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| Thread: Husham's Maps and Campaigns |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 05, 2015 01:10 PM |
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Warmonger said:
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because the work is still in progress,and maps weren't fully released.So please,please wait
How about that YOU wait before showing anything in public? No one in the world is interested in the fact that you can't make maps.
Sorry xD
I will release them.Just wait.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 05, 2015 03:43 PM |
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husham123 said:
OMG !!! SO AWSOME MAP !!!
Was that directed at the map I made in under an hour? Because I am not sure who you're adressing in your post.
Quote:
As i sayd,i need more time,and finally,i understand.Could you please tell me some maps to inspire myself ?
Please use spaces after a punctuation mark, that increases readability quite a lot: "As I said, I need more time and finally, I understand. Could you..." Note the spaces after each , and . ? I also put your 'i's in capitals, since in English, it's always written as a capital when you're talking about yourself.
As for your edit, it's a slight step up, so you're learning - and that's a good thing.
One of the most powerful tools of the map editor is the passability check tool. It's the tool that draws each square with a red overlay if it's impassable, yellow if it's passable but contains an object that can be picked up or a building entrance and no overlay when it's free to travel.
Note how for instance my map has numerous nooks and crannies with resources and artifacts in them, as well as mines, which are not directly accessible because there's a monster blocking passage to it. This means that the player (AI or Human) is forced to clear the obstacle (the monster) before it can access the treasure it was guarding. It's ok for some resources to be freely available, but the more precious something is, the higher tier the guard should be and the more effort the player has to make to get it. Furthermore, the more precious the guarded items are, the more rare they should be on the map. Small passages are also ideal to place monsters and/or events, because you force the player to interact with them before they can proceed. These bottlenecks don't limit freedom in map design, but can actually give you a lot of control over the flow of your map as a whole!
Globally, each area of the map should present the (Human) player something. It could be a treasure area to pillage, it could contain (temporary) stat boosters, creature dwellings, etc ... so, basically, for each section of the map, there should be a purpose. Look at my map again; the starting area for the Human player has 1 of each mine, except the Gold Mine. Mines for Rare Resources are guarded by Tier 3 creatures. There's a clump of trees in the middle, so the player will have to travel around it to visit everything in the area. Some random, small objects are scattered about, like a tree stump, a flower bed or a rock. A player can't do anything with it, but it adds variety to the scenery, quite important to make a map look appealing.
Then there's the rocky area on the right side. It's ambience is quite different, as well as its setup; it's mainly intended to be traversed, no Towns to be developed. It has a few items of interest though, but nothing spectecular.
Finally, the Necropolis on the south. Like the Human territory, it has one of each mine (except the Alchemist' Lab, which could be outside and below the area you see) as well as a Gold Mine, to give the AI a slightly higher income. The scenery is once again, different, too. It has a lot of dead trees (actually taken from the Swamp objects) to add some Necromancer ambience. Like in the Human area, there are all sorts of obstacles that prevent "straight line" approaches for any Hero - they are forced to walk around those objects.
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 05, 2015 05:24 PM |
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Umm, and yes, I was talking about the map you made in a less an hour.
And sorry, I didn't knew those grammatic rules, because i am european. Anyways, I learnt, and I will still learn about this, by the meaning that I will learn how to make a good map, to be at least decent.
I need time as Salamandre taught me,and i finally understand.
Umm, and thanks for the info,i already applyed this. I am gonna post a screenshot of a LITTLE part of the map, where I will show you what i learnt.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 05, 2015 05:36 PM |
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 05, 2015 05:40 PM |
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This map was made in less than 10 seconds 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 05, 2015 07:35 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 19:44, 05 Apr 2015.
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husham123 said:
And sorry, I didn't knew those grammatic rules, because i am european.
It may come as a surprise, but being European counts for most people here on these forums . Heck, English isn't my primary language either. I think it rather has to do with an issue of age, instead of education. Just for the record, how old are you? You don't have to answer it if you don't want to, of course, I am just curious.
This is also prevalent in your initial map designs; you have yet to understand that the map provides the player with the journey towards the maps' explicit goal and that what matters for an interesting playing experience is not the final goal, but rather the journey itself - which, in fact, is an implicit goal; the map isn't there to slow down the player, but to tell the player an interesting story along the way towards that explicit goal. Your initial maps freely give away powerful artifacts and massive armies, while those are things the player should have to work for, and preferably at some expense and difficulty. The challenge, no matter how difficult as long as the player can beat it, is what makes the game and the map interesting to play.
