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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: The lore thread
Thread: The lore thread This thread is 43 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 39 40 41 42 43 · «PREV / NEXT»
GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 07, 2016 01:07 AM

Omg go have your "Ashan killed Heroes pt 126462646" elsewhere.

So whats Sephinroth scenario about?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 07, 2016 01:07 AM

GenyaArikado said:
He still doesnt get that lore was written around the gameplay they wanted, not otherwise.


So you think the gameplay dictated 7 schools of magic?

Ashan has no soul, everything from script to visuals reflects greed, even the state of product, unfinished and botched. When the first vision is to make cash and not dream, is on the wrong path, IMO
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 07, 2016 01:23 AM
Edited by GenyaArikado at 01:29, 07 Aug 2016.

Galaad7 said:
So you think the gameplay dictated 7 schools of magic?

Ashan has no soul, everything from script to visuals reflects greed, even the state of product, unfinished and botched. When the first vision is to make cash and not dream, is on the wrong path, IMO


For H6? Of course.

Through the years you have already stated your opinion and through the years i stated 1- i dont give a snow about it 2- i disagree. Im not interested in listening to it again but if you cant help the itch, go make your thread and have your "fun" elsewhere

I for one, want to know the details about Sephinroth scenario. I wish we had her H4 art (because her in-game art is obviously Synca)

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 07, 2016 01:28 AM

GenyaArikado said:
go make your thread and have your fun elsewhere


Lol, this actually is my thread mate, you can ignore my posts though.
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 07, 2016 01:31 AM

Galaad said:
GenyaArikado said:
go make your thread and have your fun elsewhere


Lol, this actually is my thread mate, you can ignore my posts though.


Though luck, you made a thread to discuss the lore not how snowty it is lol. Love yourself a bit and dont stain the only good thread you have made so far with your already dated self-pity.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 07, 2016 01:36 AM

Discussing the lore also means criticize it, now either stop or take it to the mods.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted August 07, 2016 01:46 AM

GenyaArikado said:
Though luck, you made a thread to discuss the lore not how snowty it is lol. Love yourself a bit and dont stain the only good thread you have made so far with your already dated self-pity.


you need to stop posting and go out for some air, nearly every post you make lately is some sort of pathetic personal insult or antisocial command against another HC member, it's rude and pretty grating to read even for the likes of me lol
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 07, 2016 01:52 AM

If you want to give, then you need to be able to take aswell lol. Anyways i said before Galaad told me to "stop" (lmao) i'm not interested in discussing. In fact all i want to do is use the thread as was properly intented...so Sephinroth?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 07, 2016 02:13 AM

GenyaArikado said:
Anyways i said before Galaad told me to "stop" (lmao) i'm not interested in discussing. In fact all i want to do is use the thread as was properly intented...so Sephinroth?


This thread was intended to discuss any matter of lore within civil manner, you are contesting the first and ignoring the second, you are welcomed to discuss about Sephinroth if you think yourself capable of not showing personal disrespect towards members expressing an opinion opposite to yours.
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Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 07, 2016 08:46 AM

Galaad said:
Momo said:

No it isn't at all.


I've explained why I think so in some other thread some time ago, here is the post grouping all parts. Hey I actually never bothered to write Part V, which is how Ashan affects the gameplay, maybe I'll find some time to write it and complete the post.


It's pretty simple actually.

The fact that they scrapped the old lore to build a new world was a moronic move. But it didn't force them to write crappy stories with abominable characters or make bugged games where half of the time you're waiting for loading time while asking yourself if the game has crashed or is just trolling you.

There are also things that are simply subjective. Many of you guys despised the aesthetics of HOMM6, I loved them. That is subjective. The sorry state of the plot(s) isn't subjective, the catastrophic state of the game(s) isn't subjetive. It's not about tastes, preferences, nostalgia or such.

Granted - the warped logic that made them think that scrapping Axeoth&co was a good move is the same that make them think they can release crap over crap and make no excuses for it. But the two aren't related.

HOMM5 could easily have been great even if still settled in Ashan.

That's my two cents. I'll take time to read your post though.

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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
Owning all 6 Heroes games
posted August 07, 2016 10:08 AM

Here is the biography of Sephinroth straight from the Heropedia...

of the game itself(at current version 2.0).

