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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Heroes VII missing features and bad design decisions - version 1.1
Thread: Heroes VII missing features and bad design decisions - version 1.1 This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted October 05, 2015 07:13 AM

bloodsucker said:
Is it true there are no Witch Huts and Universities? No object to learn skills without leveling up?


There are such objects. One that gives you one ability from all possible skills, one that gives you a magic ability only (from all magical skiils possible) and one that gives you a might ability only. The difference is that you need to pay 5000 for such a service. Otherwise, they work in the same way as Witch Huts.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 05, 2015 08:31 AM

Salamandre said:
Elvin said:

There's more to heroes than competitive gaming. I know many people whose grasp of the series I'd trust more than a top ranker's.


Yes sure, many people are intelligent and might grasp what is needed. The problem with nice ideas is that they get drowned under thousand of noob requests, you don't expect a dev to read entirely the 2000 pages and extract good ideas. Thats why the only way to collaborate, IMO, is to refer to the only secure source of seriousness, the competitive gaming.

If you don't agree even on this, guys, then there is zero chances one day someone influence devs. But I guess devs are not interested neither, so it beats a dead horse anyway.


As the last quote of that sequence about whom they should ask.

In my opinion, a game developer shouldn't need to ask anyone - if you develop a game you should have an idea about the whats and hows and a vision - otherwise why develop the game in the first place?
Now, if you decide - for whatever reason behind it - to invite so-called "experts" to go along, they should be heard - otherwise why invite them in the first place?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2015 09:27 AM

The difference between developers testers and a pro of gaming is that developer is always testing to see if his features properly working. The game pro is pushing test to see if game is working in extreme situations. The developer will never try to break his own technical logic because he obviously doesn't want to redesign a thing which IS working, basically.

To give example, let's talk Civilization 5. You have a nice feature, must done first "choose tech to research, choose policy, choose unit promotion" before ending turn. If you don't complete all above actions, the END TURN button does not display.  For a developer, this is working nice, he tested and all fine and sweet. But for the pro, he will push the game to its limits, and once all promotions, policies and techs have been completed, he will notice that the mechanics still propose same pattern, therefore he can't go to next turn. This is a lethal mistake. Then we could remember the broken system of pathfinding when the one tile/army, then the broken flanking system which works ONLY if there is place around, and a mapmaker as Natalka will spot this nonsense in a second.

That's what I was talking, of course developers must first have idea what they do, but for last touches, they will always need a pro of gaming, to listen and pay.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 05, 2015 09:48 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 09:56, 05 Oct 2015.

If you write that under the assumption, the "experts" had been
a) invited to tesplay the hell out of the game or
b) asked about their opinion on balance or anything else
you should maybe reconsider.

EDIT: and since I see you use flanking as an example. Dude, I know that I don't have much credit with you for a couple of reasons (as was the case a long time ago with Stevie), so maybe you are better off asking Elvin, about how I felt like Cato the old, demanding Flanking delendam esse or at least severely change a couple of mechanics in support of the mechanism, like, twice a day, as soon as that basterd of a mechanic was on the horizon of being in the game.

And you don't need a silly "expert" on whatever to see that this mechanism is just working like an ability for everyone: Flanking is in essence an intrinsic unit ability valled "backstabbing", and you don't need to be a genius to see that this is crap, and you'd be way better off to give that either a couple of fitting units or make it part of the fragging Dungeon racial.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2015 10:02 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 10:13, 05 Oct 2015.

I was talking about Civilization 5 flanking and pathfinding as terrible mistakes. And this is not about spiting the hell out of a game but trying to have an positive ratio win/loss, so this means knowing and exploiting all possible flaws. A guy who played the game for 500 hours alone will know 10% of the game flaws and potential. A guy who won 500 games vs human will know 100% so he will know what to look after when testing a new sequel. This is verifiable only when playing online and for a looong time, so no need to start argue about.

And I'm not accusing anyone, just gave my opinion about how a game should be build. I am not aware who was invited to Heroes 7 or what were the discussions, didn't follow the whole thing. Just generalizing.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 05, 2015 10:16 AM

No, you were talking about HoMM 7 using Civ 5 as an example, and I try to explain to you that your example is bad, because with both 6 and 7 there are plenty of things so obviously wrong that a developer should throw them in the bin 5 seconds after having the thought.

