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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: An Empirical Study of MMH7 Memory Consumption and Time Complexity
Thread: An Empirical Study of MMH7 Memory Consumption and Time Complexity This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV
frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted August 24, 2016 03:24 PM

Oakwarrior said:

Erwan himself has made, contrary to popular belief, very few decisions about H7 as well. Most of them being aesthetic.


That is why it says Team . So let me rephrase that, Ubi says hi?
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN

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Oakwarrior
Oakwarrior


Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2016 03:25 PM
Edited by Oakwarrior at 15:25, 24 Aug 2016.

frostymuaddib said:
Oakwarrior said:

Erwan himself has made, contrary to popular belief, very few decisions about H7 as well. Most of them being aesthetic.


That is why it says Team . So let me rephrase that, Ubi says hi?


Not only
Limbic also had say in it.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted August 24, 2016 03:29 PM

Oakwarrior said:

Not only
Limbic also had say in it.


Well, tell your superiors (decision makers) that they suck

Jokes aside, I think that much better decisions could be made. But oh well, what's done it's done. I'm still sad because of things happening with Heroes franchise...

May the Spider Messiah be with you, Oakwarrior. Thanks for chatting
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN

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Oakwarrior
Oakwarrior


Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2016 03:36 PM

frostymuaddib said:
Oakwarrior said:

Not only
Limbic also had say in it.


Well, tell your superiors (decision makers) that they suck

Jokes aside, I think that much better decisions could be made. But oh well, what's done it's done. I'm still sad because of things happening with Heroes franchise...

May the Spider Messiah be with you, Oakwarrior. Thanks for chatting


I think that much better decisions could have been made too. Too little too late though. And I didn't join the company as a producer which makes my voice a bit less intense than you'd maybe expect

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted August 24, 2016 03:46 PM

Oakwarrior said:
frostymuaddib said:
Oakwarrior said:
There are very few decisions that programmers make, especially when it comes to visuals.


So.... Team Erwin says hi?


Erwan himself has made, contrary to popular belief, very few decisions about H7 as well. Most of them being aesthetic.

Actually, H7 needed its scapegoat. And Erwan was presented as the highest person in the development. So although I dislike these "popular" comments about him, I can say it makes partially sense at least. Someone from Ubisoft must have been responsible for the low quality of the game at the time of its release. And who else should be blamed by community than the man who is presented as the head person. Sure I know the reality is more complicated...

Speaking about the AI again, I admit I have never cared about it before the H7 development and the game itself came. The reason why I started to care was that previous games, and I am not speaking only about AI behaviour, always offered some challenges. There have always been some interesting combats even on normal difficulty. I know the situation for AI is different in H7 as it is not "allowed" to cheat but it should be compensated in another way (like powers of predefined armies) and something's certainly still wrong if you can pass through all missions without any problems on the highest, heroic difficulty. But to be fair you have made very big changes and progress on its development since the release. I really hated when for example AI in H6 was very predictable, attacking always the same unit in my army. Especially with in-game Reinforcements and such skills, it was incredibly annoying. H7 is already much better in this case and it even behaves sometimes differently after the reload.

Oh the topic are technical issues? I won't pretend I understand technical things, in fact I don't do all but I don't know yet why Heroes move so terribly slow on my laptop even on the highest speed. And why my game settings still shows internal graphics instead of my AMD Radeon. Ubisoft's support "contact AMD support, their software is probably not working correctly" was really ridiculous.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 24, 2016 04:13 PM

Oakwarrior said:
JollyJoker said:

Now, there obviously has been a problem with skills/abilities disappearing after saving/loading. How on EARTH could that bug survive QC? That's MOST awkward, considering that this has been delayed a couple of months anyway.



Well, I suggest you ask our QC..

I strongly suspect that would probably be as useful as asking your "game balancing department" - whoever that is - about why a Hunter costs 100 Gold and a Master Hunter, who deals double the damage and has 5% more Initiative and 13% more HPs costs (still!) 130 Gold.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 24, 2016 04:24 PM

Oakwarrior said:
Well, I suggest you ask our QC..

And yes we were even confident that it's fixed now with the latest hotfix. It's not the case. We're going for another route now for this issue and hope that if it works, the OK we get from QC this time around actually has substance to it


So you mean to say their initial comment didn't have any substance? You do realise what this implies to the ignorant outsider, right?
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Oakwarrior
Oakwarrior


Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2016 04:31 PM
Edited by Oakwarrior at 16:37, 24 Aug 2016.

Maurice said:
Oakwarrior said:
Well, I suggest you ask our QC..

