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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3?
Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 28, 2016 02:30 PM

HorazVitae said:
We are gonna try to merge the best features of every HoMM, with maybe a bit of innovation from our side


For me, roughly is:

- Heroes II : Graphics & towns lineups.
- Heroes III : Map Editor.
- Heroes IV : Magic system.
- Heroes V : Skill system & creature abilities.

I believe this is solid foundation, good luck with the project, do not hesitate to contact programmers and graphical artists hanging around to join you, more useful than swarm of ideas.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 28, 2016 03:31 PM

HorazVitae said:

We are gonna try to merge the best features of every HoMM, with maybe a bit of innovation from our side...

Sorry, if I'm negative, but that sounds like Ubisoft and Heroes VII.

Between Heroes 2, Heroes 3 WoG, Heroes 4 and Heroes 5 5.5 there is every KNOWN HoMM you want to play.

If you don't have an original concept, a new take on the theme, a fresh twist that lets all known features shine in a new light, then, considering all the work the community has put into the brand over the DECADES, this would be quite probably a waste of time.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 28, 2016 03:37 PM

JollyJoker said:
Sorry, if I'm negative, but that sounds like Ubisoft and Heroes VII.


Except it's NOT Ubishmock and Kerozen VII. You're not being negative, that's plain insulting.
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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted July 28, 2016 03:48 PM

Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
Sorry, if I'm negative, but that sounds like Ubisoft and Heroes VII.


Except it's NOT Ubishmock and Kerozen VII. You're not being negative, that's plain insulting.
Yeah, it's rude to compare people with freaking Hitler.

My wishlist:

- NO ASHAN
- Gimme my Dungeon back
- ..and other proper HoMM towns based on themes rather than races
- Heroes 4 creature system (no upgrades and choices between different creatures), but with at least two additional creature classes
- Semi-towns (see link below under 'Towns and Creatures')
- More RPG-elements like heroes taking part in battles once again

For inspiration, this proposal made by Celestial Heavens back in 05 is extremely solid:

http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=355
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 28, 2016 04:43 PM

Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
Sorry, if I'm negative, but that sounds like Ubisoft and Heroes VII.


Except it's NOT Ubishmock and Kerozen VII. You're not being negative, that's plain insulting.

A silly idea is a silly idea, no matter who has it. Not to mention that I don't see any reason for praise in advance. It's not Triumph Studios either.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 28, 2016 05:00 PM

HorazVitae said:
Heya,

So a buddy of mine and myself decided to program


To tell you what I would like I would need to know first what you are capable of, thus we don't waste time speculating about impossible wishes. Care to link for us any of your hand-made games, projects or other stuff like that?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 28, 2016 05:03 PM

JollyJoker said:
A silly idea is a silly idea, no matter who has it.


I'm pretty sure h7 would have done well if the product turned out to be what initially advertised.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 28, 2016 05:11 PM

If you have followed my posts in this regard, I've made no secret of how appaled I was by the "best of" crap right from the start, saying that Frankensteins monster isn't going to be a good game without some serious new angle.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 28, 2016 05:42 PM
Edited by Galaad at 17:44, 28 Jul 2016.

And you know I believe the atmosphere of II with skill system of V and the content and possibilities of III would be an awesome game, you could expect a new angle if people like Triumph were in charge, but no need to reject a potentially better attempt because you were involved in a failed process.

If VII hadn't been 80% of freaking VI with ugly patchwork from older games developers never played, it would have done just fine, not revolutionary granted, but enjoyable at least (and also a way to introduce newcomers, with this "ultimate edition" or something).
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 28, 2016 10:06 PM

You don't listen what I say.
I rejected the attempt right away, because for me it was clear it wouldn't work, and I posted a lot about this here as well and years ago. A new game needs something unique; you can't just patch together a game from a number of other games, especially not when it's a game with such a delicate balance on one hand and such a massive combined content on the other.

Now, you can of course believe differently. But there is no reason to cry "offensive", just because I reject an idea that I find silly (or "bad") for reasons I've named years ago and more than once.
There is also none reason whatsoever to believe that something will be good just because it's NOT produced by Ubisoft.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 28, 2016 10:55 PM

No I listen to what you say but you are being too radical.

Ask yourself why the succession between II and III was successful and why IV failed. Why V gameplay-wise appeals and not VI.
IV and VI provided some new angles you're so fond of, and they are the most unpopular. VII beats all in unpopularity not because it is a "best of", but because it is -as you very well know- a failed attempt of a best of. And while personal preferences regarding features are arguable, there is a clear consensus regarding which games are better: the ones that are the most played through the years, aka III and V.

