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Heroes Community > MapHaven Guild > Thread: Let's Play: ~Metataxer's Revenge~
Thread: Let's Play: ~Metataxer's Revenge~ This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
Nikos
Nikos


Adventuring Hero
posted April 04, 2016 09:54 PM

Talking about AI's poor battle playing, I think it's obvious that the badge of courage, that grants mind spell immunity, gives mapmakers the ability to counterpoise AI's poor playing and make battles more challenging. This immunity is considered a bug, but I think that if the game designers had known about the excellent maps (Metataxer's Revenge included of course ) later created, they would have added this property themselves.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 04, 2016 10:04 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 22:17, 04 Apr 2016.

Going to Era and scripts is also a possibility for improving AI behavior, battles diversity and such. For example, with Era you can have an AI hero in battle with 7 stacks of same creature, while in SoD he will combine them thus ruin all planned strategy. Or taking a spell back via a quest, or prohibit collecting a special artifact from defeated hero, etc.

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Nikos
Nikos


Adventuring Hero
posted April 06, 2016 10:56 AM

Hi. Undeniably ERA offers so much customisation that it makes me wonder each time I read a related thread. It's really wonderful! I haven't started playing ERA because it feels to me like a brand new game and I don't think I will ever be able to cope with it.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 06, 2016 12:56 PM

This walkthrough is made with Era, if you didn't notice and is 100% accurate to original game.

Era is SoD 100% which can handle additional mods. In this case he plays with all interface mods. Then if you want to customize armies on heroes, this means only 1 script, which will not change their behavior or battle mechanics, just how the troops are positioned.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 06, 2016 01:16 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 13:27, 06 Apr 2016.

Salamandre said:
People often complain that AI is not enough effective but if it was optimally coded, there would be no way for such exploits and, reduced to simple strength difference, battles would be boring.

This. Multiplayer often reduces the final fights to a game of wait to see who will cast Slow/Haste first and what will be the consequences of the counter spell. Not that it doesn't require skill but time has reduced it to optimal path that is always the same and serves one battle only.

Biobob said:
Also, wandering creature stacks (and neutral creatures in general) become too weak after a while, and only serve as XP farms and decoration...

There is a script in WoG called "Karmic Battles". While in itself it can be devastating in a map like yours, it may hold one solution to this problem.

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Nikos
Nikos


Adventuring Hero
posted April 06, 2016 02:17 PM
Edited by Nikos at 14:20, 06 Apr 2016.

Salamandre said:
This walkthrough is made with Era, if you didn't notice and is 100% accurate to original game.

Era is SoD 100% which can handle additional mods. In this case he plays with all interface mods. Then if you want to customize armies on heroes, this means only 1 script, which will not change their behavior or battle mechanics, just how the troops are positioned.


Thanks for your reply. Yes, I know. I was referring to other WOG+ERA maps. For instance I would like to play two of your great maps, that is The Empire of the World III (because I loved the first two stories) and Alexander the Great (because I am Greek) and I think that I won't know what to do. When I first discovered WOG, there was a map where I should demolish a town in order to burn the nearby trees and create a passage.

As for ERA, I had already been using Baratorch's HD Mode when I discover ERA and I didn't want to change. Later I found out that they can work together and I downloaded some ERA modes, so I just have to start using them combined.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 06, 2016 02:21 PM

Yeah, better start with interfaces modes, as those showing additional spells, the hp needed for hypnotize/resurrect, monsters slip on map, seer quests messages, then you will naturally try maps too, later. Tew3 and Alexander are very close to original mechanics, they only allow experience system.
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Era II mods and utilities

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Star_King
Star_King


Known Hero
posted April 06, 2016 07:24 PM

Nikos said:
Talking about AI's poor battle playing, I think it's obvious that the badge of courage, that grants mind spell immunity, gives mapmakers the ability to counterpoise AI's poor playing and make battles more challenging. This immunity is considered a bug, but I think that if the game designers had known about the excellent maps (Metataxer's Revenge included of course ) later created, they would have added this property themselves.


That wiki's reasoning for Badge of Courage mind spell immunity for being a bug is really bad. It works that way because Berserk is an targeted area spell, not a typical targeting spell. Pendant of Dispassion should work the same way. You can't really accidentally put something like that in - it's clearly intentional and not a bug.

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted April 06, 2016 08:57 PM

I have some good news, some bad news, and some potentially good news.

First, the good news: a small update.

I found a way to save 1 day while heading to the Red Keymaster's tent. By my evaluation of the situation, it is not optimal by 1 day. To get there, Sepello must open a quest guard and 'One Eye' needs to be defeated for another quest guard. Furthermore, artifacts need to be exchanged to the hero heading there so 237 should be the earliest date to visit the Red Keymaster's tent. My original plan was to have Sepello head over there because it saved movement of another hero but it turns out I can simply send Brewster (Kyrre) after Sepello opens the quest guard tied to her and then Brewster can get to the Keymaster on 241 instead of 242 if I used Sepello. The power of Logistics Specialty.