LizardWarrior said:
This map was made in less than 10 seconds
Ow, come on, Lizzy, randomly generated maps are notoriously of (much) lower quality than hand-made maps. You of all people should know that .
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 05, 2015 07:37 PM |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 05, 2015 07:43 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Wrong. In this case, they are still nicer than Hushan's maps. See?
True enough, but if we tell Husham he should use the random map generator to make his maps, we're not showing him the way he has to go  .
But of course, there is a core of truth here just as well: those random maps can be educative in their own right.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 05, 2015 08:01 PM |
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Maurice said:
I think it rather has to do with an issue of age, instead of education.
Ok, now we know that Lizzy was 5 yo when he made his first thread.
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Era II mods and utilities
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 05, 2015 08:02 PM |
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Don't do this, please
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 05, 2015 08:06 PM |
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Maurice said:
Salamandre said:
Wrong. In this case, they are still nicer than Hushan's maps. See?
True enough, but if we tell Husham he should use the random map generator to make his maps, we're not showing him the way he has to go .
But of course, there is a core of truth here just as well: those random maps can be educative in their own right.
Umm, I guess I will try to learn something from both random,and fan-made-maps. And just for a think to say, the first map was the beginning of the campaign, meaning that the player automatically have to take all those towns,and work more on the next campaign.The first map was simply about to launch the campaign. It gets interesting, harder, and even less noobish with each map I will release.The point is simply taking of on some of Husham's Enemyes.Husham II is my character , but Husham I was inspired by my uncle  .
Ok, I will concentrate on the player to work more for getting the troops. If I want the player to go directly though a way to fight,or get something, I will make obstacles,and even a sign (map object) to tell him to go that way. I understood. But for example, what if i add simply a few forts, specially for a tactical reason. I meant that if the player shall conquer it for the story, would that be bad ?
Sure, I will listen to you. If you could, please tell me more tips on this topic, guess you and Salamandre are map specialists, and you are the only ones to know enough on how to make a good map. So LizardWarrior knows how to make good maps (good maps textures).
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 05, 2015 08:20 PM |
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I think the best way is to select your random map template (using HD mod, you'll have more than enough variety), create random map with size and specifications (water, no water, monster strength etc) that suits your design plan best, open it with editor and modify it into a custom map.
It saves a lot of time compared to opening an empty map and placing all rocks, mountains, trees and the generator is better at making that stuff look natural which would be random-looking like in nature.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 05, 2015 08:35 PM |
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artu said:
I think the best way is to select your random map template (using HD mod, you'll have more than enough variety), create random map with size and specifications (water, no water, monster strength etc) that suits your design plan best, open it with editor and modify it into a custom map.
It saves a lot of time compared to opening an empty map and placing all rocks, mountains, trees and the generator is better at making that stuff look natural which would be random-looking like in nature.
I still work on one of my other maps, but when I will finish it, I'll give it a try. It will be decend, but it will have the campaign too...
THANKS MAN !!!  YOU'RE A BORNED GENIUS xD
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 05, 2015 09:09 PM |
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husham123 said:
If you could, please tell me more tips on this topic, guess you and Salamandre are map specialists, and you are the only ones to know enough on how to make a good map. So LizardWarrior knows how to make good maps (good maps textures).
Lol, I think you give us too much credit with respect to other map makers out there . In fact, before I made that quick setup I posted yesterday, I haven't made a map for Heroes 3 in years.
A lot of it is common sense, though. Take your time and patience, try to look at the various areas of the map as if you are not creating it, but rather playing it. No one likes maps that drag on and on forever, but neither do people like maps that give them everything on a silver platter, which they can finish in a week or two ingame time.
And make a hundred maps, playtesting them as you go, examining hundreds of maps made by other players in the mean time, to figure out what individual components make a good map and which make it horrible.
Like I said, the explicit goal isn't the actual goal of the map, just like reading a book isn't about reaching the final word on the final page, but rather about everything in between - and the best stories actually make you regret reaching that final word . Or like a song, where it's not hearing that final note being played, but the whole ensemble that lead up to that final note .
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 05, 2015 09:33 PM |
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Maurice said:
husham123 said:
If you could, please tell me more tips on this topic, guess you and Salamandre are map specialists, and you are the only ones to know enough on how to make a good map. So LizardWarrior knows how to make good maps (good maps textures).
