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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3?
Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2016 01:14 PM

Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
A new HoMM game, however, isn't a non-profit undertaking, and because of that it must aim to win newbies over.



Because changing the formula is mandatory to win newbies over?


There's no formula agreed upon objectively, but there is context. In the current one, H2, 3, 5 remakes / mashups won't work. It's either a clear differentiation that sets new games apart from the old ones or they won't appeal enough to sell. If a new game doesn't have new features that make it stand on its own but relies instead on the reception old features had, then there's no reason for that game to exist in the first place. There's already conclusive proof that this is the case and all it takes is a look on official releases like Civ, AoW and whatnot appealing to millions, which is a much more stable sample than fanmade mods appealing to thousands at best. Succession Wars might work for you, but it doesn't work for me or for others that already played Heroes 2 and 3 and are bored out of their minds with those games and want something genuinely new and fresh.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 29, 2016 01:26 PM

If done right, both a loyal sequel with not so radical enhancements or a completely fresh perspective will work.

H3 after H2 was an example to the first approach and it was right on spot. H5 was, in a way, a "back to roots" move, because H4 was a failed attempt at the second approach but it can also be partially seen as an example of the second approach, since it changed a lot compared to H2 after H3 and it was also a success. (Personally, I'll still take 3 over 5 any day, though.)  

The bottom line is, if the game is good enough by itself in general, it's relevance to its precessors won't be that determinative.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 29, 2016 01:53 PM

Stevie said:
There's no formula agreed upon objectively [...]  It's either a clear differentiation that sets new games apart from the old ones or they won't appeal enough to sell.


Objectively III is still the most played opus, followed by V, and both are respecting the formula emanating from the first original trilogy which is the one I stand up for.
Talking about sells is only speculation, don't forget Ubisoft admitted being surprised by the sales of V which were way higher than what they expected.

I would say after TotE the series were on the right tracks in terms of gameplay and IMO only Ashan and what comes with had to go.

Quote:
If a new game doesn't have new features that make it stand on its own but relies instead on the reception old features had, then there's no reason for that game to exist in the first place.


I never said I was against new features but I can't see a better example in terms of gameplay than V to illustrate my point, it was an evolution from III, what we love + something more, not a different game with its essence removed.

artu said:
If done right, both a loyal sequel with not so radical enhancements or a completely fresh perspective will work.


All is in the if done right.

artu said:
(Personally, I'll still take 3 over 5 any day, though.)


Me too, but mainly because the universe and 2D.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2016 02:34 PM

I can't understand what's so difficult to see:

The game you are looking for has already been made. It's called H5 TotE.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 29, 2016 02:42 PM

JollyJoker said:
The game you are looking for has already been made. It's called H5 TotE.


Completely wrong, TotE has Ashan, awful 3D and visuals not even mentioning optimization, and its gameplay can and should be expanded upon, and coming from this you will see a new angle, you can't create out of the blue.
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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted July 29, 2016 02:45 PM

Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
The game you are looking for has already been made. It's called H5 TotE.


Completely wrong, TotE has Ashan, awful 3D and visuals not even mentioning optimization, and its gameplay can and should be expanded upon, and coming from this you will see a new angle, you can't create out of the blue.



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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2016 03:41 PM

Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
The game you are looking for has already been made. It's called H5 TotE.


Completely wrong, TotE has Ashan, awful 3D and visuals...
I stopped reading. Too much bs. You are insulting the people that have worked on 5.5.

If you really think you can regurgitate the same things over and over again and produce excellent results you are ... just ripping off Ubisoft.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 29, 2016 04:01 PM

JollyJoker said:
Galaad said:
Completely wrong, TotE has Ashan, awful 3D and visuals...
I stopped reading. Too much bs.


Universe and visuals are BS?

Quote:
You are insulting the people that have worked on 5.5.


How so? I never hid my aversion for the looks of h5, on the contrary Xuxo's textures or similar are mandatory for me.

Quote:
If you really think you can regurgitate the same things over and over again and produce excellent results you are ... just ripping off Ubisoft.


You are not listening to what I say.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2016 07:08 PM
Edited by Stevie at 19:08, 29 Jul 2016.

