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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3?
Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 30, 2016 01:14 PM

Well, how would you able to find a new angle without "being fluent" in the series? You wouldn't.

On the other hand you could more easily think, if we take all parts of the game from the past anyway, you don't need to have more than a fleeting familiarity, since you just put a best-of together.

Look, it's not about "dismissing" the past, it's finding a new filter to look at it. We don't need another H3 - no H3 Clone will beat the original, ever, even if it's the better game, because H3 is so monumentally big with all the Mods and maps and stuff. You can "beat" these games only by delivering a gaming experience you cannot have with the past games.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 30, 2016 02:42 PM
Edited by Galaad at 14:46, 30 Jul 2016.

JollyJoker said:
you don't need to have more than a fleeting familiarity, since you just put a best-of together.


Quite on the contrary I think you need to know extremely well the games to be able to make a best-of. Put the mistakes out and make shine the best you can the greatness. This requires much more work, discernment and competence than just "putting parts together", let alone taking VI as a basis to do that like they did with VII is just absurd. Incompatibility at its best.

Quote:
We don't need another H3


When did I ever say I wanted a H3 clone? All due respect this is a Ubi-class fallacy.

Quote:
You can "beat" these games only by delivering a gaming experience you cannot have with the past games.


WOG alone has literally hundreds of mods and gameplay options one can enable or disable at his convenience with a single clic + the possibility to implement his own if he knows scripting, good luck competing against that in terms of gaming experience with 6 factions and not even a decent zoom.

But something like Hota or 5.5 would suffice, I bet there is more fans playing these than both h6 and h7 players combined. Heh, maybe we do need "another h3" after all...

I find it extremely entitled to decide "III cannot be beaten" when it has already been beaten by its own fans long ago, guess we're stuck with the 15 yo graphics looking better than a 2015 game with people looking everywhere but where the grail is.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 30, 2016 02:49 PM

Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:

We don't need another H3


When did I ever say I wanted a H3 clone? All due respect this is a Ubi-class fallacy.

Is it your habit to post in threads without reading the title? Because you gave a pretty detailed - positive - asnwer to the question what you would want in a new HoMM 3.

And reading your posts tells me, you are erguing for the sake of arguing.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 30, 2016 02:53 PM
Edited by Galaad at 14:55, 30 Jul 2016.

Ok my bad I forgot about the title of the thread.

No I am arguing with you because I disapprove of your approach.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 30, 2016 03:01 PM

Personally I would be happy with an improved and fixed H3-style, and by style I mean fast and fluid playing -for instance turn duration went from 4 to 20 minutes between H3-H5 online, that's 5 times longer for same actions; then symbolical graphics -heroes and creatures bigger than trees and mountains, not trying to be realist, as in H5-H7, solid skill-wheel with synergies between skills, and on top a highly modable game where we can do whatever we want; it looks to me they totally ignore WoG possibilities and how unease is for people to downgrade creativity and possibilities with each Heroes version. I mean once you have that, start from it, not from below.

But is true that I dislike 3D graphics used today, I don't play most games because of such graphics where there is hard to instinctively distinguish goals and proper distances -not even speaking about awful battlefields, so my personal taste is somehow anti marketing, as graphics often substitute to lack of real content.

And of course, this is clearly another chit-chat thread. No one si going to hand made any Heroes, not matter how clear are the instructions. It took Hota 6 years to release one town, the difference between people working at full time and those working in free time is huge.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 30, 2016 03:51 PM

Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
you don't need to have more than a fleeting familiarity, since you just put a best-of together.


Quite on the contrary I think you need to know extremely well the games to be able to make a best-of.


I think you actually need both. On one hand, you need people who know the games from the past, people who know what made those games "tick", who can point out critical success factors. On the other hand, you need people who aren't restrained by their knowledge of past games to come up with fresh and new ideas, new insights into what might work for the game.

When you combine them, you start down the path of creation, where vision is planted into fertile soil, eventually growing into a beautiful tree, well taken care of before its fruits are ripe for the picking to be sold to the general public.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 30, 2016 03:57 PM

Maurice said:
On the other hand, you need people who aren't restrained by their knowledge of past games to come up with fresh and new ideas, new insights into what might work for the game.