Lol, I think you give us too much credit with respect to other map makers out there . In fact, before I made that quick setup I posted yesterday, I haven't made a map for Heroes 3 in years.
A lot of it is common sense, though. Take your time and patience, try to look at the various areas of the map as if you are not creating it, but rather playing it. No one likes maps that drag on and on forever, but neither do people like maps that give them everything on a silver platter, which they can finish in a week or two ingame time.
And make a hundred maps, playtesting them as you go, examining hundreds of maps made by other players in the mean time, to figure out what individual components make a good map and which make it horrible.
Like I said, the explicit goal isn't the actual goal of the map, just like reading a book isn't about reaching the final word on the final page, but rather about everything in between - and the best stories actually make you regret reaching that final word . Or like a song, where it's not hearing that final note being played, but the whole ensemble that lead up to that final note .
If I understood good, you are saying that i just need patience, and a bit playing cool maps, and understanding what made them cool.
So,to look at the story i made for the map, and aiming to make the map more interesting playing, then just thinking about the end, and how shall people reach it.
Is it good ?
Ok, right now i am thinking of it, and even making the map.
Respect for y'all, you helped me learn something by talking with you in one day,than playing with you one whole year.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 06, 2015 02:10 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 02:19, 06 Apr 2015.
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husham123 said:
If I understood good, you are saying that i just need patience, and a bit playing cool maps, and understanding what made them cool.
Patience in multiple ways. First of all, making a map takes time. The more quality you want to put into it, the more that time increases, so you have to have the patience to invest that time in it, instead of going in with the idea of making a map within half an hour. The map I made in one of my previous posts is lacking a number of important things, like for instance a way to have the blue Necropolis AI be any threat to the player, since he doesn't have a way to leave his own area until the player removes the red border guard - and even then, no means to pass the blue border guard up north. I never playtested it either, so it might be that the blue player has too much of an advantage for the human player to beat (even with some effort). I didn't set spells, so the AI could get access to Fly and Dimension Door - which you likely don't want. So, yes, patience in the form of the time you need to invest it into not only making it, but especially into polishing it.
But also patience in the way the player reaches the maps' explicit goal. If the goal is to conquer a specific castle, throw some 'roadblocks' in the way, like a quest guard or two which take a bit of time and travelling around the map to solve first, or a potential danger to the player's base of power (his main city) that he has to deal with first. Something highly annoying (like another pestering AI player) that is not mandatory to take care of, but would make life for the player a whole lot easier is also an incentive for the player to tackle that aspect before aiming for the main goal.
Basically, making a good map requires the combination of several different aspects. The story is one; is it compelling and believable enough? Does it branch off and feature side quests that are fun and interesting to explore and complete? This is basically inspiration and depends on whether or not you are capable of imagining a captivating story that has some depth to it. It is the underlaying foundation of your map and like a house, no matter how well it is built, if the foundation is lacking your house is probably not standing solidly. This aspect is of large importance, even if you haven't really touched the map editor yet at this point.
Once you do, the layout of the map is another, in two ways; on a functional level does the map have a good 'flow'? With that I mean, is the difficulty smoothly increasing as the player progresses through the map, or is it too easy or too hard? Any roadblocks where the player can suddenly slam into a wall that he has to deal with one way or another before he can progress further? Does it have required areas as well as optional areas? Does each area function in accordance to its design and intention for the story? In other words, segment the map in various areas of various shapes and sizes, based on what each area should 'do' on the map.
On a technical level, is each area in its own right worthy of exploring and investigating or are there areas that are lacking, needing some touching up to make them more interesting? Do areas connect the way they should (take special note of Subterranean Gates and Teleporters as well as Key Master Tents), or are there issues where areas are connected when they shouldn't (because you missed an open spot somewhere that should be closed, like a shoreline with rocks that still has a small landing area). Treasures that can be picked up or buildings that can be reached without engaging the Guards, because those Guards are misplaced? Or, are all events placed in such a way that the player has to trigger them?