And yes we were even confident that it's fixed now with the latest hotfix. It's not the case. We're going for another route now for this issue and hope that if it works, the OK we get from QC this time around actually has substance to it


So you mean to say their initial comment didn't have any substance? You do realise what this implies to the ignorant outsider, right?


All I have to say is that look at any Ubisoft release in the past 5 years and you will have an idea what the QC is like..

As for balancing we're looking into it. Heavily.


Ah and with AMD... the support suggestion from ubi might actually be legitimate, as surprising as it may sound. We've already implemented changes due to AMD's terrible drivers to increase compatibility but it only goes a certain length.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 24, 2016 05:11 PM

Oakwarrior said:

As for balancing we're looking into it. Heavily.

I can't really decide whether I should answer this with a sarcastic "so soon after release" or with a sarcastic reference concerning the certainly massive amounts of available game data from finished MP games that should help with the heavy looking, so I'll just wish you luck for it, because all things considered you'll need it.

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olorin
olorin


Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
posted August 24, 2016 05:21 PM

You guys rock, I mean, I adore reading posts from smart fellas: arguments, counterarguments... Amazing. Some people call this 'negativity' or 'criticism' and I don't even know why since I'm learning a lot myself.

Oakwarrior said:
I just couldn't bear to read this and not react to it because of how well you guys demonstrated how much you think you know about game development.


Talking about Lizard & co.? As for the rest of us, poor "circlejerkers" we don't have to be architects to watch a building falling apart: you can call it memory leak, alchemical transmutation or whatever, but as sure as we're all gonna die, there's something awfully done in H7 programming. You can deny it by throwing us dirt but it's there man, it certainly is...

You can learn from Triumph's experience: polished products,  positive fans, great future. Too much love.

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted August 24, 2016 07:06 PM
Edited by blob2 at 19:49, 24 Aug 2016.

Yeah, perfect time to show interest in the community (maybe on a whim?). I suspect this is all because of the higher-ups, but communication with the players (which was lacking), even in the face of overwhelming trashing, is something you build a better game upon.

They say better late then never, but in this case I would rather say the milk has been spilled...

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 24, 2016 07:39 PM

frostymuaddib said:
Oakwarrior said:

Not only
Limbic also had say in it.


Well, tell your superiors (decision makers) that they suck

Jokes aside..

That's not even a joke man! The amount of terrible decisions(all of which had been warned against) is no laughing matter.

Oakwarrior said:
As for balancing we're looking into it. Heavily.

If I am to be perfectly honest I hope limbic even knows where to start. There have been glaring balance issues that should have been fixed from the very first patch even and now we are at the 9-nth. Speaking of which, do any of you play the game? Just a few hours of play would have been so much more enlightening than ubi's Qc department.
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Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2016 10:35 PM

Oakwarrior said:

Oh and don't worry about the silence, this is purely personal
I just couldn't bear to read this and not react to it because of how well you guys demonstrated how much you think you know about game development.



I think this is the most unbelieveable thing about most of the defenders of HOMM7's technical performance.

You're sorta missing the point. I don't know the first thing about how game development works and I do not want to know either. I just want to buy my games and play them and have fun.

My pc was bought the same year HoMM6 came out and was more than enough to run it. Is HOMM7 so much of a vast improvement over it (graphically, or in other aspects) that I should expect this machine not to run it? No. Did the game check my system specs and then told me this machine was unsuited for it? No. Did this machine ran many games after HOMM6 without issues? Yes. Do they give me a better experience than HOMM7 does? Most of them do, yes. Does HOMM7 run in a sluggish, unbeareably slow and buggy way on the aformentioned machine? Yes. Yes it does.

You can certainly find a technical reason as to why the game doesn't go smooth on this machine. You can certainly find a more powerful machine which makes the game run fine, or a more savvy player who could somewhat work his/her way around the bugs/crashes, sure. You can definitely demonstrate us how everyone here knows less than you about why the game has the problem it does, and how to solve them efficiently.

But all you're doing is stressing the point: HOMM7 is poorly optimized and runs on a small selection of up-to-date computers, so -before any consideration to the actual content of the game- many of us should just not bother even trying it, unless they find it such an incredible experience that it justifies buying new hardware. And pretty much everyone agrees that HOMM7 is not such experience.