The conservative fanbase of this series has choked it's potential to death. TB and others were right to flag this. I couldn't believe it and was kinda angry at them for saying such things but now I see it clearly for myself. The focus is so inwards and into the past that it's killing the future. The producer had more balls with Heroes 6 but the backlash made them so shy it ultimately sealed the deal. Listening to the community, the alleged compass for their cluelessness, proved more destructive and regressive than anything. It's the sad conclusion that I've arrived to. And even more sad is the fact that the community itself doesn't realize it but keeps pushing for the "true" best-of in their wild goose chase, closing the border for any innovation until they get the "formula" right. What a snowing joke.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted July 29, 2016 08:11 PM

meh, that's what you will get when you rely on any fan community, fan communities are built around what already is and not what could potentially be, thus they are highly inward-looking, usually never able to agree, never know what's good for themselves in advance, and can't design for ****, that is the norm lol

in fact Heroes is a bit above average because of its very strong modding and mapmaking scene, there are a lot of people who have decent design sensibilities and would like evolution over devolution because they have actually created content themselves, including most of the people in this very thread lol

but you must ignore the community for the most part and have a vision of your own, there's no excuse to make half assed attempts to listen to them and then moan and say they flamed and bullied us into this or that as a scapegoat, as everyone who ever headed a long-milked franchise could use the same limp tactic,

so even forgetting all about the various C- and D-list bargain basement developers and their objectively bad, fundamentally broken codebases rendering the game unplayable anyway with abysmal multiplayer and AI, and the untenable time and budget constraints which should never have been signed off on,
the final call and responsibility to think and do better than their innovative but retarded **** like online dynasty features, halfwitted and incohesive skill systems, overcomplicated RPG-rooted, hero-centric gameplay inconsistently coupled with the streamlining and butchery of strategic elements, porno-tier storylines and junk-tier world building, still lies entirely with Team Erwin lol
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 29, 2016 08:21 PM

Stevie said:
The focus is so inwards and into the past that it's killing the future.


Absolutely not, but throwing away what made the game shine in the first place is a certain way to doom the future, as we could witness with Ubi.

All I'm saying is start from the right basis, the one that works, that didn't need fixing, so is safe to evolve keeping the game's integrity instead of trying to figure out "what would sell more" and come out with straight out WTF game designs for no reason and that no one ever asked.

Stevie said:
The producer had more balls with Heroes 6 but the backlash made them so shy it ultimately sealed the deal. Listening to the community, the alleged compass for their cluelessness, proved more destructive and regressive than anything. It's the sad conclusion that I've arrived to. And even more sad is the fact that the community itself doesn't realize it but keeps pushing for the "true" best-of in their wild goose chase, closing the border for any innovation until they get the "formula" right. What a snowing joke.


Do you even listen to yourself? What has been destructive was the fact Ubilimbic aka Team Erwin did NOT listen to the community while CLAIMING everywhere THEY WERE, also if you remember well...

You and JJ are getting it all wrong, I am not saying the game should never have the slightest change, I am saying the game should evolve without desecrating its legacy.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 29, 2016 09:29 PM
Edited by Stevie at 21:32, 29 Jul 2016.

verriker said:
meh, that's what you will get when you rely on any fan community, fan communities are built around what already is and not what could potentially be, thus they are highly inward-looking, usually never able to agree, never know what's good for themselves in advance, and can't design for ****, that is the norm lol

in fact Heroes is a bit above average because of its very strong modding and mapmaking scene, there are a lot of people who have decent design sensibilities and would like evolution over devolution because they have actually created content themselves, including most of the people in this very thread lol

but you must ignore the community for the most part and have a vision of your own, there's no excuse to make half assed attempts to listen to them and then moan and say they flamed and bullied us into this or that as a scapegoat, as everyone who ever headed a long-milked franchise could use the same limp tactic,

so even forgetting all about the various C- and D-list bargain basement developers and their objectively bad, fundamentally broken codebases rendering the game unplayable anyway with abysmal multiplayer and AI, and the untenable time and budget constraints which should never have been signed off on,
the final call and responsibility to think and do better than their innovative but retarded **** like online dynasty features, halfwitted and incohesive skill systems, overcomplicated RPG-rooted, hero-centric gameplay inconsistently coupled with the streamlining and butchery of strategic elements, porno-tier storylines and junk-tier world building, still lies entirely with Team Erwin lol


Absolutely agree with this, the fault for all this snow show lies chiefly with Team Erwin and the rest of the producer / developer inner circle, as Cepheus rightly pointed out years ago before calling it quits. If it weren't for their total lack of vision, utterly bizarre and counter-intuitive design decisions as well as snowty budgeting and development time, then they wouldn't have had to rely on anyone else but themselves to make good games. Sadly, that was never the case. The only hope this franchise has now is if Vivendi takes over and is benevolent enough to make it great again, but to be fair I have my doubts.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 29, 2016 10:50 PM

Stevie said:
The conservative fanbase of this series has choked it's potential to death.


