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| Thread: Arcane Knowledge - yay or nay |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 07:44 PM |
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In today's stream, Limbic's guy in charge of balancing said they introduced AK as it is right now in order to not add it in as another required skill like Wisdom in H3.
Of course they didn't adress the real problems (exceedingly high number of Magic Schools and low amount of spells), but that's that.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 02, 2015 12:46 PM |
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If you see it from a practical point of view, arcane knowledge is the current system plus more spells which.. everyone should want?
There is still the matter of untrained spells being very inferior to spells with mastery but that is a simple matter of editing the spell formulae with a higher focus on spellpower. And changing the arcane requirements which should be even easier.
So at the end of the day, more spells for you. There are of course some offenders to the system like dispel and lightning reflexes but those should be 'fixed' regardless. Might heroes are good enough without getting powerful spells that do not require spellpower and getting access to more spells doesn't help.
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 01:09 PM |
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More spells? Yes. ALL spells? Absolutely not.
Spells that scale according to spellpower? Yes. Useless unranked ones? Definitely not.
Acquisition based on a Paragon ability and limited to a certain level of spells (lvl 2?), similar to H5's Magic Insight? Yes. Arbitrarily introducing Arcane Knowledge based on obsolete H3 Wisdom mechanics? Unarguably not.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 02, 2015 06:40 PM |
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I'm 100 % with Stevie here. Furthermore, the irony of the whole thing is that one of the few positive things about how the new spellschools are designed (elements instead of function like in H5) is that there's actually no real need to learn all spells. No matter what spell school you specialize in, you'll have some damaging spells, you'll have some buffs, you'll have some debuffs, etc. Sure, there'll be some other damaging spells, buffs, debuffs etc. in the other schools, but at untrained mastery they'll be likely to be less attractive than the skilled spells of your own school. That is quite unlike H5, where each school was specialized - if you learned Light or Dark Magic, you would want some Destructive spells still as backup, because they did something else than your mastered spells.
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Elvin
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posted September 02, 2015 07:18 PM |
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Not sure if misunderstood or ignored 
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alcibiades
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posted September 02, 2015 09:56 PM |
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Elvin said:
Not sure if misunderstood or ignored
Maybe misunderstood(?), but basically I just think I disagree with you, at least partially?
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 10:46 PM |
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There's no misunderstanding at all. Granted, we are getting more spells and that's desirable, but there was a better alternative in H5's Magic Insight. This is not gotta catch'em all style anymore, a la H3 Wisdom. Or is that not so? If you think I'm wrong, Elvin, then I expect counterarguments and not you playing "misunderstood" cards on us.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 11:09 PM |
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Stevie is right. In H7 Magic Insight would be more impactful than in H5, because of the decreased number of Magic levels (level 3 spells in a 4-level system should be better than in a 5-level one) but still doesn't let you learn "everything" like AK does now, that's simply excesive.
By adressing the issue of mastery-depence, making them a tad more useful through Spell Power, should leave something better out of this mess of Magic System.
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 11:26 PM |
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Yay but - improve. Whatever this is called, end result should be like (1) mastery gives access to ALL available spells in one school and (2) some other skill(points) give access to SOME spells in other schools. I don't mind if high-level magic heroes eventually get access to most spells (say 3/4), if this comes late and with a suitable price.
I assume that there will be more spells, some with more specific effect and situational, in expansions. Then all of this makes more sense.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 03, 2015 09:21 AM |
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I can only hope for a redesign of the magic system akin the skill system revamp from vanilla H5 to TotE. There may be hope yet ... (am I too optimistic?)
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 03, 2015 01:14 PM |
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Maurice said:
I can only hope for a redesign of the magic system akin the skill system revamp from vanilla H5 to TotE. There may be hope yet ... (am I too optimistic?)
Hope is the last to die, my friend. I would be surprised if it happened but who knows. Limbic wants to keep on working on the game, so the basic requirement for such a shift is fulfilled. Now we can only wait...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 03, 2015 01:17 PM |
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I'd rather have all my spells to be available and useful, given AK benefits an improvement and we get more variety within spells in general. Voted yay, don't understand why so many want less spells, isn't the whole h7 restricted enough??! ... Break these boundaries it can only do some good.
Ps. h3 vs h5 magic systems is matter of preference, both systems worked alright.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 03, 2015 01:23 PM |
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Galaad said:
Voted yay, don't understand why so many want less spells, isn't the whole h7 restricted enough??!
This isn't about getting more spells, this is about the rather awkward design they implemented with Arcane Knowledge  .
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 03, 2015 01:27 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 13:30, 03 Sep 2015.