How can someone be "restrained by his knowledge"? You might be talking about bias, I don't believe purposely bringing clueless people in the equation would be very prolific nor helpful on that matter.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 30, 2016 05:01 PM

I didn't say clueless. I talked about people who have a general idea of TBS games, but who don't breathe Heroes games back to front, standing on their head while singing the national anthem in reverse .

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 30, 2016 05:42 PM

There are no such obsessional fans here, that is more WoW style. People who played a lot H2-H3 are in no way opposed to changes -and proof is the extremely prolific Wog forum, but they will not always agree with changes for the sake of. I have no problem if whatever Ubi or who-else team starts to innovate in the game and does that from solid bases, I have a problem when all their chaotic "new ideas" show they didn't play the previous games, the ones which actually made possible their work. If they are hired to design a game, is because there were successful games before, or they act like their game will be the Jesus Christ count down, with no real interest for what was before.

An obvious example are the battlefields. They are unreadable. When you spent hours to succeed at H2-H3 online, you don't ever think that trees, bushes, shadows and lights have any role in a battle, other than confusing the players, making the turns slower and longer, and consequently the game much less fun.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 30, 2016 05:47 PM

The point is, it doesn't make any sense to try and REPLACE an existing game with so much content. Why would you even WANT to make a game so that people would say, oh, hey, H3 WoG is now for the trashcan. Not to mention that this may not even be possible.

Which means, every new HoMM game must necessarily try to be so different that people who avidly play H3 WoG will STILL play it for everything they like with that game, and the new game for DIFFERENT reasons. Same with 5.5.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 30, 2016 05:55 PM

But this is exactly what happened with H2-->H3 transition, and guess what, it was the golden age. People who played H2 had their discontent with the game and were delighted to see H3 addressed the most of flaws, and even more, add new things -the wait feature being a top improvement. If we look back, the percentage of players who kept playing H2 after H3 release is inexistent, no tourneys, no more mapmaking, nada. H2 died of natural death, vive le roi.

And then, when H4 decided to "innovate and cut with tradition", what we see? Old fans kept playing H3. We can argue that H4 did not succeed because not finished, because inner problems with designers, conflicts and dadada, but there are the facts, it didn't work.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 30, 2016 11:36 PM

There was no community work with H2, though, so it was no problem to switch. You just have to ask yourself what would have to happen for you to stop playing H3 Wog  AND whether you'd even want that.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 30, 2016 11:54 PM

The core of ToH in 2001 consisted from 3 major H2 leagues, Isle, Oracle and Vesuvius tournament, compiling into one, ToH. About 150 active players, which for 1999 is big deal. All switched to H3 because there was no bad surprise, but only filled expectations. Same design team helps though.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 12:18 AM

Your point is, with a view on real economy?

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 31, 2016 12:31 AM

His point is, even before modding and WoG, a sequel which stuck to the fundamental basics of its precessor was right on spot, commercially and loyal fanbase wise.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 12:00 PM

Let's just have a look at things before we lose perspective here.

Heroes 1 was published in 1995, and by that time 2 was half finished already. You could see 2 as a major upgrading expansion of 1, adding a lot of stuff and changing only the way Knowledge worked. So the step from 1 to 2 is clear, because 2 is everything 1 was and a lot more. The POL expansion didn't add a lot, though. The color-caded gates, Ghosts and some campaigns.

Heroes 3 was published in 1999, the faction-adding expansion was published the same year. At that time, while everyone PLAYED H2, there were no mods expanding H2. It was still just H2 with a relatively lousy expansion. First of all, H3 added one hell of a lot of sheer CONTENT, and content is same as engine size when it comes to "power". 2 more factions, TWO MORE ARMY SLOTS, SIXTEEN different hero types instead of 6, DOUBLE as many creatures in 8 towns instead of 56 in 6, plus another one with another 14 in the first expansion, more hero skills and more interesting ones as well, a bigger and fuller battlefield and the Wait command to top it off; also, the way you got mass spells had something nice.

