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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Talking about Christianity
Thread: Talking about Christianity This thread is 60 pages long: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10 20 30 40 50 60 · «PREV / NEXT»
Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted November 30, 2015 06:50 PM
Edited by Elodin at 18:54, 30 Nov 2015.

@ JJ

God told Adam that sin kills.  Adam chose to sin.  Adam died spiritually because he chose to sin.  

Adam sinned by choice, knowing what he did was wrong.  He was not deceived but sinned willfully.

Quote:
1Tim 2:
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.



Yes, God knew what would happen, he warned Adam of the consequences of sin but he did not prevent Adam from sinning.  Adam was created as an adult male capable of making choices. He sinned knowing he was sinning, and suffered consequences.  He was not a toddler who did not know jumping off a cliff would have consequences.

God did not prevent Adam from sinning but he did plan for a way for salvation so that Adam would not have to suffer eternal consequences for his sin.

Adam was kicked out of Paradise to prevent him from forever living in a sinful, spiritually dead state of being.

Ever since Satan's rebellion against God there have been two kingdoms.  The kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan.  Those who submit to God are in his kingdom. Those who are not in submission to God are in the kingdom of the rebel Satan.

The Bible refers to this in numerous places and in numerous places says that the universe itself is God's. Satan is the god of rebels, not ruler of the physical earth.

Quote:

Psalm 24King James Version (KJV)

24 The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

2 Corinthians 4:

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Satan is also called the prince of the power of the air in Ephesians 2:2 and the ruler of this world in John 12:31. Satan is not the rightful ruler of man, God is.  But the devil is effectively the ruler of those who do not walk in the light of God.

But Jesus will only invite you to come to him, not force you to do so. SUBMIT to God or do not.  Your choice.

Quote:
Revelation 22:
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



____________
Revelation

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted November 30, 2015 07:29 PM

[quote name=Homer171
For start, i question you, what you think about christianity? Then you can ask me anything or 'throw your two cents' (that doesn't still save your soul tough )



I respect those who can find it in themselves to believe in something in today's world, be they Christian, Hindu, Taoist, Mormon, Muslim, Wiccan, or something else entirely, because I personally cannot. That said, I can't, don't and won't condone any of the unspeakable horrors committed in the name of a faith, any faith.

Though I had been christened, and so officially I'm a Roman Catholic, I've rapidly grown disillusioned with the idea of religion. The sum total of my experiences eroded any faith I could have had in a 'higher power'/'God'.

Usually, I call myself an agnostic when asked but only because nothing in my life has conclusively disproved the notions of one or more benevolent, but fallible 'Gods', or one or more omnipotent, yet malevolent 'Gods', among other things. Frankly, I'm even open to the possibility that my limited understanding of the world can't adequately judge the intention and/or impact of things that may potentially be caused by beings so much more powerful than myself that they defy attempts at perceiving, defining and conceptualizing them in a manner decipherable by humans. In which case, I and my opinion don't matter in the slightest anyway, so it is pointless to speculate.

Despite everything, I find myself occasionally engaging in flights of fancy philosophizing about the possibility and/or nature of an afterlife. I then tend to marvel at the sheer statistical improbability that a Universe such as ours even exists in the first place, never mind that a succession of life forms then proceeded to come into existence in said Universe. That all this had my consciousness - and so, in a manner of speaking, ME - develop as a side effect is, in my opinion, simply astounding. At this point, the odds are so astronomically small, that I can't in all honesty discount the possibility that sometime after, or for that matter, before, nay concurrent with my death, something similar will happen/has happened/is happening, this process eventually culminating in the creation of another consciousness that 'I' will then inhabit once again in some fashion. In fact, I can't refute that this has - potentially - already happened somewhere countless times, and I simply lack memories of it having happened.