Long story short, there's nothing about your inner knowledge of the game workings that could change the fact that HOMM7 is a sloppy product.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 24, 2016 10:57 PM

It's not like indepth knowledge of the industry will make one's gaming time more enjoyable. I am more interested in how to make something work, not excuses why it doesn't. Whether something is a matter of optimization, qc, budget, mismanagement, bad marketing or simply a brainfart - I don't think anyone cares. All a fan wants is to play a working game and enjoy it.
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Aionb
Aionb


Known Hero
posted August 24, 2016 11:28 PM
Edited by Aionb at 08:56, 25 Aug 2016.

@ all: I don't understand. Why do you still bother?
The creator of the limbicware made his position clear regarding a good part of opposing opinions when he said the following:

creator of the limbicware said:
verriker said:
how's it going there, did you find the skills and resources yet to patch up the nasty memory leaks and dreadful AI of H7 lol


No we're too busy making sure the MP always goes out of sync at least once per game


creator of the limbicware said:

I just couldn't bear to read this and not react to it because of how well you guys demonstrated how much you think you know about game development.


Then when people say
frostymuaddib said:
I never said that I know game development

LizardWarrior]I'm not saying that I'm better than you, I stated in my first post that I'm a noob in game programming, but the worse the programmer, the more I should screw it up, no?/quote said:


The
creator of the limbicware said:
I respect you and what you do and you are basically the only person on this board I know that actually is genuinely curious on how games work ... The rest is just mindless circlejerk over arbitrary numbers that hold little or no actual value.

And then, finis coronat opus:
creator of the limbicware said:
verriker said:
creator of the limbicware said:
Right back at you, son.


if expressions of contempt for your audience are really the only rejoinders you have in your arsenal, I honestly have to say I wish you and your studio ill tidings in turn, and that the failure of Heroes 7, can only be the chickens coming home to roost (while, believe it or not, I felt legitimate pity for Limbic before) lol


I don't care about you
Also you're not really my audience.

("Don't care" , my bum, big words, empty talk, if you don't care, you don't answer and you don't need to state your indifference)

I truly think he deserves to be ignored. Along with his piece of limbicware?

@ blob2 - if anyone faced "overwhelming trashing", that was not the creator of the limbicware, but the rest, the ones indulging in "mindless circlejerk".
And, may I add, some of the ones indulging in "mindless circlejerk" even paid for the piece of limbicware!

@ SoilBurn: you are right and I apologize to all for my outburst. I edited my post, in order to stick only to the product and nothing more. Btw, do you think that "mindless circlejerk" and "I don't care about you / Also you're not really my audience" are not remarks on a personal level?


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SoilBurn
SoilBurn


Known Hero
BurnsSoil
posted August 25, 2016 02:23 AM
Edited by SoilBurn at 02:30, 25 Aug 2016.

Oakwarrior said:

I even have trouble understanding what you guys mean with memory leak. If a game takes 5gb of memory, and then after advancing in it, taking into account that some changes will be persistent and then takes 6gb, that is not a memory leak. A memory leak for me means a constant and increasing (either linear or exponential) consumption of memory, that has no end and will run till the application crashes or becomes otherwise unuseable, like if it hangs. Fluctuations in memory usage are common, though.

Just play the game for 4-5 hours straight and you won't have trouble understanding any more.
There is a constant and increasing consumption of memory and it does lead to the game becoming slow, game sounds getting distorted, and bugs like the infamous double attack getting more common. The only way to solve this right now is to actually terminate the game, wait 30-50 secs until the bloated RAM usage goes back to normal, and then start it again (rinse and repeat after another 4 hours).
Aionb said:
@ all: I don't understand you. Why do you still bother?
This little piece of limbic showed what he is made of when he said the following:

This post is offensive and the tone completely unnecessary.
Regardless what the gentleman's position is at this project, it is still positive that someone comes out and speaks openly about the technical issues of H7. Why can't we stick to the facts and need to become personal?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 25, 2016 02:59 AM

Oakwarrior,

I have to admit I really don't understand. We are here, all passionate fans of the franchise, as much as you are if not more for some, yet after long silence on these boards you come lecture us despite the state of h7. Ok, sure, you are right to remember us some things in game development do take years to understand, like the difference between allocating and reserving, which is very advanced concept of professional programmer, and you make fun of the test showed here because profiling a game does take more than CTRL-ALT-DEL so you mock the OP, and explaining things from a technical side is right, no doubt about. I understand if you feel frustrated about the reception of the game you worked on in fan communities, but I don't understand why you respond in such a way, please realize when fans and developers are at war it without doubt means something is seriously messed up, no matter the rest. You label huge majority of disappointed fans (which seem to be quite numerous) as "haters in circlejerk" and I get this is defensive mechanism, but there is something really not sane in all this, in example when you tell a respected member like Verriker that "you don't care about him" and "he's not really your audience", please considerate what this means. Basically, it means your audience is mostly newcomers and you show a huge **** *** to a big chunk of a 30 years old franchise man... Because yes, many of us consider his "clown college posts" as extremely true and to the point. When you think about it, the fact he is taking it with humor and is never inherently negative (I could take example on that) is commendable, because here, we've been waiting for a Heroes game we can enjoy for a decade, not even counting people not playing h5. "Let that sink for a bit". ...