It's not like H6 or H7 would be games that shine on the surface and their severe flaws would be obvious only for "expert players", but for them immediately.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2015 07:04 PM

I don't know about 7, I got the beta, started game, had to wait 2 minutes to get setup screen, start small map, AI took about 30 seconds turn from the start, did a mistake turn 2 so had to reload, +1 minute to wait. For me this is instant "au revoir", no matter how fantastic might or not might be one game. I expect a catastrophe once graphical mods are added, map is giant, several AI players, you will stare half of the day at the loading bar.

So before even talking about game play details, there is a wretched problem of optimization which makes your gaming experience a nightmare.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 05, 2015 07:08 PM

Try 8-10+ mins till you reach the main menu. Wtf.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 05, 2015 07:53 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 19:54, 05 Oct 2015.

You play on Amiga or what?

Ah I forgot you are greek, austerity kicks in.




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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 05, 2015 07:55 PM

That's what I said, didn't I? There are a lot of issues you don't need any experts for to see - so you can probably guess easily what more experts would have been able to do. 10 times a big fat zero isn't more than 5 times zero.

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Pim18
Pim18


Known Hero
posted October 06, 2015 10:47 AM

I think that most of the optimization issues exist because Ubisoft A.)gave the devs a very low budget to work with and B.) rushed the release date.
Honestly though there is no excuse for loading times this long. The waiting turns times against the AI is a bit better in the final game then in the Beta's but it still is sluggish. This pretty much kills the pacing of the game where you spend most of your time waiting for a screen to load or the AI to finish a turn.
With more time and a bigger budget these problems could all have been ironed out. Ofcourse that does not solve the shallow gameplay issues but that is a different issue altogether.

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MadDemiurg
MadDemiurg

Tavern Dweller
posted October 06, 2015 02:01 PM
Edited by MadDemiurg at 16:01, 06 Oct 2015.

I probably have a different opinion than most on this matter. Each heroes had their ups and downs for me and I don't share h4 or h6 hate.

H3
+Good flashed out mechanics
+Visual design
+While simple mechanically, factions still feel pretty diverse
-A bit simplistic (no racial abilities apart from necromancy, same skills for everyone, not that many creature abilities)

Overall, If h3 clone with better graphics came out I doubt I would like it now, even though it was fun in its time.

H4
Didin't play much (not because I hated it, just was busy with other stuff)
+Hero classes
+/- Some inovative ideas (alternative creatures, creatures moving without heroes, heroes participating in battle). All have arguments both for and against them.

H5
+Racial skills
+Unique racial perks in general skills
+Alternative upgrades
+Sim turns
-Too random. H3 also suffers from it, but with added perk trees leveling is even more random here.
-Cartoonish style
-Might or Magic heroes dictated by town

Overall this is probably my favorite even though I HATE the randomness

H6
I think they had some good ideas here and it does not deserve all the hate it gets, even though it's quite flawed

+Controlled skill selection, no random
+No randomness in spells either
+Creature ability design (most feel unique, especially champions)
+Less resource types (I don't feel having 6 resources does any good apart from making getting the ones you need more luck dependant)
+Area of Control
+Town conversion
-Bugs
-Racial abilities feel more bland compared to H5
-Skill tree homgenized, most heroes feel the same
-As spells are turned into skills, very few spells per hero and bad spell diversity
-Powerful healers available for most factions make creeping dull and repetitive

H7
+Skill wheel with no randomness and quite interesting perks compared to H6. Still not on H5 level (no racial perks in general trees)
+Alternative creature types, albeit only for champions (probably did not have resources for more)
+Flanking and cover, even though there are problems with current implementation
-Bugs bugs bugs
-Too many spell schools for no good reason, too much randomness in spells even with prefered school mechanics. Would prefer to be able to get the spells I need. Maybe add an option to buy spells you didn't get from your preferred schools for some substantial amount?
-Even though there are 3 more schools compared to h5 spells somehow feel less diverse
-Back to 6 resources
-Back to no town conversion
-Creature abilities less interesting than in H6
-Back to cartoonish style
-Half functioning sim turns

Ideal heroes for me would have:

+Interesting racial skills
+Skill trees witout random leveling and with unique racial perks
+Researchable spells, where you buy the spells you need, with many spells per level. There might be some unique spells that can be only found on the map by clearing dragon utopia and the like, but core spells should be always available.
+Either alternative creature upgrades or alternative creatures
+More serious visual design
+Town conversion, area of control, less resource types
+No healers and low level resurrection spells
+Interesting creature ability design like h6
+Fully functional sim turns
+Few bugs

That's just by combining features of previous games (apart from spell learning mechanics, which I didn't like in any of the previous implementations), You can come up with plenty of ideas for new features of course.