From here, it is but a small leap in logic that for all 'I' know, 'I''m not even what I tend to think about as my 'self'. But if that's true, who, or for that matter, what am 'I'? It is possible, however unlikely, that what I currently perceive as 'me' is just a current, temporary iteration of the idea of 'me' that has no experiences ever having been anything other than 'me'.

From all this, it follows that - POTENTIALLY - every human being in existence who has ever lived/is currently alive/will be alive at some point in the future is an iteration of 'me' that I cannot/will not for the moment perceive as being 'me' In which case, notions such as 'life' and 'death' are ultimately meaningless, or so far beyond 'my' current understanding that they might as well be meaningless.

It is usually at this point where I conclude I will never be able to either confirm or deny all this, and proceed to bury myself in a book of my choice.
____________
Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 30, 2015 07:31 PM
Edited by fred79 at 19:41, 30 Nov 2015.

you know what always got me about the snake that tempted adam and eve? god's punishment for it was "you will crawl on your belly". what kind of snow is that? man forced to toil fields and work to provide his food, women given pain during childbirth(although they hadn't had any kids yet, to my knowledge, so that's kinda jumping the gun a little), and both of them would be susceptible to sickness and misery for eons.

the snake caused all the trouble, and god did nothing to the snake. the man and woman were mislead, and god punished them for it. why even let the snake in the garden in the first place, if god, in his infinite wisdom, would surely know that the snake would cause trouble for adam and eve?

why even create the snake in the first place? i mean, seriously? one that can corrupt, mislead, damn, etc, etc.

think about it: if you were a god, would YOU make something that could poison your creations? would YOU create something that could DAMN your creations to Hell for all eternity, unless they bent to your will? what kind of backwards logic is that? "i love you, but i'm going to allow horrible things to happen to you. i love you, but if you don't submit to me, you're going to Hell forever. because i love you."

religious: "god works in mysterious ways, fred."

that statement is a cop-out, for those who are wondering. it avoids the truth, and answers nothing. if a god loves you, why would he force you through all kinds of hell just to be WORTHY of him? sounds egotistical, and more than that, sadistic.

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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
posted November 30, 2015 07:50 PM

Maybe the snake crawled in?

Actually the snake has been identified as Belial, one of the most important demons in Hell, so I don't think God would purposefully put him in, considering that he was part of that youth gang that tried to depose him.

It's not only that He works in mysterious ways, but also because He tends to let us deal with things ourselves, until we give proof once more of being complete idiots in need of guidance, and then He acts, either destroying the evildoers or by sending agents to us, for crying out loud He descended here to fix things up.
And that's what the apocalypse is, when mankind will demonstrate itself as so damn idiotic again God will just wreck everything up, and then we'll be free of evil.

The problem we face here on earth isn't evil itself, rather its propagation, but once there will be no children born after the end of times I don't think evil will find a way to propagate again.

Call it an extreme solution to an extreme problem.

And who knows what is waiting after the end of the world...

But anyway, people call the Genesis an allegorical work, in that case consider the snake our evil nature crawling inside our souls, whatever works for you.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.

ANTUDO

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 30, 2015 07:56 PM

it doesn't work for me, is my point. ANY being that allows(or causes) horrible things to happen to those he loves, is sadistical, plain and simple. there's no other logical explanation for that kind of behavior or treatment.

by religion's standards, you are forced to love something that allows(or even causes, some believe) torment to fall upon you. and if you do not love it, then you are damned to eternal torment at the hands of it's enemy. that's not love, in my book.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 30, 2015 08:39 PM

Neraus said:


But anyway, people call the Genesis an allegorical work, in that case consider the snake our evil nature crawling inside our souls, whatever works for you.
Would come from God.
The evil nature/failed experiment doesn't work - it's always the fault of the creator, just ask Doc Frankenstein.

All this silly blame Christian belief is heaping on us as a species - pretty sick, considering we are supposedly made in His image.

On second thought - he is quite probably made in ours. Explains a lot.