Despite the way you responded I do appreciate that you took some time to post here, as it shows you do care in some way about criticism made on this board, otherwise you wouldn't even lurk in the first place, am I wrong? Did you ever ask yourself, why the criticism from fan communities is so harsh on h7? Not necessarily because you screwed up, but mostly because of the persistent rejection and contempt the "MMH7 Team" has shown to any of the constructive side of the community. Three VIPs have complained many times on this board about their input to be downright ignored, two out of these three have been kicked out from the group probably because they shouted too much (at least is what I deduce knowing them ) and you show no intention in trying to fix things and relation with... well... fans of the brand. Ok ok many of us flamed a lot, me in first line, but it didn't start like that if you remember well, even during the fan day where we met things weren't that bad (Ashan got bashed alright but you have no part in that, and I was still defending and even believing in Limbic by that time). A nasty cycle has started to take shape between both players and developers, and I certainly don't say all the blame is on your side regarding dreadful absence of diplomacy, but you certainly know deep inside, fighting with the people sharing the passion of HoMM can't be right. I don't say you need to blindly listen to all suggestions, but, maybe consider them? Like really, some of the things I see are getting patched up in the XPAC but what was the Shadow Council for? Hero specials in example were pointed out still early enough to change them, Ubi-Nox even posted these were placeholders if my memory serves me right... But the state that we've arrived on must be changed, I mean ffs some fans are wishing for Ubilimbic to quit, I understand that is hard, you obviously commit yourself into this very exigent game, but in some cases putting ego aside is best, I learned that the hard way myself. There is no harm in dismissing a nihilistic approach.

So yes, I get it that you barge in here posting without the source code profiling a game is not possible and with it would take a full year using maybe this, so you turn this thread in derision, because yes, this is not our job, OF COURSE we don't know as much as you do in game development and are aware of it, actually no one claimed so, despite all the witty remarks that only came out of frustration from a non working product and a final result in design that I in example feel betrayed about. But please, and I appeal to your common sense and humanity, do not think we are delighted of the situation and are ejaculating among ourselves in our negative feedback as you tend to think ("circlejerk is what corresponds most") because this is not true and you probably know it, all we ask is for you to do make a game we can play and enjoy, the moment you do that, all the criticism or hate will vanish and all will be forgiven to show praise instead, because we will be enjoying the new Heroes game.
But understand our skepticism has attained a new type of climax, I would say legitimately.
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Aionb
Aionb


Known Hero
posted August 25, 2016 09:33 AM

I would like to thank Galaad for the post above and to Madao for this one:

Madao said:
verriker said:
to be honest with you, all this talk and arguing and guff, is way more than such a momentous failure of a game and team deserve lol

so, I do agree with those whining about the pointless cyclic discussions, all is said and done really and it's just a race to the bottom, so probably more mature to take pity on the usual suspects and let an echo chamber have its fun,

when support for the game ends (soon enough lol) I will make the effort to scale back my posting in this place and avoid upsetting deranged vocal minority, only posting where there is something novel to contribute (like to give somebody information or Vivendi takeover news and so on) lol


To be honest back at you, your posts here is what got me trough this entire enormous thread, not the brilliant humor but the quality of it all. Truth is an excellent weapon of choice dude, and you've been using it like a master for a very long time here, I wish it was recognized more 'cause it ain't some magical clairvoyant power it's just a common sense speaking out of you in a clear and often hilarious voice.
Even if I do have a soft spot for humor I always end up taking your points very seriously because they are clearly backed up, so whenever you get that tingling sensation to post something don't hold back

I'm not trying to make it sound like u are to be looked at as privileged, special or anything, it's more like your strong uniqueness has won a rightful place so just keep on doing whatever it is that you do man, it's brilliant and worthy of attention


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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted August 26, 2016 05:07 PM

Aionb said:

@ SoilBurn: you are right and I apologize to all for my outburst. I edited my post, in order to stick only to the product and nothing more.


Good example of self-moderation. Even though this thread started out as a 'come at me bro' as Elvin put it, eventually it sparked some interesting discussions (although heated). Even Oak was brought out of the woodwork (pun intended).

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