Name: Sephinroth

Affinity: Magic/Shade Weaver

Main trait: Black Marketeer = Provides 1 random rare resource per day.

Specialized Abilities: Shroud of Malassa(Dark Magic) and, Diplomacy

Faction Allegiance: Dungeon(Prior to her formal biography of being banished from the Sylvan Elves' territories)

Biography:

Born Saifiros, "Sharp steel eyes", this master-con-artist changed her name to "Sephinroth" because she felt it sounded more exotic and regal, giving her an aura of mystery. A skillful liar, she tried to pass herself as the late King Arniel's illegitimate daughter. When the masquerade was discovered, Sephinroth was forced to hide among the exiled Dark Elves.

Added comments of mine about her primary skills:

Not a good fighter but a very good spell-caster worthy of being a thorough warlock among her newly adopted allegiance to the Dark Elves. So, hoping that she gets the ability within her own skill-wheel of Paragon, teaching her the art of fighting is quite required at the start of her training then, continue on with her dark magic specialization + prime magic bonus abilities for learning as many disruptive spells as she can. Destructive spells could be part of her roster of abilities but, does not seem to be part of her will to learn them. Better teach her the governor ability and keep her close to any fort or town/city.


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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 07, 2016 01:18 PM

LucPatenaude said:
of the game itself(at current version 2.0).



I know her bio. I was talking about her scenario lol

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 07, 2016 02:19 PM

Momo said:

It's pretty simple actually.

The fact that they scrapped the old lore to build a new world was a moronic move. But it didn't force them to write crappy stories with abominable characters or make bugged games where half of the time you're waiting for loading time while asking yourself if the game has crashed or is just trolling you.

There are also things that are simply subjective. Many of you guys despised the aesthetics of HOMM6, I loved them. That is subjective. The sorry state of the plot(s) isn't subjective, the catastrophic state of the game(s) isn't subjetive. It's not about tastes, preferences, nostalgia or such.

Granted - the warped logic that made them think that scrapping Axeoth&co was a good move is the same that make them think they can release crap over crap and make no excuses for it. But the two aren't related.

HOMM5 could easily have been great even if still settled in Ashan.

That's my two cents. I'll take time to read your post though.


All you say is right, but I do not consider things to be as simple as that. Ubi from the very start has shown 0 interest for what the franchise is about. Starting by scrapping a full year of work from NWC on h5 despite 3DO being down as you probably know and hiring different developers for the task.
As I try to explain in my first part from the post I linked you, I strongly associate Ashan with business. Conceptually, no matter from which angle I look at it, I can't see anything else going on aside money grabbing and no real desire to create something in the line of original creators work.

The part where my reasoning gets tricky (and ofc is my own opinion) is that, to me, the scope of Ashan goes beyond just lore alongside story-telling. It also not only reflects visually (although that one should be obvious, visuals only tries to ports to the screen what one has in his head the most faithfully it can) but also beyond. Allow me just a side note about Ubi's art direction with the franchise, while I agree 100%  tastes are subjective, drastically changing the looks of an IP is not, and is bound to create division. As Zombi_Wizzard explained cleverly, the whole artistic feel switched from Sword & Sorcery to High Fantasy, using modern times as an excuse (again, for the sake of $$$ exclusively). Same with 3D. Same with simplified mechanics.
But let's even assume all of this could have worked out, the art direction change, if 3D had a correct implementation like in aow or civ, if the product shipped finished and working proper.

What I truly believe, and that is my whole point, is that for any kind of creation, the very first thing one has is the concept, and everything will come out from this concept. And with Ubiheroes that concept is Ashan. I think intrinsically the simplified mechanics, the poor optimization and legions of bugs, the perverted visuals thinking proportions, scale and perspective does not exist, and what not, are all fundamentally tied within Ashan. I mean all is extrapolation from the base concept and vision (if there is one). As long as the very first motive and inspiration for said creation is either corrupted, talentless, without clever perspective the problem will stay, and we could witness it with three games in a row in this setting. V got saved in extremis by TotE, VI died, VII is stillborn, and V has been said by its creator to be not accurate with Ashan!