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Serafim
Serafim


Hired Hero
posted November 30, 2015 09:43 PM

2 points about religion and especially christianity:
First:
“Is there any point in public debate in a society where hardly anyone has been taught how to think, while millions have been taught what to think?”
― Peter Hitchens

Secondly:

Anne Lamott
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
― Anne Lamott

Or my version
"You can safely assume Christianity is fabricated and the bible is man made, when God/Yahweh hates all the people the people in the past hated."

And this goes for all Abrhamic religions.
Also, lets not forget the story of binding the isaac. A human sacrifice.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 30, 2015 10:25 PM

Serafim said:
And this goes for all Abrhamic religions.
Also, lets not forget the story of binding the isaac. A human sacrifice.



the old testament is so fraught with old-school violence, perversions, logical errors and inconsistencies as to be rendered moot. this is why the only thing i really focus on with christianity are the good things that jesus taught. even if they mostly don't apply, they're still a good base to start from in civilized society. the issue being, that society isn't as civilized as people claim it to be.

but love is important, and understanding as well.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
CONTINUITY IS POWER
posted December 01, 2015 12:11 AM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 00:17, 01 Dec 2015.

Depends on what you mean by civilized. I would say Romanians in the 1800's were more civilized than today, having nothing to do with religion.

And Joker, I sent you a small HCM.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted December 01, 2015 10:04 AM

JollyJoker said:
Neraus said:


But anyway, people call the Genesis an allegorical work, in that case consider the snake our evil nature crawling inside our souls, whatever works for you.
Would come from God.
The evil nature/failed experiment doesn't work - it's always the fault of the creator, just ask Doc Frankenstein.

All this silly blame Christian belief is heaping on us as a species - pretty sick, considering we are supposedly made in His image.

On second thought - he is quite probably made in ours. Explains a lot.


Of course, he is made in ours, the whole thing is so anthropomorphic, it practically shouts "human nature."


The actual thing is this, Abrahamic tradition is originally monist. There is this God with omnipotence and he rules over everything, but then comes the dualist Zoroastrian  influence, in Zoroastranism, the universe is a battlefield of two major forces, good and evil, it's a strong idea, it catches on, Satan helps them to explain why bad things happen. But the dualist cosmology of Zoroastranism is not fully compatible with monotheism, hence, in Abrahamic religions, God and Satan are never symmetrical powers as they were in their neighbor influence. So, for centuries, theologians keep working their ass off to explain things like "why does God allow evil to happen" or "why did God let Satan trick Adam" etc. Some of these questions have no answer, or at least not a satisfactory one, and eventually, it comes down to this:

"It is not our place and beyond our limited capacity to question God's will."

This is the answer you'll get from ordinary faithful people, too, most of the time, when there is no logical way to explain some of the conflicts or flaws in a religion. The problem with such a submission is this though, once you accept that God's thinking is beyond your ability to understand, anything goes. God can just be fooling with you, the prophets may be his version of a prank or you can indeed simply be an experiment subject. Now, you can't say things like "oh, no, he wouldn't do that" or "he wouldn't bother." You've lost your license to make such claims, when you confirmed that God's motives are beyond your mental capacity. So, practically, any argument about a god only makes sense if that god is explainable but then, it kind of spoils his charm, doesn't it.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 01, 2015 10:28 AM

If you really think about it: there is nothing there defining god as the good force and satan as the evil force - or is there? I mean, if A&E are supposed to be "god's creatures", the serpent is basically freeing them, and god reacts with ire.

Anyway, with me revisting BSG while working out - Adama makes an interesting speech at 2:00 onwards he makes a very valid point.

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 01, 2015 11:19 AM

Goog toughs everyone


I have often felt like we are failed experiment. Still God gives high values and hopes from us. What happened in the garden tells the fall of man, not God's. If you do something good and it ends up bad, does that make you bad aswell or failure, not necessary imo. God had no other opinion really than banish Adam and Eve from the garden. It was no accident that they eat from the tree. You can eat from any other tree in the garden but not from that one, if you do you surely will die. Now the responsibility has given to human, no God can be blamed. The fall was spiritual death like Elodin said. As human where no more righteousness in eyes of God his Holiness demanded judgement. Free will is given that we can think and make actions of our own but that does not justify bad actions as the God is Holy, Hes creations should be good too, if not they are enemy of God what has no false in Him to begin whit.