Fourth is the map on an aesthetic level: how does it look? Do the objects integrate well enough with eachother to blend into a specific ambiance in that particular area, or is the contrast too large (like Swamp Mountains in Snow terrain)? Does the area look natural in origin or is variety lacking? How are the various doodads (the random stuff like rocks, flower beds and tree stumps and the like) strewn across the map? Do the roads look natural, or do they have weird twists and splits that shouldn't be there? This is even moreso an issue in the subterranean area, with the cave walls - especially in random maps, the cave walls can be drawn quite ugly. But in general, is the map pleasing to look at?
To conclude, you need to examine your map design on various different aspects to make sure it's a good one. And if I may be so blunt, all four of them are in quite some need of attention in the maps you've published so far. Don't regard this as negative feedback, but rather take it as constructive criticism and try to distinguish in these different aspects to see what you can do to improve your maps.
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 06, 2015 11:16 AM |
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@Maurice
So you mean that i need more time for everything ?
I know, I need to have patience,to think what peoples like,and what they want to see. You mean too that it is more easyer to make a bad map in 1 second, then making a GREAT map in 1 year.
So, by the meaning, you say that I DON'T have the permission to release noob maps on this forum, so i need to at least make them decent, so the forum shall not have problems, and know that there are more Pros then Noobs.
Am I right ?
Ok, thanks, you showed me how to be patient.
I will respect you, and wait more before releasing those noob/awfull maps. And so thinking about HOW shall I make it loved,and at least decent, and better play 1000000000000000000000 of maps before even trying to made one. But at the moment I made this topic SPECIALLY to release the maps to be tested, and to gain more info on how making it good. Those are my first maps, and is good that you telled me, not to do the same mistake OVER and OVER AGAIN (as I did) !!!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 06, 2015 02:13 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 14:14, 06 Apr 2015.
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husham123 said:
@Maurice
So you mean that i need more time for everything ?
I know, I need to have patience,to think what peoples like,and what they want to see. You mean too that it is more easyer to make a bad map in 1 second, then making a GREAT map in 1 year.
Yup, but that applies to many things in life . A lot of things are easy to learn but take a lifetime to master . Leonardo DaVinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa as his first painting ever, so to speak.
Quote:
So, by the meaning, you say that I DON'T have the permission to release noob maps on this forum, so i need to at least make them decent, so the forum shall not have problems, and know that there are more Pros then Noobs.
Am I right ?
No, you are wrong. You are free to publish whatever you like, but just remember to indicate why you're publishing them. If you only want to throw something out here for the wolves to show a rudimentary idea of your maps and ask for suggestions, that's ok; the only way to learn is by making mistakes and getting feedback on how to avoid those mistakes. As it is, you learn more from your mistakes than anything you could ever learn in school .
The point is that when you made your initial post, it could be read like you made some full-fledged maps, rich in detail and story, so expectations were rather high, mostly based on your own praise. But then the maps were found ... lacking.
Getting better at something usually goes in stages. First, you are unaware you're lacking in skill. The next step is to actually realise you are lacking and making an effort to identify where you are lacking skill and finding means to increase your skills. The step after that your skills have improved, but you are still aware and have to focus on making the effort to keep your skills up to level. Finally, once you have done this enough, it becomes a habit and you become unaware that you actually have skills enough to make good maps .
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 06, 2015 02:28 PM |
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@Maurice
Thanks man,you helped me a lot, glad we met.
Umm, but shall i release one of the project i am working right now ?
It is the part 3 of ''The Escaping Of Husham II'',and i applyed what was needed. I didn't sayd that IT'S FINISHED, I only wanted to share some pics, and the map, so you could tell me PLEASE if there is any mistake, or it is not, so i shall know that people at least will agree that it is a good map.
Oh,and with that Mona Lisa, it actually WAS the first ''painting'', because at that time it was very awsome to see that picture, but the rest were just simple poops xD.Eh, just kiddin', I agree with that thing
@Salamandre
Hey, Valery, a bit help from you does made this topic, but not this topic, but my own maps way fun to play them.
I saw what good maps you made on maps4heroes.com , and it shall be awsome to tell me some of your secrets, PLZ
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 10, 2015 05:32 PM |
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I have no secrets. I played the game for 12 years, know by heart all good maps, I believe I could imagine a few situations other maps do not offer, and then I spent a lot of time on each map, until I was happy with. I got also valuable testers in HC, and that helped a lot.
And when I say I know by heart all good maps, it means exactly what i say. I removed and replaced every object in each until I got the pattern for optimal use of the editor. Is a matter of time, like in everything.
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Era II mods and utilities
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