I know, most people will come up with a "but" with the following, but in terms of fundamental gameplay H2 is the better game. Some changes made from 2 were not good. HOWEVER (don't waste time with the "but"), the additional content plus the fact that the battle part is better in H3 - and did I mention the added content yet? - made the not so good changes somewhat irrelevant - there simply was so much MORE in that game.
After SoD H3 had so much EASY TO HANDLE content (in fact, it's probably the best game in THAT regard ever) that it was easier and even natural to start modding the game to give it yet more content, iron out some flaws and be able to to with it whatever you want. There was so much to work with.

The result is an absolutely monstrous package that makes the buy of H3 complete for the insane price of 10 bucks for a 17 year old game an absolute bargain.

So let's see: H3 is NOT better than H2 in each and every regard, but it's infinitely BIGGER, and it's also very user-friendly.

There are so many people who have worked with H3 - making maps, mods, expansions, campaigns -, which means they are very attached to the game for 17 years now, so that the only game that could bring people to give up on that would be a game that came with 12 towns, over 300 creatures, a very easy to mod engine, a very-user-friendly map-editor and a better gameplay.
Which is obviously pretty impossible.

Now think about Age of Wonders. AoW 2 SM finished with a whopping 3 game levels and FIFTEEN different races - so why would you give up playing that for a game that came with a vanilla SIX only (and finsihed with only 9 on 2 levels instead of 3)? And the answer is, because the game added another dimension, CLASS, another 6 in vanilla finishing with 7, suddenly giving you 36 playable combos in vanilla and 63 as the end product - and that is not to mention the fact that even those 63 can be further customized right at start by picking 3 specializations - for example, you can play a "good" Goblin Theocrat or an "evil" one (good and evil for simplicity) and a lot more, including a "neutral" one.

See that? "Content" is a word that can be replaced by "replayability", "playing options", "variations", whatever you want to use as a word, but in the end it amounts to the same thing. A game that always plays the same will be done with in months (H6 and H7, anyone?); a game that you can play for years and still find something new in, will play for years.

Again, H3 Wog (or ERA with everything that can be fired up there) sets a VERY high benchmark in that regard. Just IMAGINE you just had started with computer gaming, and you'd like fantasy and TBS, then someone would tell you, get H3 complete, play a little, especially the follwing maps [List of great H3 maps], then download WoG/Era and explore the options - what do you think, how long would you be mesmerized by what would unfold?

Anyway, H4 has been a different game - and it still stands as well - also with a fan-made balance Mod. It is pretty obvious that trying to replace H4 would be a lot easier to handle considering the smallish content in terms of towns and creatures, however, there is this Heroes on the battlefield problem that would have to be solved ... STILL, "Let's make a new H4" is a much better thing to aspire to ...

H5 TotE MIGHT have managed to replace H3 Complete - but the editor sucks. However, the game has a couple of trump cards: 1) The skill wheel; this is, mind you, a straight development from H4, not H3, or, more correctly, looking at H3 and H4 skills and magic system and come up with some very clever and ingenious way to leap into the next dimension; 2) Autocombat; 3) Alternative Upgrades (see above for content and replayabiliuty) 4) 8 racial special skills with the respective game mechanics

H5 could not replace H3, but the 5.5 Mod has lifted it to a much bigger experience than it was initially (adding content as well, with the addition of so many Hero classes). Still, H3 Wog stands - probably because it's so easy to play in comparison. Fast.

We have two games after that.
H6 aimed to simplify SOME game aspects and solve the ever-present potential might/magic imbalance; there is also a try to give extra replayability via blood/tears, but in the end the game overdid the simplification (failing to add decision complexity elsewhere) and effectively threw content and replayability (which we have established as being of utmost importance) out of the window. Result: failure. Even if it had been a better game, it would still have had only a fraction of the content of what 3, 4 and 5 already offer (town conversion is part of 5.5 as well - if you want it, that is).

