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| Thread: Jedi rule of no attachment + having kids? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 29, 2015 01:31 PM |
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Neraus said:
And besides, if there wasn't a mass genocide of Jedi before the prequels is thanks to there being only two Siths at a time, the Jedi were convinced of having exterminated them all for a reason. 
Aren't we talking about the movies though? As I understand the expanded universe isn't canon anymore. As is the Manichean concept of the force to be honest...
I am not sure how far this is (still) canon, but the "Rule of Two" (which is quoted in the movies) stems from the events that led to the formation of the Republic that "stood for a thousand generations" (or a thousand years). Before that, the Sith were slaughtering eachother to further their own interests and were never able to plot against the galaxy as a whole. It was a Sith scheme which killed all but two of the Sith (one of course being one who designed the scheme) during the final battle against the Sith. I am not sure if that battle is canon, too.
By the way, it's quite cocky by the Jedi when they're talking about the prophecy and that they assume Anakin is going to bring balance to the Force. Bringing balance means something is unbalanced and even though the Dark Side is gaining influence, for those "thousand generations", the Light Side ruled rather supreme and uncontested. Just exactly which way did the Jedi expect that pendulum to swing?
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Drakon-deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 29, 2015 01:32 PM |
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Dense maybe. But I dislike the Jedi code and them in the prequels, except Qui Gon Jinn. And the films are canon to me, while other sources like games, comics and shows make sure to push the agenda of having bland good jedi and evil sith.
Great point Maurice. Balance means just that... and not that one side has to destroy the other, namely Light destroying Dark or vice versa and having balance on one side.
Vader and Palpatine are the bad guys, but more because the script says so. Monarchs and emperors aren't necessarily nazi-like. And of course, passion is not inherently evil. Neither is fear. I see the difference between those two and bloodlust and terror.
And the Jedi of the Republic were indeed cocky and that was their downfall. Luke was far more humble despite becoming very powerful. And he and his father defeated the Emperor because it had to be a happy ending. 
I prefer the Skywalkers and Qui-Gon to Yoda and Ben Kenobi.
And Darth Plagueis too, I guess, even if they never bothered to expand on him much, other than being the Sith Expert Resurrection caster.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 29, 2015 02:03 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 14:14, 29 Dec 2015.
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@Maurice:
The canon explaination for the Rule of Two is pretty much the same. In the final episode of "The Clone Wars" Yoda visits Moraband (in EU called Korriban,) where he meets with ghost of Darth Bane (who was performed by Mark Hamill ) and there he explains to Yoda why he created it.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 29, 2015 02:05 PM |
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It was good in ep1-3 that they give us this mind game 'what is really good' and what is not. While the universe clearly draws Jedies as the goodfellas, there are things what makes them questionable still. Could sum this up whit Palpatines words to Yoda: Your arrogance blinds you.. Exactly. While their intensions are good, their methoids may not. Reminds me of one goverment in our world.
All who have power are afraid to lose it. -Palpatine
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 29, 2015 02:09 PM |
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The Jedi were actually afraid of losing Anakin to the dark side...and so they did.
Now, what I understand from all this is that yes, methods and intentions are different, and politics, at least the Republic that the Jedi were part of, was indeed neither good nor evil, and in order to have the Sith as objectively negative, they had the "Reich" that was the Galactic Empire.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 29, 2015 03:11 PM |
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Machiavellian is probably the best way to describe the sith. There is nothing wrong with using passion in battle but they are conditioned to be backstabbing b@stards, even against their own master. Ruthless and more than willing to step on corpses to further their own ambition. This is true regardless of the source. So essentially, the sith are the profile of the ideal businessman ^^
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 29, 2015 03:24 PM |
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the story begins with darth sidious organizing the invasion of Naboo in order to ultimately being elected supreme chancelor and you have doubts about him being evil?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 29, 2015 05:36 PM |
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Elvin said:
Machiavellian is probably the best way to describe the sith. There is nothing wrong with using passion in battle but they are conditioned to be backstabbing b@stards, even against their own master. Ruthless and more than willing to step on corpses to further their own ambition. This is true regardless of the source. So essentially, the sith are the profile of the ideal businessman ^^
Yes, and politician. 
But the backstabbing part is the one thing I'd remove, as well as the whole "not loving one person" part from the jedi, but they're both like religious cults... Jedi are more monk-like, Sith are a lot more Western movie villains...as in, shoot first, ask questions never
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted December 29, 2015 06:09 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 19:58, 29 Dec 2015.
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The Jedi most closely resemble Taoism in the real world. The two main goals of Taoism are to achieve balance and to exist in harmony with nature. The second major source of the Jedi Way is Buddhism, specifically Zen. As with most forms of Buddhism, Zen preaches “non-attachment,” the letting go of emotional bonds to people, places and things. The ultimate goal is to reach a selfless state of dispassionate compassion for all living things. They care for everything, which in a way makes it look like they care about nothing. Like the Jedi knights, Buddhist monks are ascetic and celibate.
It is easy to see how most Star Wars fans don't find the Jedi way appealing. To care for all things without becoming attached to them seems impossible. To be ascetic in a world bursting with pleasures and gadgets and electronics? Quite an achievement. Compared to the way of Sith were you use your newly gained powers for your own benefit - you do as you please and you take what you want - it resonates vastly more.