The only way to provide a new angle is by clearly understanding the basis and beyond, implementing "new" without knowing what you're doing doesn't work and you realistically couldn't expect this level from Ubilimbic. Truly embodying all the best parts with the most objective approach possible on the other hand should have been feasible, given the designers would give a damn about the franchise.
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fred79
fred79


Undefeatable Hero
The One and Only Undead Member
posted July 28, 2016 10:58 PM

i would like to see all of my ideas realized.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2016 12:23 AM

I'm with JJ on this one, it took me Heroes 7 to realize that some things have an expiration date on them. Reiterating over and over again is like cooking a splendid and tasty meal and eating it after freezing and heating it multiple times, it just doesn't taste the same and you'll start hating it. This ain't calling for turning the game into something entirely different, we'd always get towns and heroes and spells and whatnot, but there has to be sufficiently different mechanics and themes to appeal by novelty. In that sense, frankenstein monster best-offs seem to not work. I can't even play the old games like Heroes 2, 3 or 4 because for me their time has passed and I would definitely not want to play new games that are throwbacks to that time and nothing more. I need a spark of different.

Take Civilization for instance that changed massively over the years and kept gathering fanbase. Mere coincidence that it worked entirely in reverse from Heroes? The problem with this franchise is that it became too inward and stagnant, too cluttered with counter-intuitive and outright bad design decisions, and extremely limited in focus for innovation.

Little example here - I grew completely tired of the same goddamn races being used for every game. Haven, Sylvan, Stronghold, etc. with their same creatures and playstyles. It bores me out of my mind! That's why when I saw Sanctuary I hailed it as the best thing Heroes 6 delivered, because more than anything it was a breath of fresh air. Now, if there was a Heroes 8 with entirely new factions and creatures that we never saw before sprinkled with a little mythos, new spells and abilities and whatnot, it would be the thing that set it apart from all the rest and I would be sure to play it (even more so if it was good). It would also substantiate its reason for being, we all heard it when TotalBiscuit surmised that Heroes 7 doesn't even have a reason to exist, that's plenty to understand where the mistake lies and never repeat it again.

Someone around here said this franchise's future lies in the past. I'd say that's the reason it keeps on failing. If the devs weren't lazy, incompetent, without vision and overall clueless on top of being underfunded, then perhaps they'd stopped being gun shy and have the initiative and intuition to deliver something unique, fresh and good.


Also, unrelated to Heroes, but I figure it fits the thread: one of my English teachers who's also an author told us this during class - if you ever wanna do something, you don't brag or reveal it before it's done, because otherwise you'll lose the will to pull through. It's psychological. But good luck anyway. Don't end up like Q.
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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted July 29, 2016 12:37 AM
Edited by AnkVaati at 00:40, 29 Jul 2016.

Stevie said:
Take Civilization for instance that changed massively over the years and kept gathering fanbase. Mere coincidence that it worked entirely in reverse from Heroes? The problem with this franchise is that it became too inward and stagnant, too cluttered with counter-intuitive and outright bad design decisions, and extremely limited in focus for innovation.
If we leave the smaaaall detail that Ubi destroyed our universe and r*ped the ideas behind our towns and everything that made HoMM feel unique compared to other fantasy series behind, I'm kinda aligned to agree here. NWC were entirely right when they wanted H4 to be an "all new Heroes", it's just sad that they didn't have the time and resources to polish it properly because of 3DO and all that. And despite some design flaws (mainly Heroes just being portraits and a few cosmetic design mistakes), I kinda realized the beauty of their last product as I grew older. NWC had great and innovative plans for H5 as well which sadly never came into fruition. This is exactly why JVC changed the setting from continent to continent, from world to world after one or two games. If the NWC or faithful successors of their legacy would come back and do a proper Heroes game, it would have to be something else than "H3 minus the good parts plus a lot of junk we copied from other series", and we definitely need innovative new themes to build the factions around (which the NWC were hysterically good at, see the differences between the H3 and H4 towns for example).
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 29, 2016 12:55 AM

Stevie said:
I'm with JJ on this one, it took me Heroes 7 to realize that some things have an expiration date on them. Reiterating over and over again is like cooking a splendid and tasty meal and eating it after freezing and heating it multiple times, it just doesn't taste the same and you'll start hating it. [...] I can't even play the old games like Heroes 2, 3 or 4 because for me their time has passed and I would definitely not want to play new games that are throwbacks to that time and nothing more. I need a spark of different.