This warranted a very small revision of 235 to avoid wasting Brewster's time.

I've also prepared updates until 241 but...

###

235 revised

Instead of refreshing SP, Brewster will simply visit the Library and Star Axis before heading towards the Red Keymaster tent... so I don't send her to Hells Kitchen at the end of 235. This saves 341 movement and allowed me to save the aforementioned day.


236

Army is on Vertigo, let Brewster have it and kill the Champions.



While you can try to kite the Champions, Slow+Bless works very well... 'Blind'.



...we now have the means to simplify these kinds of fights:



Don't be surprised if I don't show wandering creatures fight any longer unless they are non-trivial. After the fight, the Artifacts and army are given to LLLB.


Sepello and Brewster head to 'Tower One' (Vertigo will but only later).


Sepello forges on ahead and steps over the Swan Pond which is already visited. Meanwhile, Brewster stays at Tower One... waiting for Artifacts.


Now that LLLB has army and artifacts, we can bring them to Friend near 'Crissy Motel'. Bring our friendly Nomads to cut movement losses on Desert terrain.




Friend may refresh at the conveniently placed well before attacking 'One Eye'... not the wandering Cyclops, the hero.


For this fight, I will have to trick the hero into exhaustion. Because he's not very savvy in the 'Defensive spells' art, I will force his hand into casting 'Resurrection' over and over until he is drained. To do this, maximize your spell Power.


Block the gate as usual and we get hammered by Faerie Dragons. The enemy is immune to 'Blind' but everything else is fair game, naturally 'Forgetfulness' will be the spell of choice.



The first part of exhaustion is draining the Faerie Dragons. Summon 'Water Elementals' and resurrect the biggest Archangel stack when it's the Catapult's turn.



After 5 turns, the Faerie Dragons are useless The enemy doesn't bother exiting for summoned creatures...


Next, I need 'Haste' on the Water Elementals to be faster than Cyclops.


This lets me cast 'Meteor Shower' on the wait phase, AFTER the shooters have defended.



As a reply, 'One Eye' immediately casts 'Cure' as some of his creatures are wounded (not even to remove 'Forgetfulness' lol). Because shooters have already done their turn (defend), they can't kill me!


Because Water Elementals are now faster than the enemy shooters, we can simply cast 'Forgetulness' again before they move. Or during Catapult's turn if it's alive...


So here's the trick part here. Enemy starts with 670 SP, we start with 1160. Enemy Power is higher and 'Resurrection' regenerates more hit points than 'Meteor Shower' damages... BUT, if you hit 2 or even 3 creatures at once, you will clearly outspend the enemy without much difficulty. If enemy doesn't want to place its creatures in a suitable position, you can try luring them where you want with flying stacks.


Because of 'Resurrection'-freeze-bug, don't kill any enemy troops before enemy is exhausted.



Only when he is exhausted do we finish off the T-birds.


Enemy is now almost toothless, only remaining threat is Faerie Dragons who can fly over the walls.


So we will prepare their death to be swift. Reduce their defense with 'Disrupting Ray'.


There is probably an optimal level but I found that 30~40 defense was sufficient.


Next, we will make Elementals faster than the enemy... Haste+Slow. During 'Wait phase' once all enemy are defending, cast 'Resurrection' on Enchanters which will be tucked behind 2 stacks of Water Elementals.



Enchanters will be able to kill Faerie Dragons before they can kill us because of 'Slow'.


We get 3 turns of attack before the Faeries are able to kill 1 stack of Elementals. When this happens, raise one stack of Archangels.


From now on, we can simply cast 'Resurrection' on the fallen Archangels to complete the block. Summoning Water Elementals are not as good a choice because: 1) they cost more SP 2) they spawn anywhere... possibly too far to complete the block


Now the enemy is cooked.


Use Frenzy to kill the shooters and then whichever way you see fit to terminate the computer AI.



At the end, kite the surviving mobs, destroy turrets and resurrect everyone.



Good for one more level.


I bring in Vertigo who takes army (leaving Snow-friendly MGenie on Friend) and artifacts.


Also collect some troops that I left all around the place (really messy, could be improved!)



Finally, I bring the artifacts and part of the army to Brewster. Leave some useful artifacts on Vertigo, he might need them soon.


Brewster manages to walk to the Swan Pond before movement runs out! Thus we have 2 heroes in the area that leads to the Red Keymaster's tent.