Why did not God destroy His creation in begin whit, if He's so Holy that everything needs to be perfect? Because of His grace. In His judgement, God gave a promise that a woman would gave a birth to one who will undo the betrayal of the serpent. The one, is the new Adam what we know as Jesus. Lived perfect life, no sin, filled the law of God, that everyone who beliaves in Him becomes righteousness in eyes of God. Jesus teached a lot what is Father alike. Here is one:


He said, "A certain man had two sons. The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of your property.' He divided his livelihood between them. Not many days after, the younger son gathered all of this together and traveled into a far country. There he wasted his property with riotous living. When he had spent all of it, there arose a severe famine in that country, and he began to be in need. He went and joined himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed pigs. He wanted to fill his belly with the husks that the pigs ate, but no one gave him any. But when he came to himself he said, 'How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough to spare, and I'm dying with hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and will tell him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight. I am no more worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired servants." He arose, and came to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight. I am no longer worthy to be called your son." But the father said to his servants, 'Bring out the best robe, and put it on him. Put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. Bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat, and celebrate for this, my son, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found.' They began to celebrate. "Now his elder son was in the field. As he came near to the house, he heard music and dancing. He called one of the servants to him, and asked what was going on. He said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and healthy. But he was angry, and would not go in. Therefore his father came out, and begged him. But he answered his father, 'Behold, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed a commandment of yours, but you never gave me a goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this, your son, came, who has devoured your living with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.' "He said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found.'" Luuk 15:11-32


You might not think God is loving and caring but we, His servants have experienced that He really is. It's not like we are forced to say that. It really is what we feel, trust and beliave. Until you experience it for yourself you can't agree on this 100% when you don't have experience of it. But He truly is, trust me
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
CONTINUITY IS POWER
posted December 01, 2015 11:25 AM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 11:55, 01 Dec 2015.

JollyJoker said:
If you really think about it: there is nothing there defining god as the good force and satan as the evil force - or is there? I mean, if A&E are supposed to be "god's creatures", the serpent is basically freeing them, and god reacts with ire.




The serpent showed man's desire to be like God, and man and woman's refusal to accept responsibility - this is what many have drawn out of Genesis, and I do not oppose this view. Meaning also, a consequence for actions, and a final consequence, death.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 01, 2015 12:16 PM

People, think scientifically. If an experiment "fails", then it's a failure from the perspective of the side who sets up the experiment only; that side is FULLY responsible for the failure, because that side set it up and cannot complain about the result.
Failure of an experiment controlled COMPLETELY by one side (and that controlling side is God), can never be blame on the RESULT. NEVER!

Now. Assuming God would have the (silly) notion we were a failed experiment and failure was our fault, and further assuming God gave us free will - why would we adopt his position that we are a failure? After all - we have free will. And to love thy neighbour, you have to love yourself first! How can you love thy neighbour when you think the whole human race is a failed experiment, evil and whatnot?

What some people are trying to sell is the notion that an all-powerful and all-knowing being created something independent of him, hoping the independents would willingly "turn to him".

So ask yourself a couple of questions: Why would god do that? What would he hope to gain, provided everything would work out as intended? Or, in other words, in which way would we ENRICH his existence? And, a decisive one: you'd expect God to give his best in order to "get the desired job done". Now, either it worked out as intended - then what does that say about God? Or it didn't work out as intended. And what does THAT say about God?

Maybe God didn't make his intentions clear to everyone - or if he did, maybe his creations lack the means to understand him?