H7 - the best of. By now it should be clear that one way or another a new Heroes game must deliver "relevant content" - on an easy to handle and mod game engine that doesn't overdo graphics. You'd think 36 Hero classes would be a start - but there is the problem caused by the RELEVANT attribute of content. H7, in fact, doesn't deliver anything at all, I think. Instead it makes things worse than we already had it, and where it delivers MORE it doesn't help, to name only hero classes (who can memorize them all and their characteristics?) or town-building which looks engrossing, but is only convoluted. You don't HAVE to build each day, just to build something.

So, failure again, and by quite a big margin.

At this stage, the questions are:

Would you even WANT one Heroes game to replace all the others?
Is it even POSSIBLE to do that?
And should you AIM for it?

And I think the answer to all 3 is NO, because yes doesn't make sense.

Instead the aim has to be to create a UNIQUE next Heroes game, that would leave H3 Wog, H4 and H5.5 all in their respective place, but give people STILL ample reason to play (relevant content).

And here you need to find the new ANGLE, the thing that will make Heroes X a different, but still a Heroes game, giving the playing experience such a quality that even if H3 Wog has more content as such you still could play years out of it.

What people have in mind when they want a "best of", a new H3 and so on, is combining 1-3 plus 5 plus the good things of 4 to one mega heroes game that will feature everything great ever in the series, so that everyone says THAT'S THE DEFINITE HEROES GAME - but, people, that's fan thinking. It's not possible.

What is needed instead is A NEW START - which will leaves the whole work of the past, the fun and everything in their rightful places, and be a great game in its own right. Not only for fans.

Or, let's try it differently:

Let's say HoMM would buy a license the AoW 3 game engine. The engine is extremely stable and mod-friendly, graphics are fantastic and unobtrusive, you can zoom out until the map becomes a real "map", let's just assume the engine is perfect and the easy handling is there.
Now, how should this game to replace all the others should look? H3 has how many towns now? 9 original plus the Coven, the Forge and the Oasis or something? TWELVE factions? Aim for those, all with at least 8 creatures and alternative upgrades? Different skill wheels for each Hero Class? 80 spells in 4 schools? 2-level world? Big battlefield with 4 different unit sizes like H4 did?

How many people are supposed to work how many years to do that?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 31, 2016 01:27 PM

JollyJoker said:
but in terms of fundamental gameplay H2 is the better game. Some changes made from 2 were not good.


This is speculation. There are facts, then there are opinions. Facts as statistics are based on multiple opinions and you just ignore them because they don't fit your view. Fans stopped playing H2 as soon as H3 came out, this is the the major fact that should interest you when comparing the two games. All else is personal opinion, mostly based on how in depth you know both games.  

There are hundreds of posts in HC about why H3 is a clear improvement from H2, and this observes every broken H2 game play aspect, as speed, hit and run, battlefield access for flying units, editor limitations, artifacts then terrible balance concerning high level creatures HP or stats. All were corrected, improved, fixed. Extensions were added. More creatures, more factions, but same graphics style, same core mechanics. Because they weren't the problem, but the strength.

And there is no advantage H5 can claim, is just an awful Heroes game. People who didn't intensively played H2 nor H3 will surely find in it good things. But there is one thing Heroes game were kings in, is readability, fluidity, speed and friendly interface. All this was gone with the 3D bad handling of H5 and more.

If in next episode of GoT dragons become chickens, everyone is a dwarf and action takes place on Mars, there will be surely people who will say its great and why not. But the majority of fans will be destroyed. That's what a sequel is supposed to do: take from previous what works then fix what it didn't work. Then add content if budget allows. Everything which heavily gets out from this pattern or even changes the whole structure will create a new game. Good, excellent or awful, doesn't matter, is still a different game and should have a different name and aim to a different mass of people.

And this is exactly what every Heroes game after the third did. The last Heroes game is III.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 02:22 PM

Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
but in terms of fundamental gameplay H2 is the better game. Some changes made from 2 were not good.