To me, h7 has the potential to become good if the bugs and performance issues are reolved, creatures are made more diverse by introducing additional abilities, some race specific perks are added here and there and more spells with more controll over which ones you get are introduced. It would still have issues which are not solvable with pathches and expansions, but it would be good. Currently it's a trainwreck primarlily due to bugs.

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted October 06, 2015 03:43 PM
Edited by Kayna at 15:48, 06 Oct 2015.

I don't see that much potential in H7 to be honest. People say H6 sucked, well, you won't find any cool creature abilities like the Kirin mist in Heroes 7. Heroes 7 suffers from a massive lack of activated creature abilities and just cool features all around. Excuse me, but being "undead" or "living" or "construct" and being "immune to fire" and "Immune to water" isn't what I consider a fun creature ability.

Heroes 6 offers more strategy and more fun during combat. If Heroes 7 made me realize something, it's how Blue Hole had a god damn vision.

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PROJ
PROJ


Known Hero
posted October 06, 2015 03:57 PM

Kayna said:
I don't see that much potential in H7 to be honest. People say H6 sucked, well, you won't find any cool creature abilities like the Kirin mist in Heroes 7. Heroes 7 suffers from a massive lack of activated creature abilities and just cool features all around. Excuse me, but being "undead" or "living" or "construct" and being "immune to fire" and "Immune to water" isn't what I consider a fun creature ability.

Heroes 6 offers more strategy and more fun during combat.

I think the lack of creature abilities that really stand out and make gameplay more interesting is my biggest game mechanic gripe with the game.  H5 and H6 both were excellent in this regard, and even though it made learning everything take some time, I think it added a lot to the game.

That being said, saying there's no depth or potential in the mechanics of H7 is just silly.  The fact that cores, elites, and champions are more comparable has added a lot of depth to just basic combat since H3.  Flanking also adds a bit more to basic positioning in large fights.  TBS games don't necessarily need a snowload of bells and whistles to create engaging combat.

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Quique30
Quique30


Adventuring Hero
posted October 06, 2015 07:12 PM

Salamandre said:
Thats why the only way to collaborate, IMO, is to refer to the only secure source of seriousness, the competitive gaming.


From experience, that's not necessarily a secure source either. And that's because the competitive gamer adapts to and exploits what is already there, but may not have any clue of what is needed for the game to improve.

I think it's a mistake to be "too" permeable to opinions if, as a developer, you don't have a very clear and defined vision of the game you're making (I consider it a kind of art, wheter people end up loving or hating the result). So if you invite collaborators, they need to atune to that vision and not the other way around.

As for MMH7, I have hopes for its future. I mean, I was witness to the horrible debacle that was MMH6 launch and I think it ended up being an enjoyable game. The devs repetedely stated that launch was only the beginning.

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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted October 06, 2015 07:17 PM

MMH6 is not a heroes game, it is some sort of crap. MMH7 is not far from that in its current state. If they waste 1-2 patches to only fix crashes they will come up with a statement they are moving to expansion production and all those imbalances, weird design decisions and so on will be left in the game.

speaking of which I want to add another strange point


* neutral monsters` number of stacks doesn`t change depending on hero army.

Before every creature had a power rating so there was a formula based on number of creatures in the neutral army and that in the hero. Also level of hero added some percentages to one side of the equation regardless of hero skills.

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
King of the ogres
posted October 07, 2015 08:20 PM
Edited by sirironfist at 20:24, 07 Oct 2015.

You thought the Black Dragons were lousy scaled? Have a look at this guy and take a guess how many hp he has. 500 maybe? Or 400, at least 300? No, a whole 32!


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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
posted October 07, 2015 08:56 PM

Truly a part of the insidious and bloodthirsty demon kind!
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.

ANTUDO

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted October 07, 2015 08:57 PM

Neraus said:
Truly a part of the insidious and bloodthirsty demon kind!

With blue spikes? Definitely.

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
King of the ogres
posted October 07, 2015 09:22 PM

Pawek_13 said:
Neraus said:
Truly a part of the insidious and bloodthirsty demon kind!

With blue spikes? Definitely.


It's not blue actually, that's just my mouse cursor on the creature.

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