The part where I agree with you is, that Ashan could have been saved. It could have been fought against by its development team in favor of solid gameplay, and take a role of minor importance instead of everything being painfully built around it, starting with the very campaigns (completely intended to use the free skill tree for starters).

But alas, even if the ship could have been saved from wrecking if the dev team had not been so obtuse versus community based suggestions and expectations for the game relayed by the vips (at least the ones we know here), I personally would still miss the magic emanating from the NWC games that made the franchise shine so much in the past. Because no matter how great V has become with TotE and further, there is the problems still conflicting with JVC&NWC's vision as a whole, and I think his root has much more impact on the product than we would tend to believe.
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Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 07, 2016 05:20 PM
Edited by Momo at 17:25, 07 Aug 2016.

I see where you are coming from, sir Galaad.

Where you and I differ is that I don't think the course of a product -especially such a creative product as a videogame- is so easy to set in stone.

I'll make one clear (and lore based) example just to convey what I am saying.

So team Erwan decided that it was a cool idea to revamp necropolis. Most of the traditionalists here will comment that it was a despicable move, that reflects the poor quality of most of the devs decisions. I in good faith don't think it was. I found the design of HOMM6 pretty good and I am pretty sure there are others who thought it as well. I liked the egyptian theme, the spider theme, the undead sphinx, their anti-materialist creed, I almost condoned the morbid use of green glow.

The question is: is my opinion objective? No. It's your -probably opposite- opinion objective? No.

What is objective though is that almost all in the lore about Necro in HOMM5, HOMM6 and HOMM7 sucked. And I can tell this from the standpoint of someone who thinks they devs absolutely nailed it with the core concept.

It sucks because its poorly delivered and incompetently written. It meant to add some depth to the philosophy of necromancers but it was used to do the opposite - they simply took necromancers and switched them from one one-dimensional side of the barricade (evil) to the other (good). They still divided the world in a flat good vs evil conflict and it just made their move meant to "add depth" make everything sound ridicolous, oddly justified and absurd. Take Arantir. Take Anastasia. Take Sveltana. These characters have no "moral complexity" whatsoever, they are good-aligned characters which fit oddly into their own faction. Unsurprisingly, they never receive complaints of criticism from their supposed allies of other (good) factions. Unsurprisingly, those who aren't flat-out good like Gevanni or Markal are quite as one-dimensional and stupidly evil as they could be.

Much similar is what they did with Stronghold and Dungeon, by the way and, if you come from HOMM4's campaigns, even Academy has been stripped of many of its controversial aspects. In making Inferno the only faction with a morally reprehensible stance, and in giving us no reason at all as to why the Inferno should be that (whereas the Kreegans had a history that justifies somewhat their behaviour) it made the demons seem even more flat and plainly, unreasonably evil, thus make the whole world feel more dumb, uninteresting and uncreative than ever. All of this while explicitly criticizing Axeoth&co for their simplicistic moral system and boasting how they will "leave the gentle fantasy world of Axeoth behind" like they were going to write the Watchmen equivalent of a videogame plot.

When they clearly understood that their work was ill-received, rather than taking it with balance and moderation they went extreme with it: people have problems with the spider theme? Well let's tell them skeletons have spiderwebs, liches drink spider venom, vampires drink spider venom (and are just upgraded liches anyway), let's give them a spider core unit and, YEAH, let's make the whole city in the shape of a spider! Take that! Down your throat, you idiot fans!

So it went from an elegant and relatively original "Death is peace and everlasting beauty" (HOMM5) to a revolting, persistent endless repetition of the same two-cents philosophical rants over and over in every character, dialogue and campaign (ToTE and forward).

---

Example is over.

Where I think this community is on the wrong side is exactly here. You're looking like you're saying "It was perfection and you changed perfection and therefore it sucks". So their obvious stance, which is sadly easily accepted by many, is to reply: "I cannot make the same product over and over just because you think it's perfect, I had to try and change even if I took a risk". In my example, you seem to think that this endless stream of narrative mistakes are the forced consequence of their decision to revamp the undead faction. But in doing so, you are somewhat justifying them without meaning to.

