Tarnum even trolls Ponific asking if he can make them breathe as a joke lol)

you see, she cannot really be the first person to animate stone golems if other people animated them hundreds of years before she was born, hope that makes sense lol

Avenue said:
You really need to learn a math.
1200 - 1000 = 200 after Silence. Jarg conquered Bracaduun some time before Tarnum birth but mind you, one generation is about 25-30 years and it's easy to forget about past in 1-2 generations, especially when your opressors are doing everything to erase that past (shooting bards in back ).


you need to learn a timeline, Heroes 4 is around the late 1170s and early 1180s, not 1200 as you say, that would put Waerjak in his forties lol
there are many hints that Jarg is an ancient figure, he "lived so long ago", predated Bracaduun itself and ruled Antagarich from east to west "well into his old age", you don't burn Ashan in flames in a day, Tarnum asks what about all the other generations of kings who should have filled the gap between Jarg and him, even Hardac's grandfather spoke of Jarg as if he is a mythic hero of the past, and Jarg has descendants who settled near Bracaduun and created a culture "long ago"

it is even said that Tarnum lived *more* than 1000 years, so even if you concede Jarg lived only about 100 years before him and not like 300 or more, that still puts him in the first century AS at the very latest which is when Padish was still fighting the rebels with blasters lol

it's amusing that they don't have Forges and sci-fi incorporated in that lore of the Chronicles when those things are supposed to be common at the time lol

Avenue said:
You forgot about that necromacer =/= lich.
Second, necromancers on Antagarich used Soul Jars to become liches when on Enroth liches used Ritual of the Endless Night. And Ethric the Mad was "the first lich" but on Enroth not on all the world.


you forgot about that quote in MM6, the folklore from the NPCs goes that "Ethric the Mad was the first sorcerer to discover and perform the Ritual of the Endless Night, simultaneously becoming the world's first lich and necromancer" lol

it is only a fable and not a fact, but when you have an entire kingdom of necromancers in the world for 1000 years it suggests the NPC who thinks Ethric came first is an idiot lol

another NPC also confirms Ethric is the first lich lol

Avenue said:
Regna is on the East of Enroth and on the West of Antagarich - Jadame is between these two continents.
"Sea" on the east of Enroth is named Endless Ocean and it also lies on northern shore of Antagarich, while Regna is a center of "Empire of Endless Sea" (read: Regnan teritory).
I don't remember exactly text from MM8 but did it say "Eastern sea f Jadame" or just "Eastern sea"?


actually, Jadame could be closer to the west lol, because the quote says the Ironfists rule "the lands over the eastern sea" lol

Avenue said:
I don't remember "huge armies" but yes, there are some Kreegans in Clash of Dragons. However end of Armageddon's Blade state that some of them escaped and hide. Catherine's armies "scoured Eeofol searching for any sign of Kreegan continued existence" and didn't found any. That's all.


maybe "the ancient Fire Gate, a Garrison too strong for you to siege" will ring a bell,
also not quite "that's all", she is a whole lot clearer than that, "The Kreegans? They are no more; I am sure of it. After we put down Lucifer Kreegan, my armies scoured Eofol searching for any signs of their continued existence. We found none. No, the Kreegan infestation of our world is eliminated" lol

Escaton himself even acknowledges that Catherine exterminated them lol

Avenue said:
First, Ironfist is a nickname (he reign with iron fist after all) - same as Richard Lionheart. So why some Sethine from Bracada Desert shouldn't have a nickname?
Second, yeah that's right about Morglin but you forgot that many persons have a middle name - so why not in this case?
Same with named A Strategic Quest as "First Succession War" - Morglin Ironfist won fight after Enrothian throne after all.


but there is no Sethine Ironfist in the Bracada Desert, she is in Garrote Gorge lol
and it does not say anywhere that Jerico is the guy's middle name, that sounds like more fan fiction lol, it says Jerico Ironfist is what he is called when other games say Morglin Ironfist is what he is called, it's a simple mistake lol

I bet you the writer of MM8 simply didn't know the full backstory of the Ironfists, and "that's all" lol

Avenue said:
There isn't? Then I guess I have missed Ashan, when you have one and only canon. Not to mention another franchises.


what are you even saying here, you are the one who said some NWC games may not be fully canon, I am simply agreeing with you and expanding, that nothing can be fully canon because there are many contradictions lol
even the earliest Might and Magic games have a few retcons lol

Ashan also does not have only one version of canon, you have Heroes Kingdoms which is an alternate universe, and apparently like 75% of the visuals in Heroes 5 are not canon any more lol

Avenue said:
Yes, there are even more plot holes (especially in H3:SoD, HC and HoMM4) but overall you can write a complex recap of events and heroes stories. Some minor details are missing or told in different ways in two games but you can always find an explanation.
If you really want to stick only to texts without using common sense, then you are like Belketh, founder of the Spider Cult, who thought he know everything after he found one, incomplete text about of Asha.


I actually agree with this, however your original explanation for Sandro's story is not common sense, it wouldn't make sense in the lore actually lol

it is important to present the original texts and facts without writing fan fiction when you are explaining the facts to someone, that is all I'm saying, I have the texts available to me too and I can easily tell when stuff is being made up lol
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