And I'm still playing III and V like everybody else. I am not against novelty, but it needs to be coherent with the franchise and respect its legacy, IMO. As for replacing factions, same issue. In simpler words, make it reminiscent of the original spirit and it's OK.

AnkVaati said:
NWC had great and innovative plans for H5 as well which sadly never came into fruition.


Yep, Ubi put NWC to the trashcan and gave us Ashan of Erwin instead.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2016 09:43 AM

If you make an independent "HoMM" game, you can start from scratch - anywhere, anyWHEN.

Personally, I could live with Ashan, however, I would more or less "destroy" (to rebuild) it.
If course the game should breathe "Heroes of Might and Magic" all over it, but you need something to build it upon.

Example: You might ask, whether it might be possible to include more than one hero with an army, and how. You may have slots for heroes as well, you may give heroes a Command skill allowing each hero to command only so many stacks (that is, only so many stacks benefit from the hero), but you may combine so many stacks and heroes to an "Army". (Disclaimer: this is just fooling around, not something I have spent time with to think through).

Anyway, something like that would change the game a lot. With a couple of heroes being part of an army you might want to have a look at their actions and how to limit them - you might introduce "spell preparation time" - and at this point you might start to realize that Heroes is a simple game in its core, and maybe the basic idea is unsound.

But you need something like that. A new twist. And that new twist will more or less "pick" the known mechanics automatically, because things tend to fall into place when you have a solid basic idea.

Which is exactly the problem with H7: there is nothing like that. What you have instead is a complication:
"We need to go with 7 spell schools."
Even though it was pointed out numerous time that this feature would force their hand and need a lot of attention to get it right, I'd go so far and say they ignored it, because the design of the skill system was atrocious with a view on that. H7 is a really badly designed game consisting of parts that don't fit. It's like someone took a couple of puzzle pieces and pressed them into a crude "fit".

Which is what happens, when you start to pick pieces:
"I want this from 2, that from 3, something else from 4 and a couple of things from 5" doesn't work, because there are "primary" and "secondary" game elements, the primary elements more or less forcing you to find new different solutions.

Example: H4 wanted to have heroes on the BF, with Heroes filling army slots. If you think about that basic fact for some time, it should be clear that you must introduce creature movement WITHOUT heroes (you can't afford to use heroes as transport vessels, that would be like wasting a Black Dragon for transporting a Pixie around). Clearly, "Heroes on the Battlefield" was not only a primary game feature, but a master feature, that forced many design decisions.

In other words, picking parts is a foolish idea. What you need is the twist, the special, the new angle to design the new game for. Then the pieces will fall into place.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 29, 2016 10:51 AM

You and Stevie are under the assumption that h7 is the example of how a best-of doesn't work when you both very well know h7 is anything but a best-of.

Heroes III Succession Wars is brilliant example of perfect alliance between II and III, so there you have evidence that this approach can work. If it was possible to implement a TotE-like skill system on top of it you get the highlights of II, III and V in one game, add tons of contents and gorgeous modern graphics, there is your best-of and I maintain my position that it would rock.

I am not rejecting your point FYI, give it townscreens and I would easily consider -despite the battles difference- AoW-III as the new Heroes for example so there, but you have to understand bringing a new angle is more challenging, as that new angle can't be implemented at the detriment of what we love in the game. Add, build upon, don't replace.
Or be a genius but that's a risky bet.

Which is why the approach of doing a best-of for VII should have been "safe", updated game with updated graphics, the game wouldn't have been legendary but enjoyable and a nice homage to the series, but we got H6 2.0 instead with lead designers most likely as arrogant than clueless, picking all the wrong parts and making it impossible to merge together, and believing the game failed for any other reason than that is only delusional.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2016 12:22 PM

I've no idea why you insist on telling me that the way H7 worked out would play a crucial role in my assessment of "best-of" Heroes games, although I've told you numerous times I had this opinion before that and even posted something along those lines, when everyone still was hopeful about how H7 would turn out.

The Succession war Mod for H3 is not H8, it's a H2 Mod for H3. The problem with these things is, that this is strictly for fans. It's mixing known elements, enriching gameplay for people who like and play H3, because you need H3 to play it, and you have to like the H2 graphics.

A new HoMM game, however, isn't a non-profit undertaking, and because of that it must aim to win newbies over.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 29, 2016 12:27 PM

JollyJoker said:
A new HoMM game, however, isn't a non-profit undertaking, and because of that it must aim to win newbies over.



Because changing the formula is mandatory to win newbies over?
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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted July 29, 2016 12:46 PM

You know what? Back to topic....

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