I'd say the biggest killer was the lack of vision by Team Erwin. Didn't he actually tell that to you, of all people, in person? They weren't running their own compass because they had none and then totally flunked out when they tried to interpret the community's compass - which was jittery as it was, because a community can hardly ever agree unanimously on any aspect. But despite their jittery-ness, there were some golden lines which were basically also components that made previous games great. Heck, how often didn't the two of us discuss various aspects, going into depth about how certain might work - or not?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 30, 2016 11:10 AM

Erwin Team is clueless we all agree and is why they had to rely on the community, basically if they had listened at least it wouldn't be the most poorly rated game in the Heroes history.

But for any team to have the competence to create a sequel, they need to know about the series, moreover if they want to suggest a new angle. I will repeat creation is not a gift of God, is a result of a long labor and study through passion giving you sufficient amount of matter to compose with and use to express yourself. Then some people are more talented/clever/scholarly than others, and here goes the selection of your team.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 30, 2016 11:40 AM

You are wrong.

Basically, a team would have to come to Ubisoft, saying, hey, half a year ago a few of us were playing some Heroes in our spare time, and we had this cool idea about how to a game of the brand [exposť following].

INSTEAD Ubisoft has decided to start the development of a new game immediately after the cycle of the previous game ended, hiring a new company for the JOB/WORK of delivering a sequel (instead of waiting for someone to come up with a vision for a new game AFTER their decision NOT to continue the work with Nival who obviously were a league above BH and Limbic).

What I want to say is, you EITHER hire quality - someone like Triumph (and for that you may have to wait until they are free). OR you wait until someone comes up with something you can work with.

What you can't do is, "hey, let's make a new Heroes game, I'd like a mix of 3 and 5, let's just start and the rest we'll come up with on the fly."

For the same reason, you cannot say in a comm unity, "hey let's make the next heroes game, what would you all like to have in it?"

It doesn't work that way.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 30, 2016 11:53 AM

JollyJoker said:
What you can't do is, "hey, let's make a new Heroes game, I'd like a mix of 3 and 5, let's just start and the rest we'll come up with on the fly."


Where did I say this?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 30, 2016 12:05 PM

Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
What you can't do is, "hey, let's make a new Heroes game, I'd like a mix of 3 and 5, let's just start and the rest we'll come up with on the fly."


Where did I say this?


Here:

Galaad said:
HorazVitae said:
We are gonna try to merge the best features of every HoMM, with maybe a bit of innovation from our side


For me, roughly is:

- Heroes II : Graphics & towns lineups.
- Heroes III : Map Editor.
- Heroes IV : Magic system.
- Heroes V : Skill system & creature abilities.

I believe this is solid foundation, good luck with the project, do not hesitate to contact programmers and graphical artists hanging around to join you, more useful than swarm of ideas.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 30, 2016 12:07 PM

And you believe no good Heroes game can come out of this I got that.

Instead let's just ignore the past and surprise everyone with a new vision like IV or VI did, right?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 30, 2016 12:47 PM

There we go again with the same bs.

That is NOT the alternative.


1) Not all points may be compatible; for example, in your preferences you want to combine 5's skill system with 4's Magic System, and I'm completely at a loss how that would be possible or what you mean with "4's Magic system".

2) The important thing are the INNOVATIONS, because there is no good reason for a new Heroes game without them in the first, what with the mountains of content there already are (and that would be abandonded obviously, if the new game was as great as everybody imagines it would have to be - otherwise, again, no need for all the work, if a new game is played once a month between Wog and 5.5 and 4 and whatnot.

3) However, "innovations" may also suck, so you need GOOD innovations, and here we are at what is called "a vision". A new angle that you know will be good, because most everything falls into place and things develop more or less by itself. The genius idea, if you want to.

The reason that there are only a few really great games is obviously, that the genius ideas are rare.

Which means, to make a really GREAT NEW Heroes game you can't just mix a few features and hope the game to be great. Instead you need that elusive new angle first to give sou some natural filter for the past.

Did I make myself clear this time?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 30, 2016 01:00 PM

JollyJoker said:
Which means, to make a really GREAT NEW Heroes game you can't just mix a few features and hope the game to be great. Instead you need that elusive new angle first to give sou some natural filter for the past.


I don't recall disagreeing here, what I'm saying is you also need to know where to start so why dismiss the foundations of the games still played decades later, you can only allow yourself to go out of the box once you've mastered the box. Then if 4's Magic system is problematic to relate your example, scrap it and come up with something else, every work has countless bins full before coming to fruition and rarely first ideas remain.
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