Friend and LLLB may visit some stats boosters... I will probably have to revise this as it might be needed. The trade could certainly be done earlier when LLLB brings the army to Friend.



Friend stops in Vatikan (there is a Library here to visit) and will refresh SP during the night at the mage guild.


After refreshing SP (probably not needed, I will revise this), Vertigo heads to Beertent and boards a boat. Vertigo will have his first (real, well non-trivial) fight in a long time!



One last thing... dig a hole here with Mr. Fat. Sadly, the Grail is not here It's simply to not have to worry about the boat moving until I allow it to.



For this video, I edited out part of the exhaustion and cleanup phases as nobody really needs to see 10 minutes of the same thing...



###

Now for the bad news.

As you may know, I test ahead of updates to get a feel of where to send everybody and see how things evolve so that I can form a better plan. Once the Red Keymaster is visited, the Orange player will also be able to visit it. This releases 2 heroes which are initially bound by Red Border Guards. Unfortunately the second of these, 'ScytheScroge', found a way to get to a spot on the map and gets 'stuck'...hanging the game and I can't do anything. The turn is forever stuck on Orange player.

Sadly, it's a very powerful hero which I can't face in the open. So intercepting him is not a possibility.

The potentially good news

I think I found a way to force him into changing directions so that he doesn't get stuck. It only worked once so I don't want to scream Eureka! just yet. Sadly, this means I would have to re-do 237, 241 and maybe a part of 236. I wrote that I'd have to check if some things need to be revised in this update which may be warranted to un-stuck ScytheScroge. The next update will be pushed back quite a bit.

I can also try luring him with 'decoy' heroes which can retreat. Haven't tried that...

If all fails I will have to 'cheat' in order to kill him in the open by reducing his army.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 06, 2016 09:19 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 21:21, 06 Apr 2016.

Oh, but I can solve your situation, since you play on era. Just send the save and tell me which spot to move the AI hero. I can whatever you want me to do with him.

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted April 06, 2016 09:33 PM

Salamandre said:
Oh, but I can solve your situation, since you play on era. Just send the save and tell me which spot to move the AI hero. I can whatever you want me to do with him.


Haha, the thought had not even occurred to me. I will re-try my solution and if it works (it's a minor difference really but it had changed the hero's movement) then it'll be preferable I think.

If not, I will gratefully accept your wizardly help.

###

On a side note... do people want saves? The thought just occurred - not difficult to do.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 06, 2016 09:45 PM

Anyway, it would be interesting to have a save when game hangs, change AI color to yours and see what's wrong with that hero, can help later/.
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Era II mods and utilities

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted April 06, 2016 11:42 PM

Eureka! I found a consistent way in changing the problematic hero's path.


For the curious, here is a test-save where the game will hang if you press end turn as soon as it's ScytheScroge's turn to move.

Stuck ScytheScroge

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 06, 2016 11:59 PM

He is in the water in the save. Very strange I see nothing wrong, no thousands of creatures, no high stats. But from many games I played, once it starts is only a mater of time until it freezes for good. There is a problem with that hero.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 07, 2016 12:03 AM

I unequipped his captain hat, then game didn't freeze.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 07, 2016 12:28 AM

Salamandre said:
I unequipped his captain hat, then game didn't freeze.

Oh, an AI hero with a combined artifact freezes the game.
I already said this: I believe they didn't code the combined artifacts for AI. They appeared latter and they didn't actualized the AI to use them. I bet if someone gives a necromancer the Cloack from start game will not behave well, too.

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted April 07, 2016 12:42 AM

If I remember correctly, that does only apply to angelic alliance... Admirals hat on a hero should be no problem - also, I think ScytheScrooge only has a captains hat (like Salamandre posted)

Greets
____________
Maps
The Mapmaker's Thread

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Nikos
Nikos


Adventuring Hero
posted April 07, 2016 12:55 AM

RoseKavalier said:
Eureka! I found a consistent way in changing the problematic hero's path.


For the curious, here is a test-save where the game will hang if you press end turn as soon as it's ScytheScroge's turn to move.

Stuck ScytheScroge


Hi. I used your save file on Heroes III HD+. ScytheScroge normally disembarked next to the "Dragons Eye" Tower. I can send you my save file if you wish.

But when I tried on Heroes III HD or the original version he was stuck.

Really odd...

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted April 07, 2016 01:51 AM

It's definitely puzzling. Newer HD+ don't work with ERA, are you using an older one?

Anyhow, it's just a test save, I haven't progressed beyond 241 yet.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 07, 2016 03:38 AM

Biobob said:
If I remember correctly, that does only apply to angelic alliance... Admirals hat on a hero should be no problem - also, I think ScytheScrooge only has a captains hat (like Salamandre posted)

Greets

Ops.

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