And you know what the worst thing is? If all that bible stuff was true - Satan could easily tempt me by telling me, "hey, man, what does this guy think to just heap the blame for everything on his creations? He screwed up, didn't like what he got, and now it's your fault? Forget blame. Nothing of this is your fault - we gotta make the most of this life and squeeze every drop out of it" - and he would have me right there and then.
Because the Bible is doing an awful job when it comes to PR, for God is seemingly an old, grumpy tyrant who got old-age-mellowness at some point, letting his son suffer to make a feeble effort in righting things, before handing reign over to that guy - who just disappeared from the radar.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
CONTINUITY IS POWER
posted December 01, 2015 12:22 PM

I know I am avoiding the issue you present, Joker, but the worst thing for me is that the world is not all good, and no one, God or human, can change that realistically. If I was born in some country in Africa or a war torn zone I might have a different outlook on life, entirely, God or no God, religion or no religion.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 01, 2015 12:42 PM

The guilty feeling of the survivors. People who are relatively well off compared to others tend to feel guilty about that.

People have to realize that we get what WE make out of things. We are not to blame for having to fight for our survival initially - that's how it is (paradise; really?), and based on that, based on a very low level of existence compared with our actual one, we as a species have paid with a lot of blood to get where we are now - and we are still paying.
However, WE can change things, not tomorrow, not in a year, but history is showing that we are working on it - certainly teetering at the brink, the more options we have (and I don't doubt there won't be more situations like that, for gene technology and other things are as powerful tools as nuclear power), but really not having any alternative.
Think about how long dinosaurs ruled the world - until a meteor crashed into the Gulf of Mexico 65 mio years ago and reset the clock.
If we want to survive as a species we cannot rely on "God" caring for us - we have to make sure we are prepared to prevent such an occurence happening again.

Provocative formulated to give everyone something to happily hammer away at: In the absence of real, tangible "godly" help in order to manage our survival as a species, we have to strive to become god-like ourselves (as a species).

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
CONTINUITY IS POWER
posted December 01, 2015 01:13 PM

That is a logical approach. And one thing I agree with 100 % : human life has always been about struggle, first for survival and then for improvement. And there is joy in overcoming obstacles, not for the "prize" itself but for the journey.

That is why I think the hero's journey is so popular in ancient myths and in tales of all time.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 01, 2015 01:49 PM

Right. Reaching the end of a journey means that something comes to a closure, and then the story is told and no one wants that.

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 01, 2015 02:54 PM

JollyJoker said:
What counts is what you actually do. Your deeds are what you will be held accountable for - not any lip service.

That means - for me -: there shouldn't be a competition between different Christian "denominations", because it's bogus and bollocks: everyone has to decide for themselves how to LIVE as a Christian, because that is what faith should transfer into: a certain way of life. Not a debate about interpretations about God's word.




Dig this one up, because it so true. In Finland, town where I live we have many churches, Lutheran, Babtist, Pentecostal, Metodist, Free-congregation, for name the few. I have visited in all of them and I have atleast one friend in each of them. Now this is nothing odd about but 50 years ago Lutheran church would not accept any of those charismatic churches and pentecostals said lutherans aren't any real christians. This has changed quite bit over the years, still not perfect but we are coming out of the 'dark ages'


Few years ago in Pentecostal church, i saw somebody that i didn't know and went to talk to him. Found out he was Catholic and just visiting here. We went to coffee after and talked about life and religion. Walked whit him, to his hotel and we had good time, no talk who or what is correct. Of course we need all these different churches for our views but we should really respect each others. Great bible verse: By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13:35
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
posted December 01, 2015 03:18 PM
Edited by Neraus at 16:41, 01 Dec 2015.

I had this lying on there and then I forgot about this:
artu said:
JollyJoker said:
Neraus said:


But anyway, people call the Genesis an allegorical work, in that case consider the snake our evil nature crawling inside our souls, whatever works for you.
Would come from God.
The evil nature/failed experiment doesn't work - it's always the fault of the creator, just ask Doc Frankenstein.