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Quote:
the rather awkward design they implemented
Yes I know, what is NOT badly implemented in the game anyway ...
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Storm-Giant
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 03, 2015 02:22 PM |
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Maurice said:
I can only hope for a redesign of the magic system akin the skill system revamp from vanilla H5 to TotE. There may be hope yet ... (am I too optimistic?)
It's Ubisoft we're talking about! 
Seriously though, Heroes IV still holds the best Magic Schools of the series IMO. They all had a theme alright, but they weren't so restricted to it like H5. For instance, let's compare and contrast H5 Destructive with H4 Chaos Magic:
- Destructive School
- Chaos School
As we can see, while H5 Destructive was solely focused on Direct Damage spells (all 12 of them), in Chaos School we can see a healthy variety of effects:
- 11 Direct Damage spells (out of 27)
- 11 Blessing spells (out of 27, including mass spells)
- 5 Curse spells (out of 27, including mass spells)
It wasn't limited to Direct Damage spells. Mastering only one school didn't limit your gameplay as H5 did. You could use Confusion to render an enemy useless for one turn, cast slayer/bloodlust/First Strike to boost your army, or rain havoc among your enemies through DD spells 
If we are to see some H5-like Magic Schools, that new iteration must push for effect variety within each School. That's how a Magic system should be.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 03, 2015 03:02 PM |
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If anything this is one of the directions established with H6 that I favour. Though we need more spells to get a proper feel of said diversity. And less clone spells like agony and acid spray..
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alcibiades
Honorable
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of Gold Dragons
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posted September 03, 2015 05:01 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
If we are to see some H5-like Magic Schools, that new iteration must push for effect variety within each School. That's how a Magic system should be.
I humbly call my right to disagree 100 %. What made the H5 system great was exactly the fact that it was so specialized. In that sense, it was the complete anti-pole to H3/H7 system, and that was its quality. The more you start to mix effects in the same school, the more pointless you start making the idea of separate spell schools.
And I still think highest level spells should always be reserved for people who have actually mastered the school, bar perhaps some ultimate ability. The fact that learning Master Dark Magic and Expert Fire Magic makes you capable of learning Resurrection just seems nonsense to me.
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Storm-Giant
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 03, 2015 05:32 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Storm-Giant said:
If we are to see some H5-like Magic Schools, that new iteration must push for effect variety within each School. That's how a Magic system should be.
I humbly call my right to disagree 100 %. What made the H5 system great was exactly the fact that it was so specialized. In that sense, it was the complete anti-pole to H3/H7 system, and that was its quality. The more you start to mix effects in the same school, the more pointless you start making the idea of separate spell schools.
Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, so I'll try a second time. I don't want to have schools that are over-specialized because they restrict gameplay a lot, nor I do want to have schools that offer you everything - that's pointless, and I agree multi-use schools have the tendency of overlapping too much.
Another point to consider it's the number of spells - in H5 it was low, really low, so low that I firmly believe it didn't showed the flaws of them being so specialised. If you were to increase the number of spells from 12 to 16-18, can you really imagine having 18 different DD spells in Destructive? Because I don't.
No, what I desire is a bit of a middle road (still leaning more towards specialised than not). You want to keep Destrucitve as a mainly damage dealer school? Sure thing, just add a couple of blessing and two or three curse type spells. Mind you, those buff/debuff spells can be coherent with the main theme of the school - they could be all for offensive purposes, like giving your stack a second attack, or add some elemental damage, or make the enemy unit take damage everytime it shoots/cast a spell.
I also think DD spells could get a bit more of creativity. For instance, Meteor Shower could deal damage two turns in a row instead of just dealing more damage than the previous AoE spell. A Tsunami spell could deal damage AND push units 1-2 tiles away and so on.
alcibiades said:
And I still think highest level spells should always be reserved for people who have actually mastered the school, bar perhaps some ultimate ability. The fact that learning Master Dark Magic and Expert Fire Magic makes you capable of learning Resurrection just seems nonsense to me.
On this I can only agree, minus the ultimate ability (I don't like those )
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted September 03, 2015 05:52 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Another point to consider it's the number of spells - in H5 it was low, really low, so low that I firmly believe it didn't showed the flaws of them being so specialised. If you were to increase the number of spells from 12 to 16-18, can you really imagine having 18 different DD spells in Destructive? Because I don't.
Yes.
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alcibiades
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posted September 03, 2015 05:55 PM |
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But when that's said, I agree: There can be more creativity in "Destructive" spells, and schools can cover more diverse areas, I just think different schools shouldn't have the same areas. Of course, with only 4 magic skills instead of 7 ...
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