See, the rain of crap we are subjected to isn't at all a necessary consequence of trying to change. Exactly like the idiotic narrative isn't a necessary consequence of the Ashan settling and the heavily damaged gameplay isn't a necessary consequence of making new mechanics and abilities and the pain my PC feels when try to render these games isn't a mandatory price to have pleasant and beautiful visuals. Nothing of what came to us was unavoidable - everything is just coming from the team's incompetence and Ubisoft usual conduct of vampirizing whatever product they can.  

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted August 07, 2016 05:34 PM

Arantir wasn't exactly a good character. He'd still happily sacrifice thousands for the greater good.
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 07, 2016 05:47 PM
Edited by GenyaArikado at 17:52, 07 Aug 2016.

Actually they didnt. Its just that H5 and H6 necropolis main Heroes were good-ish or grey-ish. Zenda in Heroes 7 is actually the best example of gray necropolis hero, for some Necromancers she was a hero, for the rest of the people she was a madwoman.

Same for applied for Dungeon and Academy (we played with their "good" sides until H7) but the former still have the Drow thing going on and the latter were basically a bunch of Joseph Mengeles

Quote:
See, the rain of crap we are subjected to isn't at all a necessary consequence of trying to change. Exactly like the idiotic narrative isn't a necessary consequence of the Ashan settling and the heavily damaged gameplay isn't a necessary consequence of making new mechanics and abilities and the pain my PC feels when try to render these games isn't a mandatory price to have pleasant and beautiful visuals. Nothing of what came to us was unavoidable - everything is just coming from the team's incompetence and Ubisoft usual conduct of vampirizing whatever product they can.


I like Ashan so i dont consider it crap but yeah, agreed-ish. Lore was written around gameplay for H6 guys. In H7 the seven magic schools come off "cheap" because H7 is a Frankenstein game

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Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 07, 2016 11:08 PM
Edited by Momo at 23:09, 07 Aug 2016.

Elvin said:
Arantir wasn't exactly a good character. He'd still happily sacrifice thousands for the greater good.


In Dark Messiah. In TotE he was a walking exposition piece who repeated endlessly that "Asha uses all" and was hellbent on taking on  Biara and her demonic friends. Kinda like Gotai, he basically has no purpose in the plot but to say "And then these guys came and they were against demons as well as the already introduced guys, yay for coalition". There's literally nothing about Arantir beyond that. And mind you, by HOMM5's standards Arantir is a pretty well written character.

GenyaArikado said:
were basically a bunch of Joseph Mengeles



Yeah sure, wizards did some horrible things. Once again, the devs nailed it with Ashan's lore, capturing the need the wizards faction has to keep everything in their control and their sense of superiority, both of which were a theme in HOMM4.

And once again it's the execution that failed. Oh how many crimes the wizards committed! Are they going to pay for them? No. Does anyone have a problem with this? No. Did their crimes served a greater, justifiable purpose? Yes. Do we ever get to deal with the anger and pain they caused? No, not at all. Are they in the plot just to be another wave of people to send against demons? Yes. The idea is there, the execution is lacking.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 08, 2016 12:00 AM

Quote:
Are they going to pay for them?...Does anyone have a problem with this?


The orc/beastmen revolts were just that. Who is gonna make them pay for that though? The "closest" thing they had to friends were the dark elves and post Tuidhanna death they didnt even have a proper home until many years post-H6 vanilla stories.

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Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 08, 2016 06:40 PM

GenyaArikado said:
Quote:
Are they going to pay for them?...Does anyone have a problem with this?


The orc/beastmen revolts were just that. Who is gonna make them pay for that though? The "closest" thing they had to friends were the dark elves and post Tuidhanna death they didnt even have a proper home until many years post-H6 vanilla stories.


Besides the facts that:
1) creating a new life form is debatably not necessarily an evil act depending how you see the nature/nurture dialogue;
2) in the end, creating the orcs still saved the world;

My point remains untouched by your reply. That's because the revolt of orcs and beastmen constitutes the lore, not the plot. It's in the past. Within the plot, the wizards are a force for good, period. They do nothing controversial or morally shaded to reach their goals, they just kill demons which ultimately is the ultimate measure of goodness in Ashan. Once again, like for the undead, I don't think the lore for the wizards was that much off the mark. And the plot still performed horribly nonetheless.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted August 08, 2016 09:17 PM

That's one way to look at it. I mean they saved their own skin first and foremost.
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