All this silly blame Christian belief is heaping on us as a species - pretty sick, considering we are supposedly made in His image.

On second thought - he is quite probably made in ours. Explains a lot.


Of course, he is made in ours, the whole thing is so anthropomorphic, it practically shouts "human nature."


The actual thing is this, Abrahamic tradition is originally monist. There is this God with omnipotence and he rules over everything, but then comes the dualist Zoroastrian  influence, in Zoroastranism, the universe is a battlefield of two major forces, good and evil, it's a strong idea, it catches on, Satan helps them to explain why bad things happen. But the dualist cosmology of Zoroastranism is not fully compatible with monotheism, hence, in Abrahamic religions, God and Satan are never symmetrical powers as they were in their neighbor influence. So, for centuries, theologians keep working their ass off to explain things like "why does God allow evil to happen" or "why did God let Satan trick Adam" etc. Some of these questions have no answer, or at least not a satisfactory one, and eventually, it comes down to this:

"It is not our place and beyond our limited capacity to question God's will."

This is the answer you'll get from ordinary faithful people, too, most of the time, when there is no logical way to explain some of the conflicts or flaws in a religion. The problem with such a submission is this though, once you accept that God's thinking is beyond your ability to understand, anything goes. God can just be fooling with you, the prophets may be his version of a prank or you can indeed simply be an experiment subject. Now, you can't say things like "oh, no, he wouldn't do that" or "he wouldn't bother." You've lost your license to make such claims, when you confirmed that God's motives are beyond your mental capacity. So, practically, any argument about a god only makes sense if that god is explainable but then, it kind of spoils his charm, doesn't it.


There was an heresy, actually a group of heresies, who stated that either Satan was equal to God or that the God of the Old Testament actually was the evil god and the one from the New Testament was the true God.

As I already said, and I stand by this:

I think God won't act because He knows that either way we won't learn anything and left us to better ourselves, because still we've introduced the wild instinct in us and now we need to purify ourselves, He chose not to interfere with man at the exception of cases of exaggerated shows of disobedience, and His coherency shows when in times like this He doesn't act, there are still faithful in this world, and He won't destroy it until there are no faithful left.

Just like in Sodom and Gomorrah, there was only one pious family, they were spared, but since the inhabitants of the city were so widespread against the law of God they had to be destroyed.

The flood has a similar logic, only one family still was faithful to God, and as such they were spared from the disaster.

And so on...

Evil is allowed because we won't reject it, the devil has power because we allow him to hold power over us, but if humanity didn't succumb to its animal instincts and maintained a pure heart the devil would stay in the hell he belongs to, but alas, man had to fall for the greatest miracle to happen anyway.

If God gave Adam the freedom to choose why would He force Adam not to eat once the man was about to eat the fruit? That is the question, rather than: Why did God allow satan to trick Adam.

After all, the command was clear, the authority was well established, who could contradict God? Only some beings with a pride bigger than the skies, and in that case we have two, with such a pride, satan and Adam, after all why eat the fruit if you didn't want to elevate yourself above God?

The fault in the reasoning of saying that God created evil because we had it embedded in us is faulty, our evil is a product of free will, and freely we can decide what to do, if God were a control freak like you say, requesting men to submit to him why grant free will at all, why not have automatons and get it over with? There would be no evil if we were automatons after all, since, no one could say what's right or wrong.

If God were to obligate us to think in a certain way then yes, the fault would lie within Him, but since we can choose no, the fault lies with us, since this is the price of freedom.

JollyJoker said:
Provocative formulated to give everyone something to happily hammer away at: In the absence of real, tangible "godly" help in order to manage our survival as a species, we have to strive to become god-like ourselves (as a species).



Hey, Adam, it's Eve, the serpent told me that the fruit will make us like God, wanna eat it?