For me the Jedi will always be the good guys.  Long live Buddhism ;P
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 29, 2015 06:23 PM |
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Well, good is a POV. To me, not all Jedi are good, no matter how peaceful their code is. So, there.
If anything, the Jedi at their basics are like space Buddhists, and Sith are like space Crusaders, in a very inaccurate and for the lolz way of saying
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 29, 2015 06:47 PM |
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I think the typical moral pulls that a person encounters in their life are much stronger for somebody with the Force compared to somebody that doesn't have it. Although the theme hasn't been developed in Star Wars movies, it reminds me of X-Men and the Brotherhood in Marvel. Between mutants and the much weaker homo-sapiens.
You have the Force. You have telekinetic powers, but far more importantly you're a mystic that senses thoughts and feelings, including events that take place thousands of light years from you. You have glimpses of the future and moments of clairvoyance towards the past. You can literally control people's actions and manipulate their thoughts. You have powers of thought & matter in every area. The advantages are enormous. You have all of that power, and it all tells the person, "I'm meant to rule". That's what the Sith are. The path of least resistance. They have might, and they use it. The Jedi have a lifestyle that is counter-intuitive to the power they possess, which is why Yoda calls the Dark Side easier, but not stronger.
Jedi philosophy basically follows the same logic that is used in every historical major world religion, as well as in contemporary secular psychology. It's the idea that if you do the bare minimum in order to control a temptation/passion, then it isn't going to be sufficient, and you'll lose. You have to employ excess measures in order to maintain a routine/pattern/habit/lifestyle. So in the case of the Jedi, they have codes such as celibacy, strong requirements towards regulating emotion, etc. It's all designed to control the enormous temptations/passion that come with the power that they possess as Jedi.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 29, 2015 06:59 PM |
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That's a great way of looking at it too, although even without the X-Men analogy. It's clear that fewer humans follow the true religious paths, many just crave other things, like wealth, passion, power... but that's going too off topic.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 29, 2015 08:38 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Well, good is a POV. To me, not all Jedi are good, no matter how peaceful their code is. So, there.
there may also be the fact that palpatine exerted some influence on them in the prequels. doesn't help to make the best choices.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 29, 2015 08:56 PM |
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Well, Qui-Gon believed that Anakin could be good, the others more or less tried to control him so he didn't get much power... while the Chancellor's power and influence was growing.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 29, 2015 10:26 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
If something similar has happened in real life before, then it's not unrealistic.
blizzardboy said:
artu said:
My son's landlord was constantly raising the rent, so I threw him off the balcony.
Artu have you ever been inside a Turkish prison?
Lol, that's a cheap shot.
No. But I was held in a police station jail a couple of hours for public drinking back when I was 19 or something. I remember the guys sitting next to me were making too much noise, so "the guard" came in, slapped all of us in the back of our necks and told us to shut up or else! Then, I wanted to use the WC and when they let me, there was like a 3-4 cm layer of urine on the floor. It stunk real bad.
And finally two guys disguised as stormtroopers and a wookie snatched us out of there.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted December 29, 2015 10:34 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 22:34, 29 Dec 2015.
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artu said:
And finally two guys disguised as stormtroopers and a wookie snatched us out of there.
I take it you were sitting like this too?
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 29, 2015 11:08 PM |
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Gryphs said:
artu said:
And finally two guys disguised as stormtroopers and a wookie snatched us out of there.
I take it you were sitting like this too?
It's not about the position in which you were sitting, it's about the hairstyle you were wearing. 
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 29, 2015 11:12 PM |
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Actually, all things considered, if you looked at some of the critically acclaimed star wars side stories in the Knights of the Old Republic series, you would see quite a few instances were the Jedi Order can in no way be defined as a morally good entity.
a) Brainwashing/erasing the memories of a former sithlord in order to make him become light-sided, then acting as if they do not know who he is and steering him down all the right directions
b) Forbidding their own from love while openly praising Revan for his return to the light side with Bastila at his side
b.2) Through their arrogance damning billions to die in multiple massacres during the wars, causing a schism within the order (yes, some of them join the war effort and it's not against the sith, no good vs bad dichotomy)
c) Deafening and exiling force-sensitive to the Force, which equates to zombifying/erasing the soul of the involved.
I guess they tried to show that with good-will and trying to maintain harmony and balance, you are prone to become self-righteous, arrogant, pompous prick with no recollection of yourself being one.
As much as some like to ignore the non-movie ex-canon stories, some of them surprisingly supplement the movies in ways more than one and further accentuate that everything in that universe is much more morally gray (heck, they even have awesome grey jedi in jolee bindo, force bless his lightsaber).
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 29, 2015 11:26 PM |
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If you believe Jedi are good, and/or if you want to take games into account, fair enough. Just accept that I don't agree with some that Jedi = good and Sith = evil, never absolutely.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted December 30, 2015 12:17 PM |
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Actually, now that I think of it:
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"
So done, if you think the Jedi are good and the Siths are evil then you're a Sith, and so you're evil.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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