This is speculation. There are facts, then there are opinions. Facts as statistics are based on multiple opinions and you just ignore them because they don't fit your view.
Ah, the "million flies cannot be wrong" strawman. Nor do you have nay "majority statistics". Also, you don't make money, by selling to "fans" alone. So save that crap when you wnnt to discuss something.
Quote:
Fans stopped playing H2 as soon as H3 came out, this is the the major fact that should interest you when comparing the two games.
Well, they didn't, actually, but it doesn't matter:

Quote:
There are hundreds of posts in HC about why H3 is a clear improvement from H2, and this observes every broken H2 game play aspect, as speed, hit and run, battlefield access for flying units, editor limitations, artifacts then terrible balance concerning high level creatures HP or stats. All were corrected, improved, fixed. Extensions were added. More creatures, more factions, but same graphics style, same core mechanics. Because they weren't the problem, but the strength.
Had you read my post you could have saved that rant, because the switch to H3 is uncontested because a)
there wasn't any fan-made content, b) the game was bigger in every respect, and c) everything concerning the BF was better. However, there are some things that were not for the better, namely in-game economy, robbing the towns their individual creature building trees and giving heroes as many army slots as towns have creature levels. Also, H2 is imbalanced, of course, but H3 isn't balanced, that's clear as well.
But that's all unimportant, because the bottom line is that H3 is simply the bigger package with decisive advantages over 2 - which was just a game at that stage, not an institution.

Quote:
And there is no advantage H5 can claim, is just an awful Heroes game. People who didn't intensively played H2 nor H3 will surely find in it good things. But there is one thing Heroes game were kings in, is readability, fluidity, speed and friendly interface. All this was gone with the 3D bad handling of H5 and more.
That's just pollocks. If that was so overwhelmingly important, everyone would play NWC's Spaceward Ho! as multiplayer space empire game - but I don't think, people do that.

Quote:
If in next episode of GoT dragons become chickens, everyone is a dwarf and action takes place on Mars, there will be surely people who will say its great and why not. But the majority of fans will be destroyed. That's what a sequel is supposed to do: take from previous what works then fix what it didn't work. Then add content if budget allows. Everything which heavily gets out from this pattern or even changes the whole structure will create a new game. Good, excellent or awful, doesn't matter, is still a different game and should have a different name and aim to a different mass of people.

And this is exactly what every Heroes game after the third did. The last Heroes game is III.
That's the typical fan-bullcrap that might make a certain sense  - but look at Civilization: With 4 producing so many quality mods, they NEEDED tzo make 5 a different enough game to justify the release - splitting opinions, of course, but the point is the same. You have to stop trying to win everyone over, once a product has been massively enriched by the fan community.

A game producer can't live just on "hardcore" fans - they have to win over new fans, otherwise they are doomed.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 31, 2016 02:31 PM

JollyJoker said:
Let's just have a look at things before we lose perspective here. ignore any argument you guys said and get back to MY point.


Sorry man but you're not paying attention to ANY of the arguments that has been presented to you by either me or Sal, let alone Artu who said both ways would be possible, so why so obtuse?

JollyJoker said:
A game producer can't live just on "hardcore" fans - they have to win over new fans, otherwise they are doomed.


Sorry to tell you but here you just sound like Ubisoft, any fan rooting for the core essence of this series is nothing but a "hardcore nutthead", and the game just has to be a different one in order to appeal to newcomers, right... What a load of garbage.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 31, 2016 02:58 PM

Yeah I forgot who I was trying to argue with, why do I even bother.

Look, you barely know both games, H2 and H3 -nobody, ever, saw you playing competition level, but you think you can substitute JJ level logic to gameplay first hand experience, get whats all about then impose us your high vision. Well, you don't and your analysis are amateurish level, then as usual very unfriendly and provocative on a personal plan.

Several times, when you visited the H3 strategy threads then share -better said yell at us- with us your knowledge, you were warned by more than one experienced player that you know nothing and should  learn first the basics, that you voluntarily skip any detail you don't understand. Saying that H2 is better as gameplay than H3 only show how ignorant you are, in the terms of the very gameplay you personally underline. I am nopt talking about the fun one can have, but about GAME PLAY, balance, game issues, challenge, fair tactics to use. H2 was totally broken in this regard.

PS: who the hell decided JJ is the vip HC needs to send to Ubi and explain them how to make the game? Wonderful result we have there.
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