JollyJoker said:
People, think scientifically. If an experiment "fails", then it's a failure from the perspective of the side who sets up the experiment only; that side is FULLY responsible for the failure, because that side set it up and cannot complain about the result.
Failure of an experiment controlled COMPLETELY by one side (and that controlling side is God), can never be blame on the RESULT. NEVER!

Now. Assuming God would have the (silly) notion we were a failed experiment and failure was our fault, and further assuming God gave us free will - why would we adopt his position that we are a failure? After all - we have free will. And to love thy neighbour, you have to love yourself first! How can you love thy neighbour when you think the whole human race is a failed experiment, evil and whatnot?



You are assuming that an experiment was done through our mentality and capacities, but no one has ever managed to make a fully independent intelligence, you can't predict what an independent entity will do, and since it's independent it could renounce your control, so who's to blame? And what is the blame then? Creating an entity independent from you?
Then what, should He have enslaved us? Or made us completely mindless capable of caring only of our instincts? At that point, if you had the possibility to have independent though you'd nag to no end because "God is a meanie that won't let me play games", and this is trivializing the question. In no way has He referred to us as failed experiments, rather He called us His children, if anything, you're the one saying we're a failed experiment, because we're just saying that we have our faults, like every individual in the world.
Humanity isn't evil per-se, it simply has the capacity to do evil, but is not evil by nature.

JollyJoker said:

So ask yourself a couple of questions: Why would god do that? What would he hope to gain, provided everything would work out as intended? Or, in other words, in which way would we ENRICH his existence? And, a decisive one: you'd expect God to give his best in order to "get the desired job done". Now, either it worked out as intended - then what does that say about God? Or it didn't work out as intended. And what does THAT say about God?

Maybe God didn't make his intentions clear to everyone - or if he did, maybe his creations lack the means to understand him?

And you know what the worst thing is? If all that bible stuff was true - Satan could easily tempt me by telling me, "hey, man, what does this guy think to just heap the blame for everything on his creations? He screwed up, didn't like what he got, and now it's your fault? Forget blame. Nothing of this is your fault - we gotta make the most of this life and squeeze every drop out of it" - and he would have me right there and then.
Because the Bible is doing an awful job when it comes to PR, for God is seemingly an old, grumpy tyrant who got old-age-mellowness at some point, letting his son suffer to make a feeble effort in righting things, before handing reign over to that guy - who just disappeared from the radar.


Who needs PR when you have the truth, at that point the side who wins will be the one who gives you warmer feelings, not the true stuff. It's like a statist vs a demagogue, the statist, not knowing the arts of rhetoric will be crushed, and yet he would have helped his country far better than the demagogue.

And then, if everything went as the Bible said today, but it was written in a far more friendly way, even with omitted facts, and you got to discover them later, how would you feel?

Is it so hard to accept your faults? One of the reason God incarnated Himself was to show us that even if faulty we are able to elevate ourselves and reach what a human is meant to be, and by the way, God didn't suddenly become mellow, ever heard of the Apocalypse? Or the prophecies regarding the three days of darkness? God is merciful but just, and when there is justice to deliver immediately He will dispatch the offenders. Everything was made perfectly already, humans in their body and essence are perfect, but there is an element of randomness which is their personality, but apart from that the universe is in a perfect equilibrium, or do you see the laws of physics violated every now and then? Or by chance gaps in reality, or whatever things inimaginable due to not living in an imperfect universe.

We didn't lack the means, and we certainly don't lack them now, but we have a tendency to deaf ourselves, because we are this prideful. The intentions of God are clear at the exception of the reason of creation, but for everything else it's clear, He wants His creations to return to Him, evil to be defeated and finally fix the mess that others did in His perfect universe.

And by the way, we weren't created to enrich anything, for that matter, nobody knows why we exist, you can say the how, either through science or faith, but you'll never know the true reason the universe exists. The only thing that we can say is that God made the universe for love, and a myriad of reasons that we don't know, and nobody will ever know.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.

ANTUDO

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